Blackfeather

Thanks for all the comments! It might take a little bit of work to go through each one of them, but it's great to see so many responses, it's much appreciated. Before I properly respond to them, I'll add another thing that I did find pretty interesting just recently, namely the comments found in the new Arsenal Control powerset feedback thread: A lot of the comments here were talking about a lack of consistently setting up Containment for Controllers due to lacking an AoE Immobilize - I think that's another good point towards considering getting rid of the mechanic in the first place; it constrains the development team's design of Control powersets. I'll add it in the top comment so that isn't missed!

Hmm...maybe they could become low endurance toggle powers? Like Lifegiving Spores from the Nature Affinity powerset. That'd let their recharge stay low without being able to stack multiples of them at once.

...and increase the Controller's damage scales to compensate. For people unfamiliar with the term, Containment is one of two inherent powers that Controllers have at their disposal, which lets them double the damage of some of their abilities against enemies that are Held, Immobilized, Slept, or Disoriented (the other gives them a chance to increase the magnitude of some of their status effect abilities by 1). This, however, leads to a couple of issues: Containment benefits some Control powersets more than others. Immobilises are generally the best way to capitalise on the double damage that Containment provides, and not all powersets have these (i.e. Mind and Illusion Control). Containment does nothing for enemies that are protected against status effects. To my knowledge, this is even tacitly acknowledged in-game - Controllers have this power automatically trigger against some incarnate AVs due to this protection (otherwise it'd never really go off). Containment doesn't double the damage of every power. Patch/pseudopet effects (e.g. Ice Slick and Enflame) are unaffected by Containment. As such, this is where my proposal comes in - removing Containment from Controllers should allow for an improvement in damage across the board, rather than boosting up some power sets more than others. As a bonus, it'd also mean not needing to pick any specific power just to trigger Containment, allowing for additional build flexibility. Thank you all for giving this a read! Hope it provides good food for thought. EDIT: Per my second post, I saw a lot of interesting comments in the new Issue 27, Page 7 Arsenal Control powerset feedback thread. A lot of them were talking about a lack of consistently setting up Containment for Controllers due to lacking an AoE Immobilize - I think that's another good point towards considering getting rid of the mechanic in the first place; it constrains the development team's design of Control powersets.

Oooh, this looks awesome! I've been finding myself drawn more towards controllers as of late - definitely will have to give this a whirl and see how that goes.

Added some extra details to the original post to include values for Illusion Control's AoE Hold for Dominators as well, now that they're going to be ported over.

The Blast T9s were definitely a useful reference point for me to readjust the AoE Holds - I bumped the recharge of them down to 180s (as opposed to making them lower) mostly because of them. Similarly, accuracy was boosted too (but less so than the nukes). I figured that the potentially longer duration of their status effects/debuffs would help to make up for their longer recharge times somewhat, not to mention their earlier access in comparison. I'll admit I don't know all that much about activation times, but if it means that powers can trigger earlier, that definitely sounds useful to change too!

Hello! Thought you might want to take a look at this proposal - give it a read if you'd like, would be happy to hear your thoughts on it.

Thank you, glad to hear you like the sound of this proposal! While the main focus here was more on making these powers do something against enemies with protection against status effects, it certainly does add to the damage capacity of Controllers (and to a lesser extent, Dominators) to some degree, something that the latter doesn't have very much in the way of.

Hey there, while this suggestion revamps AoE Holds across the board, it does include changes to Gravity Control as a result - think these might be something you'd like? Would recommend taking a look!

Thank you - happy to hear that the proposal's potentially an interesting one on your end!

Glad to hear you do like these changes! Some of the intent here definitely was to try and make them more desirable. There's absolutely plenty of ways to go about adding more effects to Hold effects, though it wasn't really something that I thought about at the time. Perhaps looking at D&D's Paralyzed effect would be a good place to start, which causes targets to take more damage, and is guaranteed to succumb to some kinds of effects (it also makes enemies easier to hit, but since that's already something that Earth Control does, it's probably not the best of ideas to step into its niche). But in lieu of that, each of the AoE Holds do at least have some kind of secondary effect now, meaning they'll both do more than just lock foes in place, while also still doing something even if they're used against enemies with protection against them, since unlike status effects, debuffs will always do at least something (with the exception of the effect given to Vines).

