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Blackfeather last won the day on October 27

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  1. I actually think Flash Freeze's changes are fairly reasonable myself - while Sleep powers do have their place, they're kind of conditional, and very easily broken out of. Adding in those ice formation summons was meant to help with that: occupy enemies for a little while even if they prematurely wake up. It even has the added bonus of causing enemies to waste a few of their attacks, which synergises well with Ice Control's focus on -Recharge as a form of soft control. Would be interested in @xl8's thoughts on the quoted suggestion though! While I mightn't think my proposed changes are overpowered, I'd like to see their thoughts on alternative proposals.
  2. To clarify, I compared Shiver to melee cone attacks to make a point about exactly how wide Shiver is: it's basically the biggest cone in the game. The thing about "maximising blast area" is that it has diminishing returns. So long as one's cone hits all or most of the desired enemies, it doesn't matter what distance one fires it at. And it's because Shiver has a 130 degree wide arc that one can achieve this at basically any distance. Basically, there's no need to step back to use a cone power if it's wide and long enough to hit all the desired enemies anyway, which Shiver absolutely is. Building on those previous statements, the proposed changes I've made to Shiver wouldn't encourage players to move away from groups of enemies like you're suggesting for a few reasons: The chance to Hold is designed not for continual lockdown, but at a start of a fight (i.e. before they actually dive into the fray) There is little incentive to use Shiver by backing away from enemies while they're inside Arctic Air Enemies remain confused only while inside Arctic Air Shiver's arc is wide and long enough to hit the desired targets even up close The control from Shiver is negligible and short compared to Arctic Air I also see Flash Freeze as coming very late into Ice Control's arsenal, and similar to how you find Shiver to be fairly skippable, I personally avoid AoE Sleeps in general, including Flash Freeze. A modified Shiver along the lines of my proposal provides options for breaking alpha strikes either way (albeit less reliably than Flash Freeze, but that's done on purpose).
  3. Well, that's simple enough to resolve: prevent the power from slotting the relevant IOs. What would you think of the power disregarding them? My main goal here wasn't to make Flash Freeze incredibly damaging, but to provide it with further utility even if the Sleep prematurely breaks. To some degree, I see where you're coming from: what I'm saying is that this isn't something unique to Ice Control. You might also like to look at @Sir Myshkin's post on Controller procs in general, and Ice Control's relative lack of opportunities for procs in its power selections. Something to keep in mind here: Earthquake can already slot IOs - my suggestion merely levels the playing field for Ice Slick. What is Shiver compensating for, out of curiosity? And on another note, have any thoughts on the suggestions I put forth for Shiver in the original post?
  4. Quick correction: Static Field takes 40 seconds to recharge. I actually don't really mind the fact that things like Ice Slick and Earthquake break Sleep effects, for the same reason that I don't mind other similar 'conflicting' powers in Control sets (e.g. Dimension Shift vs. Gravity Control's other powers, Spore Burst vs. Roots/Carrion Creepers) - stacking them together doesn't provide further control. Instead, they're better off being used in different groups of enemies to better lock down more of them at once. I make that distinction to compare it to what I see as a 'beneficial' change: AoE Immobilises and how they no longer stop enemies from being knocked down (i.e. via knockdown patches like Ice Slick).
  5. I've actually touched on this in the past in this thread of mine on how to improve Sleeps. Adding in some "secondary effect" related to the kind of Sleep made the most sense to me, hence the whole idea about summoning ice formations that enemies would need to break out of when Flash Freeze is activated. I'd envision something similar for Earth Control's Salt Crystals, due to them being similar-ish in nature, summoning fragile formations for enemies to break. For more traditional "making enemies sleep" (e.g. Mass Hypnosis/Mesmerize), I'm a fan of the idea of causing enemies to sleep on the floor, forcing them to stand up before acting.
  6. Honestly, so long as Shiver has the potential to inflict a status effect across multiple enemies that can temporarily subdue them for a short amount of time, I really wouldn't mind what status effect it'd end up being. It'd carry the main intent of the change: to provide Ice Control with another way of managing alpha strikes to some degree, without being 'as good' as the other Control powersets, which lack that -Recharge aspect. I went with Holds primarily for a few reasons: Harder to stack than Confuse, given the presence of Arctic Air Has the largest amount of potential for procs = larger damage source Is the same as Neurotoxic Breath, which seems to be Shiver v2.0
  7. If it's anything, I'm pretty sure the Pocket D VIP pass was something available in the P2W store for the same price - given that said power was subsumed into LRT, I think it makes sense, so long as it just unlocks LRT and doesn't open up all the teleportation locations at once.
  8. I did ping you to bring your attention to this thread for a reason. 😉 Like I've said previously... I'll also throw in my own personal experiences: I happen to like how cones play, and I see Shiver's shape as a feature, not a bug. While I'd be fine with it adopting a similar duration behaviour to how Blaster!Shiver works, I myself would find the power less appealing to use if it wasn't a cone. Given your stance on Shiver, it kind of leaves me wondering why you're personally not that sold on a 50% chance to Hold in it. You've mentioned this: But I don't really see how it being a big departure is a problem in of itself if it's solving tangible problems that you've got with the power, namely of it being easier for you to use at range than close up. Having a 50% chance to Hold gives plenty of incentive for it to work as an early alpha breaker (and from a distance at that), something that Ice Control is heavily lacking in outside of Flash Freeze.
