Galaxy Brain
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Posts posted by Galaxy Brain
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One thing I noticed is the 8 second window for stacks... attacking the same target repeatedly wouldnt give you 10 stacks even with the fastest chain available, this seems like it would be very reliant on the AoEs siphoning to achieve max damage buff. Not to say its a bad thing as that sorta limits the ST potential being too bonkers?
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It depends on the context.
A single damage proc will hit for ~72 damage which could account for WAY more than the -20% res of an achilles. An attack would need to deal 310 or more in order for the -20% to match or surpass the +72 damage dealt!
However, the -20% res will linger and effect all damage on the target. So an attack with 200 damage + 72 proc damage will be boosted from 272 -> 326 damage total. So unless you run with a team where you know they have -res procs everywhere it is usually a good idea to have it somewhere in your build in order to make the damage procs even better.
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5 minutes ago, Rudra said:
I don't think the base damage ever got touched. I would need to see a patch note that states they were dropped. As for the multiple bonus chances like with Inferno, the individual tics used to check to see if they applied. Now, they get applied with 100% chance as long as the target was hit. So that would mean the damage was max'ed out, not reduced.
(Edit: Though I think the total number of tics was reduced when they were made 100% chance to trigger, the lost tics were not equal to the number of tics that would routinely fail to trigger prior. For a net overall damage gain. If I remember correctly.)
Found it:
https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_24
All nukes, not just inferno, would have multiple bonus damage rolls thay could lead to much higher damage. When they got updated, the bonus procs were removed and the new damage values were made to be "about average" based on the odds / damage per roll.
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@Rudra, nukes definitely got smacked down in power level when their crashes were removed. Prior to that, they had IIRC higher base damage, but also multiple bonus chances to do even *more* damage. If I recall, inferno could do like triple what it does now with a lucky roll.
Way, way back in the day you could form dumpster teams where tanks would herd entire maps to one spot (usually a dumpster) and then folks would pile on Burn or just nuke all at once. Rapid fire nukes of today are incredible but they do not come close to that goofiness 😀
As for the topic at hand, its a mixed bag. IMO, the root issue is deeper where certain stats and pool powers flat out overshadow others even when theyre used as intended. Combine that with limited picks and it will funnel you to only certain choices naturally as you learn how the game works.
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Wait, are you suggesting I can't wear a supreme hoodie while using soul noir?
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15 hours ago, Puma said:
To be fair, Blizzard (which you used as a comparison) is the same in this regard. While it's capped at 16 targets, as targets die, it keeps dishing out full damage as long as more are running into the field of affect.
Right! Similarly, Cat 5 and Storm Cell to an extent also do this but have more time to toss folks in.
To me, it just feels like the set shines in scenarios where you can make a "perfect storm" / scales upwards very well when it comes to chewing through MANY targets big or small. Its a matter of finding those scenarios tho
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1 hour ago, Puma said:
First, thanks. Second,. again, you're assuming that the caster is doing nothing but spamming Storm Blast powers this entire time, which has been a huge part of my problem with the set, as explained here. I can think of no other set in the game that has made me feel like I can't use any of my other attacks or I'm missing out. Am I correct that you're also basing these numbers on it being three slotted for damage? I think we should be using non-enhanced numbers when we compare powers, personally.
As I said above though, Cat 5 is the least of my concerns with the set. I think Storm Cell is the real issue. Just for clarity's sake, none of the above affects and numbers of Cat 5 require Storm Cell to be active, do they?
Three slotting for damage should not matter as it's the difference between what you are comparing more than their individual values. Dividing the results posted by 1.95 will give the raw results:
Blizzard = 16 targets * 824.1402 = 13,186.2432 dam / 6762.176
Cat 5 = 16 targets * 131.0008 = 2,096.0128 / 1074.8783
Eye Wall = 10 targets * 628.7381 = 6,287.3810 / 3224.2979
Cat 5 Lightning = 5 targets * 121.9949 = 609.9745 / 312.8074
Total = 8,993.3683 / 4611.9837
Total = 20,582.8838 possible damage / 10,555.325
Comparing these values enhanced/raw will still be the same ratios as they are enhanced by the same 95% too:
Enhanced: Cat 5 No Lightning = 8,383.3938 / Blizzard 13,186.2432 = 63.57%
Raw: Cat 5 No Lightning = 4,299.1763/ Blizzard 6762.176 = 63.57%
None of the numbers rely on Storm Cell as posted above, just on Cat 5 + Being able to throw in Storm powers.