Interesting - does that mean that damage at the fringes will be less than directly in the centre for these powers? Additionally, I imagine Ion Judgement would have its damage decay over each jump in that case?

Hello! Per the explanation over here, the changes introduced to the AoE Holds shouldn't change anything enemy behaviour wise - they already draw aggro: To paraphrase, all AoE Holds are set to notify enemies of their use whether or not they deal damage, which can be seen by looking into CoD (check for the Notify Mobs: Always tag in Total Domination here for instance, but all other AoE Holds have the same behaviour). Similarly, other powers that don't deal damage can indeed notify enemies, such as Seeds of Confusion. Hope this clears some things up!

Thank you! I definitely tried to improve them in a way that didn't infringe on how they currently behaved and so on. Oddly enough, even powers that don't deal damage can notify enemies - Seeds of Confusion is the first one that comes to mind (which is what the Notify Mobs tag indicates in CoD; this can be tested by attempting to use Seeds from stealth and missing, causing foes to attack back), but even others like Salt Crystals, Earth Control's PBAoE Sleep alerts enemies of the user's presence. Mind Control has three exceptions to this, in Confuse, Mass Hypnosis and Mass Confusion, which are specifically flagged not to notify mobs. On the other hand, Total Domination, its AoE Hold, is indeed flagged to always notify mobs. This is the same for every AoE Hold power. Hope this clears some things up! Essentially, the AoE Holds never really had a form of stealth to begin with, even though they don't deal damage.

I never noticed that before, had to check that on CoD. That's definitely an interesting tid-bit! It seems like Superior Blistering Cold is the only one with a Mag 3 Hold attached to it, while Devastation and Lockdown are only Mag 2. However, Lockdown has a 2.5 PPM rate, while the others have 3. Definitely a little strange, but learn something new every day!

Ahahah! I'm glad I made the proposal sound appealing to the point of not wanting it from a mass-respeccing perspective. 😄

Hello! I'm happy to hear that the change to recharge speeds was well received. However, I'd like a little bit of clarification if you're alright with that - the addition of damage to AoE Holds was intended to be an improvement to them. In what ways does the change make them worse/in what aspects?

That's fair! Controllers especially don't have many ways of increasing the magnitude of their status effects besides hoping Overpower procs, which can be quite unreliable. If there were a way of increasing the chance of it triggering, that'd be quite nice, I think. I'm partial to the idea of increasing that chance based on the amount of status effects already applied on a foe, or maybe something based on how much health/endurance they have left. Maybe even having that Overpower provide a magnitude that's higher than just one too? It's part of why the bonus on Vines was a chance of an additional Mag 3 Hold - Plant Control doesn't really have much in the way of things to fall back on if their Seeds isn't strong enough to affect foes. And in a similar vein, why the additional bonus on Total Domination lets the rest of their controls last longer on foes; they don't really have any long lasting area effects like the other sets do, so they're relying on the duration of their status effects holding up.