  9. Hmmm...to be fair, most Control powersets have a single target Hold and an AoE Immobilize - these same things apply to them: Ice Control isn't really unique in that regard. That leaves Arctic Air and Ice Slick: Arctic Air is indeed quite potent, but so are other AoE Confuses in other powersets E.g. Seeds of Confusion and Synaptic Overload Unlike the others, it provides enemies with an opportunity to attack before it sets in Ice Slick is effective at mitigating damage, but not really sure it constitutes a part of an attack chain Unlike Fire Control's Bonfire, it doesn't actually do damage While we've all different methods of looking at this issue, I, along with @Galaxy Brain, @WindDemon21, and @oedipus_tex all do seem to agree that Ice Control is lacking in damage compared to the other Control powersets. Of course, some of this is offset by its secondary effect of -SPD, and naturally that's something to keep in mind. But I don't think that balance is quite there yet, and as such needs looking into.
  10. Hey there! That's exactly how it'd function - take a look at Force Feedback in Earth Control's Earthquake: it has a chance of going off upon activation. In fact, I'm pretty sure it'd be impossible for it to function in any other way, due to the power being a pseudopet. Talked about this to @Razor Cure a while back here. Out of curiosity, why would creating fragile ice formations along with Flash Freeze be overpowered? It's basically designed as a means of occupying enemies for a little while, even if they prematurely break out of a Sleep, if only for a few moments.
  11. Eeeeeeeeeh. Yeah, I know what set you're talking about: Earth Control. Going to point out that Earth Control shared the same issues with Earthquake and their AoE Immobilise and Knockdown cancellation, along with the fact that their own PBAoE Sleep similarly conflicts with it (and frankly, Salt Crystals could do with a similar change to the one I'm proposing with Flash Freeze). I've already explained my case for why Shiver and Arctic Air don't conflict: the 135 degree wide cone means that the user's basically hitting all your desired targets regardless of distance - take a look at how effective even melee range cones are at slightly smaller degrees, and then multiply that by the fact that it can reach further distances. It's one of the widest ranged cones in the game, if not the widest. I'm going to point out that none of those videos have Shiver actually being used in them - I don't think it's fair to make assertions about how a power can't be used at a close distance if the videos in question don't directly dispute that. 😛 Plus, even if your statements are accepted as accurate (i.e. that Shiver doesn't fit into any rotation well, and it's unwieldy at close range), that's frankly an argument for giving Shiver more ways of being useful. In this case, as a semi-reliable opener by having a 50% chance of a Mag 2 Hold. That'd give it a defined place in a rotation (locking some enemies down before getting into range), and solve the whole close range business (which I personally don't see as an issue given my aforementioned reasoning) at the same time.
  12. That's basically how Poison's Neurotoxic Gas works (25% chance for Mag 2 Hold via choking) - where do you think I got the idea of giving Shiver a 50% chance to Hold in the first place? Naturally, I'd be 'inspired' by Shiver v2. 😉 Though I'll say that I think that a guaranteed chance for lockdown would probably be a bit much, and I think @oedipus_tex and @th0ughtGun might agree on that. The former since they're fine with Flash Freeze being the only "alpha-breaker" in the set, and the latter because that might make Ice Control overly potent in the initial control department.
  13. I'm going to point out that Shiver is wider than the buffed Shadow Maul that the HC team implemented a while back, bumping it up from 'bad' to 'really good' - and at 'only' 120 degrees to Shiver's 135. Even Katana's Flashing Steel, one of the widest melee cones in the game at 130 degrees is narrower by a small margin. Both powers work excellently in melee range, and are both targeted in nature. I'd argue that if they can do so, Shiver belongs in the same category as them, if not higher, with the unique benefit of having a much higher range than them. While either of those two proposed changes would certainly make Shiver easier to use, I'd argue that it was designed from the start to work excellently regardless of distance of use from the enemy, and is thus not that needed. Plus, and this is of course going to be subjective, but I happen to like cone powers, and would prefer to keep one of the best examples of them around. 😛
  14. If it were any other cone than Shiver, I'd be inclined to agree with you...but it has a 135 degree arc, one of the widest ranged cones in the game, if not the widest. When Gale, with its 80 degree cone can push plenty of enemies away from point blank range, I don't really see this as an issue. If anything, I'd argue that the devs gave Shiver such a wide arc intentionally, because they were aware that Ice Control involves staying up close to enemies a lot of the time via Arctic Air. That being said, I'd be fine with getting rid of any damage additions proposed in my original post for @Galaxy Brain's proposal, or something along those lines - it sounds pretty interesting, if it could be implemented. Long breakfast, huh? 😛
  15. Hmm...I'll admit I'm relatively fine with what Shiver's able to hit at the moment - given how wide of a cone it is, it works well even at close distances (comparatively, Gale, even with its smaller 80 degree cone, is more than able to knock away any enemies that come close to the player), but those do sound like interesting changes. I think the biggest one would be one of the 180 degree melee cones (such as Pendulum), but as for cones with a proper range, I'm fairly sure Shiver is the highest - 135 degrees is a lot.
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