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1 hour ago, Puma said:
Can you show me how to quantify that? Since I'm going by what the character creator says, I don't know you factor in "chance to do x" damage. Especially give the fact that a big part of my point is it's the "chance to cause lightning" that -locks you into focusing on your storm blast set- to the exclusion of your other sets. I mean, we can't just go with it's chance to proc, because for that we have to assume you're ONLY using Storm Blast and never stopping to heal or buff others, or drop debuffs, or using secondary or patron or APP powers, etc.
I know you're a numbers guy so you may have a way in mind that makes sense, though.
Sure thing! So, first thing would be to look into City of Data: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.storm_blast.category_five&at=blaster . The site offers a lot clearer info on powers than in-game as IIRC the power detail window can be weird at times.
From that link, we can look at the different parts of Cat 5 and the damage they deal for a Blaster:
Cat 5 - Category Five
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=redirects.storm_blast.category_five&at=blaster
Summoned instantly, the "Category Five" part of Cat 5 hits every 0.2s (Activate Period, seen in Auto and Toggle powers) over 30s for a total of 151 hits (30/0.2 = 150, but usually the last "tick" has a hit, like if you look at Fire Blast it's DoTs are DoT every Sec for 2.1s, so it counts as 3 since it goes beyond 2 seconds).
Dealing 0.4449 damage per hit, x 151 = 67.1799 total damage. If we assume 95% slotting: 1.95 * 67.1799 = 131.0008 damage
Cat 5 - Eye Wallhttps://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=redirects.storm_blast.nukenado_pulse&at=blaster
Summoned after the 5s mark, this hits every 0.5s over 25s = 51 hits.
Dealing 5.0049 damage, x 51 = 255.2499. Times 1.95 = 497.7373 damage. A key thing here though is that this hits 10 targets per hit vs 16 on the base power.
Adding them together, Cat 5 passively deals 322.4298 -> 628.7381 damage.
Blizzard - Blizzard
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.blizzard.blizzard&at=minion_pets
Lasting for 15s, it hits as fast as Cat 5 above but for more damage per hit. 15/0.2 = 75 (76) hits of 2.7805 * 2 (Lethal and Cold) = 422.636, x1.95 = 824.1402 damage
Blizzard hits 16 targets the whole time, and deals its damage in 1/2 the time of Cat 5. However, it does not have the lightning procs:
Cat 5 - Cat 5 Lightning
Hitting 5 targets at a time, the lightning bolts hit for 62.5615 damage, x1.95 = 121.9949. The lightning also gives targets a 5s lockout from being struck again, so the most any one person can be struck is 6 times (30 / 5). 6 x 121.9949 = 731.9694 damage + 628.7381 passive damage = 1,360.7075 total vs 1 dude.
So while Blizzard deals ~30% more passive damage than Cat 5, Storm's Nuke can likewise deal 65% more when active.
...stuff gets complex when you factor in mob sizes + the different target caps / lockouts, but I can try to map that out:
Blizzard = 16 targets * 824.1402 = 13,186.2432 dam
Cat 5 = 16 targets * 131.0008 = 2,096.0128
Eye Wall = 10 targets * 628.7381 = 6,287.3810
Cat 5 Lightning = 5 targets * 121.9949 = 609.9745
Total = 8,993.3683
Assuming there are 16 targets, and lets assume each attack you toss out procs lightning, you can proc roughly once every 1.5s if we average out the cast times of storm powers.
16/5 = 3.2, so after 3 attacks (4.5s) you have hit all but 1 guy in the crowd, but by the time you do so the 1st batch of 5 targets are 0.5s away from being valid targets again. In practice, the varying cast times / latency / etc would likely make it so you do hit 5 targets every 1.5s or so.