Hello all! I’ve decided to take a stab at the Control sets in general this time around by addressing a pain point that’s common to a lot of them: there’s very little reason to take their AoE Hold powers. While they’re ostensibly designed to be an emergency button to help give teams a breather, in practice they’re often unnecessary and unwieldy for a few reasons: Low accuracy means that it requires slotting to actually work as expected Long recharge times mean they’re often not available when desired Other powers within the set often render it redundant for its intended use cases In the instances they are used, they can sometimes have little to no effect As such, the changes here aim to do a couple of things: Make these powers usable out of the box, removing accuracy penalties and increasing up-time Add other use cases for the AoE Holds outside of just being a panic button Avoid infringing on the current playstyle of each of the powersets (don't make the changes too drastic) I’ll have some further explanation of these changes (or lack of them) after this hypothetical patch notes section. Control Sets Revamp: AoE Holds Shared Power Changes Recharge time of all AoE Hold powers reduced from 240s to 180s Accuracy increased from 0.8 to 1.2, excluding Darkness, Earth and Illusion Control Damage added to every AoE Hold (actual amounts in the Details Table below) Darkness = 75% chance of scale 0.02 damage over 45s (90 tics) Earth = increased from 75% chance to 100% chance of scale 0.05 damage over 60s (31 tics) Electric, Ice = variable scale 0.5 damage to scale 3.0 damage Fire, Gravity, Plant = 10 tics of scale 0.22 damage over 8.4s Illusion, Mind, Symphony = scale 2.0 damage Specific Power Changes Chords of Despair Ranged AoE, High DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold, -Recharge Your audience falls into a deep despair, incapacitating them while they suffer from psionic damage. Stronger foes might continue to attack, but will do so at a reduced speed. Base -30% recharge for 18s Cinders PBAoE, High DoT(Fire), Foe Hold, -Range Incapacitates foes around the caster by whirling Cinders around them. The targets are left helpless, choking on the soot and suffering from fire damage over time. Even if not held, foes may still find the range of their attacks impaired for a short period of time. -60% range for 15s Flash PBAoE, High DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold, Sleep Generates a brilliant flash of light around you that painfully blinds nearby foes. Flashed foes are rendered helpless and unable to defend themselves. More powerful foes may not be held, but can still remain dazed for some time, regaining their senses after being attacked. Accuracy increased from 0.8 to 1.1 Inflicts auto-hit Sleep at scale 12 mag 4 Glacier PBAoE, DMG(Cold), Foe Hold, -Recharge, -Speed You can freeze all foes around yourself in blocks of Glacial ice. The targets are frozen solid, helpless, and can be attacked. Even after the victims emerge, they remain chilled and their attack and movement speed is slowed for a while. Glacier will also inflict cold damage on your targets, increasing based on how slowed your foes were upon its use. -Recharge/-Movement duration increased from 10s to 30s Inflicts cold damage based on -Recharge amount (before initial slow debuff) 0% = x0.5, 15.29 for Controllers, 26.41 for Dominators -50% = x1, 30.59 for Controllers, 52.83 for Dominators -67% = x2, 61.18 for Controllers, 105.66 for Dominators -75% = x3, 91.77 for Controllers, 158.49 for Dominators Gravity Distortion Field Ranged AoE, High DoT(Smashing), Foe Hold, -Speed Creates a large, intensely misshapen Gravity Distortion Field that encompasses several foes, rendering them unable to take any action and dealing smashing damage over time. This power can deal bonus damage when used against targets held by Gravity Distortion. Deals bonus Impact damage (scale 0.55) against targets held by Gravity Distortion Propel and Lift deal bonus impact damage against targets affected by Gravity Distortion Field Paralyzing Blast Ranged AoE, DMG(Energy), Foe Hold, -End Summoning a large amount of energy, you can completely paralyze a group of foes in cages of electricity for a short time, draining a lot of their endurance and rendering them unable to recover endurance for quite a while. Paralyzing Blast will also inflict energy damage on your targets, increasing based on how much endurance they had left upon its use. Utilises EndMod