Deuce Spade

Not on topic, but I once broke my right pinkie punching my monitor soloing a Stalker after CoV came out. It is still bent funny to this day.

I was mystified by the "scrappers are nerfed brutes" thing too, but he's probably measuring the class differently than I am.

Ah, well as long as you aren't disparaging Bill. That's the important thing here. See? More light sarcasm, and no vitriol.

No, they are pretty great.

I don't think scrappers need any more damage for any reason, really. They're probably doing a little too much right now for balance between ATs. While the pylon tests aren't indicative of real game situations, there shouldn't be so many scrappers out damaging stalkers, given their focus on single target damage. Regarding point three, I'm not suggesting anything about scrappers needing taunt in case a tank isn't there. I was asking how much it disrupted play if a tank wasn't there. Since most of the complaints about more scrappers getting taunt aura seem to revolve around tanks losing aggro, I have a couple more questions. Do other ATs pull aggro off tanks, or is it a scrapper-only phenomenon? Any blasters or stalkers or brutes ever have it happen? Just so there's no confusion about the point of my question - 1) I really want to know, and 2) the answer should help us identify whether taunt auras are indeed a problem with teaming, or whether tanks need a taunting buff, or if losing aggro occasionally to other ATs is part of the tank game that needs to be managed, in much the same way that people think runners need to be managed without a scrapper taunt aura

That's fine. I didn't complain overly about it because this is the internet, and I could be reading tone wrong. Also, what you think about my playstyle or me isn't keeping me up at night, so carry on :-). <edit> also, I'm still baffled that people think mobs running away adds a level of difficulty or a challenge, or fun. To me, it's just a pointless amount of extra time I spend, not a problem I have to figure out on the chessboard.

Having the taunt aura is also a non-issue on teams, or so I imagine, so I'm not convinced this changes the scrapper into anything. Do teams regularly refuse to take the scrappers with taunt auras now? Do those taunt auras keep tanks from holding aggro? If there is no tank on the team, do those taunt auras make things harder or easier for other players, or are they barely noticeable?

Woah, I think you need to back up a second. If there were complaints to be made about tone in this thread, I'd be the one on high ground. There have been many, many comments suggesting people who want taunt auras were less than intelligent (jamoke) and bad players (need to scrapper harder) and lazy (had to touch my keys during combat). Given that, I'll use light sarcasm as I see fit, and I suggest you give my comment another look, as there was no vitriol there at all.

I have a fire/fire scrapper, a MA/SR, a StJ/DA, all at level 50. They are stripped of enhancements and retired, but I have them, and I played them. They are playable in a solo situation, and I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but they are definitely hindered by the lack of a taunt aura. The difference is so noticeable that I can't make myself play the other sets anymore, and that's the only reason I want the change - I want to play them all without feeling like I'm spending extra effort and time. I want them to be reasonably close in performance to the taunt aura sets. I'm not interested in farming with scrappers (or anything else really, it's mind-numbing). I want balance between the scrapper secondaries for the same reason most posters here argue for other balance changes.

I don't have a single problem with tanks, but that is an original and elegant solution.

Yes, that's definitely it. I am a noob and I need to learn to play.

That was my last 50 on live. He was very fun leveling. Very engaging, and /regen is maybe the only secondary that wants mobs to leave. Not my preference either, but I can't argue it would make more sense. If that happened I would just quit playing scrappers, and stalkers would be my melee dps choice. There is a reason they aren't as popular as other melee ATs, and it's lack of taunt aura (and ok, some sets with shitty AOE). I was blown away that this topic generated such controversy, but I suspect it comes down to playstyle. People who mostly team, or team often, won't be as bothered by it. People who solo most often are going to be very bothered by it, particularly if they have high difficulty settings and mobs are more likely to hit that -health threshold instead of die. <edit> and to be fair to other posters, there may be someone who genuinely likes running after mobs heading in different directions. It's baffling to me, but I guess it's a thing.