30 / 1.5 = 20 total procs * 609.9745 = 12,199.49 damTotal = 20,582.8838 possible damage
So due to RNG, Cat 5 can be kinda hit or miss but combined with the other attacks you toss out during it, it can do tremendous bonus damage. Granted, it takes a good deal of time to deal said damage but it's there. If anything, IMO the fact it lasts a while means in any situation where you have more than 16 people (ITF fights for example) it will do WAY more output as you keep tossing targets at it.
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15 hours ago, Puma said:
Ah sorrry. I rearranged the order and forgot to change the damage section for Water. It's fixed now. Thanks!
Well there was that, and the total damage for cat 5 should be higher, esp of you include lightning
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57 minutes ago, Puma said:
3. Cat 5 - admittedly, this is the least of the three concerns for me. I'm a huge fan of Blizzard so I'm used to Nukes that aren't "nukes", but even then, why does this take LONGER to animate than Blizzard? The fact is, the design of Cat 5 seems to purposefully make it weak as a tier 9, and ESPECIALLY weak when you're teaming with others in this game. Here is a comparison of several nukes side by side.
Power Activation Damage End Cost Duration for DMG Blizzard
2.03 417.08 27.72 20s (w -rech/run speed) Cat 5 2.5 316.98 27.72 30s (w -rech/run speed) Thunderous Blast 2.93 300 27.72 Instant (+Lingering -recovery) Geyser 539.96 250.25 27.73 Instant Atomic Blast 2.93 250.25 27.73 Instant (+Lingering Hold) You may want to check your math on these.
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Lets use Fire Blast as an example. With only 95% damage boost via enhancement, lets see how many blasters within 1s of animation to get to the tootsie roll center of 16 minions:
Vs even level, it would take 4~3 blasters with 0 outside buffs using fireball at the same time to wipe out 16 minions depending on DoT
Vs +4, it would take more than 8 to roughly 6 to do the same given all DoT damage applies (over 2.6s)
Even vs +4, without any bonuses aside from what is slotted in the power (assuming you hit/etc), you would still see "wasted" AoEs even with a 1s animation
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7 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:
I think it would depends on the team?. A few blasters or even corruptors chaining their nukes could make SB feel slow when you stop to apply Storm cell and then the C5 and someone has already used their big nuke and wiped most of the mob.
Harder content could let SB shine a little more though.
Could, sure. Seems like itd be easy to try in game and provide results 🙂
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Skimming through this, a few things stood out.
1) if teams are clearing +4 mobs in less than 10s, are you really even contributing per person? Like if taking 2s of animation time means you miss out on that fight then I think there are bigger issues.
2) At the same time, that sounds very anecdotal. Does anyone have evidence of fights lasting this long on average / that they *really* are not contributing? Do you have results like @Ston where you actually compared sets back to back and showed tangible results?
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14 minutes ago, Puma said:
Can you give me some math on this? How is it MORE significant a damage boosting mechanic than simple rain of fire? Or a standard AoE attack?
Under OPTIMAL conditions how much damage can be expected with one cast of Storm Cell?
What about AVERAGE conditions?
Because I'm not ever seeing an amazing damage boost, but that could be perception issues and not actual numbers. If it IS actually doing significant boosts to damage more than, say, Rain of Fire or having a faster recharging added AoE attack, maybe we should have that damage a different color so players are more aware of it. Because right now I'm not seeing it.
It shows up if you show Pet Combat stats iirc
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7 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:
Blaster with 95% damage enhancement:
Cat 5 DoT = 130.14 dam of all hits connect (over 30s, 16 targets)
Cat 5 Eye = 487.98 dam (over 25s, 10 targets)
Cat 5 lightning = 121.99 dam (per hit, 5 targets. Per CoD, a single target can be hit every 5s so x6 at max)Blizzard = 406.65 dam (over 15s, 16 targets, 170s recharge)
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Blaster
Full auto = 375.8 average damage (over 2.5s, 10 targets, 60s recharge)
Full auto can be used nearly 3x more than Blizzard and Category 5.
FA 375.8x10 targets= 3758 damage with roughly x3 casts of Blizzard/Cat 5 = 11274 damage.
Blizzard 406.65x16 targets= 6506 damage
Cat 5 roughly 8k damage all targets, no procs.