scales (1.1 for Controllers, 1.0 for Dominators) End Drain base value increased from 7% to 35% -Recovery duration increased from 8s to 20s Inflicts energy damage based on missing endurance (before initial endurance drain) 100% endurance = x0.5, 15.29 for Controllers, 26.41 for Dominators 80% endurance = x1, 30.59 for Controllers, 52.83 for Dominators 40% endurance = x2, 61.18 for Controllers, 105.66 for Dominators 0% endurance = x3, 91.77 for Controllers, 158.49 for Dominators Shadow Field Target (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Negative), Foe Hold, -To Hit You blanket a targeted area in darkness immediately holding foes within the field. Any foe who enters this area will begin to take minor negative energy damage, have their chance to hit reduced and has a chance to be held for a short period of time. Total Domination Ranged AoE, High DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold, -Res(Effects) Painfully tears at the mind of a target foe and those near them. Total Domination renders all affected foes helpless, lost in their own minds, and less resistant to other status effects for some time. These foes may suffer from psionic damage as well. Reduces resistance to status effects for 60s -34.6% for Controllers, -25.95% for Dominators Includes Holds, Stuns, Sleeps, Immobilizes, Confuses, and Fears Vines Ranged AoE, High DoT(Smashing), Foe Hold Creates a field of Strangler Vines that can Hold multiple foes at range. The affected targets are rendered helpless and slowly crushed by the massive root-like vines, and has a good chance of affecting stronger foes than Strangler does. 50% chance for additional scale 8 mag 3 hold Overpower hold duration normalised from scale 4 to scale 6 Volcanic Gasses Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Fire), Special, Foe Hold, -DEF You can tap into the geothermal power of the Earth and focus it at a targeted location. Foes that pass near a thermal vent will take minor Fire damage, have their Defense reduced, and be overcome by the gasses, leaving them choking and helpless. -15% Defense Details Table Powers Accuracy Recharge Damage Formulas | Archetype Calculations Base Effects Chords of Despair 0.8 → 1.2 240s ⇩ 180s 2.0 * Ranged_Damage (-0.3 * Ranged_Slow)% Recharge for 18s Controller = 61.18 Psionic damage Dominator = 105.66 Psionic damage Controller = -37.5 Recharge Dominator = -30% Recharge Cinders 0.8 → 1.2 (0.22 * Ranged_Damage) every 0.8s for 8.4s (-0.6 * Ranged_Ones)% Range for 15s Controller = 67.29 Fire DoT (6.729 per tic) Dominator: 116.23 Fire DoT (11.623 per tic) Controller = -60% Range Dominator = -60% Range Flash 0.8 → 1.1 2.0 * Ranged_Damage (12 * Ranged_Sleep) Sleep (Mag 4) after 0.25s Controller = 61.18 Psionic damage Dominator: 105.66 Psionic damage Controller = 22.36s Sleep Dominator = 17.88s Sleep Glacier 0.8 → 1.2 (0.5 to 3.0) * Ranged_Damage (based on foe -Recharge) (-0.5 * Ranged_Slow)% Movement/Recharge for 30s Controller = 15.29 to 91.77 Cold damage Dominator = 26.41 to 158.49 Cold damage Controller = 62.5% Slow Dominator = 50% Slow Gravity Distortion Field 0.8 → 1.2 (0.22 * Ranged_Damage) every 0.8s for 8.4s (0.55 * Ranged_Damage) Impact damage Grants Impact damage for Lift/Propel Controller = 67.29 Smashing DoT (6.729 per tic) Dominator = 116.23 Smashing DoT (11.623 per tic) Controller = 16.82 Impact damage Dominator = 29.06 Impact damage Paralyzing Blast 0.8 → 1.2 (0.5 to 3.0) * Ranged_Damage (based on foe endurance) (-0.35 * Ranged_EndDrain)% End (-1.0 * Ranged_EndDrain)% -Recovery for 20s Controller = 15.29 to 91.77 Energy damage Dominator = 26.41 to 158.49 Energy damage Controller = -38.5% End, -110% Recovery Dominator = -35% End, -100% Recovery Shadow Field 1.0 (0.02 * Melee_Damage) every 0.5s for 45s (75% chance) (-1.5 * Melee_Debuff_ToHit)% ToHit Controller = 75.07 Negative DoT over 45s (1.1122 per tic) Dominator = 75.07 Negative DoT over 45s (1.1122 per tic) Controller = -15% ToHit Dominator = -15% ToHit Total Domination 0.8 → 1.2 2.0 * Ranged_Damage (1.0 * Ranged_Res_Boolean) -Res(Effects) for 60s Controller = 61.18 Psionic damage Dominator = 105.66 Psionic damage Controller = -34.6% Res(Effects) Dominator = -25.95% Res(Effects) Vines 0.8 → 1.2 (0.22 * Ranged_Damage) every 0.8s for 8.4s (8 * Ranged_Immobilize) Hold (Mag 3), 50% chance Controller = 67.29 Smashing damage (6.729 per tic) Dominator = 116.23 Smashing damage (11.623 per tic) Controller = 14.90s Hold (Mag 3) Dominator = 11.92s Hold (Mag 