This is a pretty good explanation about mobs running, and tracks with what I've observed and reported in this thread. It also explains why I see it more on /SR, as they both miss lots of attacks and hit the -health threshold.

If you're using the slow aura on /Ice (which I love), the only one that would perform noticeably different from all your other taunt auras would be /nin. I notice the problem most on damage aura secondaries without a taunt, but for whatever reason my AOE primary /SR toons also. Do any of those other toons share a primary with your /nin guy? If so, you can make a half-assed comparison that way.

To clarify, I don't think most people are experiencing runners the same way I am, judging by the offered solutions. I generally have a problem when I've wounded a large number of guys but not killed them yet. This happens with most AOE sets, and having a damage aura without a taunt component can compound the problem. A single target attack doesn't help me, with apologies to the ranged attacks in claws and spines. AOE damage with mitigation can be good and bad, depending on how many it leaves alive to tear off running and how fast it will recharge. In reply to Bill above, I don't think it's worth the time. There hasn't been a genuine effort to discuss the problem from almost anyone, just disingenuous and condescending posts supermansplaining how to fight runners. Predictably, most of the answers aren't as comprehensive and effective as the post tone would suggest.

There is one primary I can think of that could adequately stop runners, and that's ice melee.

I've been hooked on Crusader Kings 3 during the pandemic. Between that and City of Heroes, I haven't really needed another game. CK3 may be my favorite computer game of all time, and I'm embarrassed about how many hours I've logged playing.

I agree tanks are intended to be useful. They still can be, more in some cases than others. What I disagree with is the idea that taunt auras infringe on this and create an imbalance between the ATs that reduces the effectiveness of, or invalidates entirely, tanking ATs. Scrappers had taunt auras, unless I'm remembering old INV incorrectly, from the start of the game.

The thing that arguments in favor of provoke (or taunt) miss is that it's limited to 5 targets. The thing "brutes and not scrappers are designed to tank" misses is the presence of taunt auras on some current scrappers. It also assumes a need for tanks, and that scrappers will be stepping on tank toes.

That's a reasonable argument as far as I'm concerned. Personal preference not painted as anything else is perfectly valid.

Clearly.

I had to look up jamoke to see that it's an insult, which does increase the sting, so well done. Most people arguing for taunt auras don't seem to be doing so out of a need for more influence, so I'm not sure why that was even brought up. Since all you folks with "build around it" answers don't accept the argument that taunt auras make the game more fun, in that they reduce the frustration of chasing after otherwise weak and relatively non-threatening mobs in most cases, could you show me how you're doing it? I propose you build one of these scrappers that overcome the runner problems, whether through use of provoke or slow or immobilize interface, and compare how effective it is against a scrapper with taunt aura. I'd like to see how effective your strategies are in a side-by-side comparison. If there is no significant difference (or even, say, a 10% variance) in clear times, I'll agree that scrappers have no need of taunt auras. If there is more, you guys agree that while the question of scrappers needing taunt auras isn't settled, that these arguments don't hold water. The problem of difference between secondaries could be minimized by comparing the taunt aura of /EA with non-taunt /SR. Still apples and oranges, but with the dps increase of each being tied to recharge, it should be about as close as we can get. If someone has a better suggestion, I'm open to it. You'd need the same primary, obviously, and the same pilot would reduce skill-based variance. I'd be genuinely interested to see how it turned out.

I wish there was one T4 Destiny that had the taunt aura from Melee Radial, no matter where they added it. I'd be able to enjoy /SR and everyone else could keep chasing their beloved runners.

I'm still curious about the arguments against taunt auras for scrappers. Bill covered the arguments for, but most "against" posts either a) /jranger or "no" or "let's not go down that road", b) involve some form of AT role or balance argument, where scrapper auras are invalidating tanks, or are a reason to buff brutes, or c) some variation of designer intent, where the player was meant to experience frustration chasing runners for choosing /SR over /INV or /EA. Does anyone have a reason not listed here? I'd genuinely like to hear another perspective.

I like the taste of your judges. It's nice to see some winners who look like superheroes.