3) Volcanic Gasses 1.4 (0.05 * Melee_Damage) every 2s for 60s (100% chance) (-1.5 * Melee_Debuff_Def)% Defense Controller = 86.20 Fire DoT over 60s (2.7805 per tic) Dominator = 86.20 Fire DoT over 60s (2.7805 per tic) Controller = -15% Defense Dominator = -15% Defense Detailed Thoughts I figured a recharge time of 180s would improve the up-time of these AoE Hold powers somewhat, while still retaining their role as a ‘backup’ control power to the rest of a Controller/Dominator’s toolkit. To put this into perspective, that’s still longer than any of the T9 ‘nuke’ powers from the ranged damage power sets – Blizzard comes out on top at 170s. I also decided to increase the accuracy of these powers to match their single target equivalents (excluding the patch Holds as they’re already in a good spot). This should help them to function out of the box, especially useful given how early some of them can be taken, letting them work as intended even with minimal slotting. In addition to this, some of the AoE Holds have the duration of their secondary effects increased, or even introduced in the case of Chords of Despair (taken from the secondary effect of Hymn of Dissonance), allowing them to have some kind of effect even if enemies are protected against them. For instance, Flash can now put most higher ranking enemies to sleep, even if it can’t outright hold them (I figured it’d be nice to extend Blind’s sleep effect to its AoE counterpart). And on the topic of additional effects… Why Add Damage? Perhaps the most controversial change here is the decision to introduce damage to all of the AoE Holds. While it’s true that this is breaking a trend (mind, Volcanic Gasses does do damage already – I just increased it here), I do think that this is a beneficial addition, both for providing some additional use-cases for these powers, and for improving Control sets as a whole. Controllers especially have issues damage-wise at the lower levels, and many AoE Holds come in relatively early, making these powers an excellent place to provide them with some much needed capacity on that front. Due to their high recharge time, there should still be plenty of need for other, faster recharging AoE damage powers to fill in the gaps – I don’t see it stepping on any toes. For the lower-damage sets, namely Ice and Electric Control, I took this idea further. Their AoE Holds have much higher damage potential...so long as they fully slow/drain enemies first. Electric Control’s implementation is basically an answer to Electric Blast’s Shocked mechanic, except within a single a power (Electric Control doesn’t really have enough damaging powers to make a one-to-one translation of that system over anyhow). Conclusion With these changes, I hope to make the AoE Holds in Control sets desirable and potent power selections. With a higher up-time, more forgiving accuracy, and a solid amount of damage (especially for Ice and Electric Control) alongside a smattering of secondary effects, they’ll hopefully be something that plenty of potential Controllers and Dominators might want to pick up more often. Thank you for taking a look at this proposal – I’d love to hear your thoughts on this!

New suggestion time: add busses to Paragon. While they're at it, pedestrianise places, reduce car lanes and add bike lanes, please. 😛

Taxis👏aren't👏public👏transport. Now a bus on the other hand...

Maybe like an inherent power that heroes can use to 'teleport' an enemy away from the battlefield that has a very long interrupt time?

A +Chance to Overpower for Controllers could be pretty neat. Maybe even within the archetype itself, scaling based on the amount of status effects/magnitude/damage already applied on an enemy, even if they aren't yet locked down?

I'm tempted to give Repulsion Zone something extra to improve Space Manipulation's personal survivability per @Completist's suggestion. My first thought is some defence (the ability pushing attacks away), but that'd kind if step on the toes of Force Field a bit, I think - it'd be like an immobile combination of Dispersion Bubble and Force Bubble. Maybe it could give a little bit of absorb while they're inside, similar to how Spirit Ward works? I'm having a harder time seeing how to justify that flavour wise though.

Glad to hear you like the proposed set! I definitely wanted it to fill an unexplored niche while also trying to keep it in line with current levels of power; I'm happy to hear it managed to pique your interest.