Is this fairly close? rough attempt @Galaxy Brain
Pretty close I think! The weirdness with measuring it vs other nukes is that it has different target caps / lockouts it seems depending on the section of it, but when I napkin-mathed it you could probably proc every 2s on average assuming there are enough targets to push 9150 damage or more!
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2 hours ago, Mezmera said:
On that same token there was so many more people giving feedback to the dislike of DP's new Suppressive Fire on a range of things from the hold being less effective to proc damage among other minor things and yet it's going to get pushed through as is. And the best counter argument using faulty testing numbers was that there was no real change in damage when at first non testers were exaggerating it to being 16x more damage when they couldn't have been bothered to test the power set from the outset of the change showing just how much they like playing the set.
With regards to your AR it feels like they were looking for that one person to say it now breaks their immersion so as to reverse course and not give it to you too well. If the two AR players that don't want Aim are going to limit it's implementation there I'm sure DP players would like to take it off your hands and we can trade you this new 'improved' Suppressive Fire.
Been meaning to circle back to this, some screenshots in the spoiler section:
Spoiler
New character on Beta with the following slotting:Fighting AE Punching Bags in the published "Office Mission Simulator" (Arc ID: 23659) that have 0 resists
Vs +0:
Vs +1:
Vs +2:
Vs +3:
Vs +4:
The swings in numbers are due to the Purple Patch multiplying the total output vs my targets by lower and lower amounts the higher level they are. At +3, such as when you are an Incarnate with a level shift, will multiply the damage taken by 0.65x. Going by the 1st screenshot, the damage was:
51.29 x2 for the Suppressive Fire base damage (the second shot is a smidge higher cus defiance 🙂 )107.08 for Armageddon
71.74 for Ghost Widow's Embrace.
Multiply each by 0.65 = 33.34 / 69.60 / 46.63, which is backed up by the screenshot of Vs +3.
This is why the numbers I reported a little while back did not match up 1:1 from the tests vs a lvl 54 Cimorera boss.
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@Super Atom, @TotalThunder, your definitions seem to match mine in this case where a power can be "replaced" as long as the replacement has the same core. Ignite going to Incinerator for example was still an extreme Fire DoT. Beanbag becoming Aim loses the core entirely to become a totally different power.
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At a certain point I think its a tradeoff in favor of uniqueness. Cat 5 and Storm Cell trade burst for better performance vs meatier encounters. As an aside, this can allow you to slot powerful procs like Armageddon on another power like Chain Lightning which can go off way more often than in a normal nuke.
There are definitely missions where this setup would shine, and it works fine otherwise as a kit, so I personally dont see a massive issue with it not being as bursty.
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8 minutes ago, Sovera said:
Cat 5 is a special power though. Even though it holds a place we would traditionally call a 'nuke' it would not be too unlikely to compare it to a Build-Up or even Aim sort of power. It is less about doing damage by itself and more about making your other powers do more damage (that seems to be the intent and a mirroring of Storm Cell but with added bonus damage from Cat 5 itself).
This is very much a non traditional way of doing things and thus it cannot be a direct comparison. I'm not going to say it is a good or a bad experiment but it is an experiment on doing things differently.
But because it is not a traditional nuke it requires being tested outside of the normal box we put nukes in. This requires actual gameplay tests such as Trapdoors or whathaveyous. In this more complete test encapsulating Storm it does look like it works well (someone posted a three minute Trapdoor with a Blaster).
If you can muster the energy I would say try a couple Trapdoors (or whatever you might feel like) with that Radiation character and a couple with the Storm and even if it is not super scientific with so few runs but give us the metrics you got from it.
I agree with this take. @WindDemon21 / @Dispari, its tough to compare Cat 5 to traditional nukes due to the wonky target caps / duration. For example, CoD shows that the Lightning from Cat 5 has a 5 second lockout where it cannot hit the same target again. However that doesn't stop it from striking fresh targets in its radius which is where I edited the last post to show something like the ITF specifically being a great place to use it over normal Nukes.
If we are being generous, you can probably proc lightning on average every 2s, making 15 procs total that hit 5 enemies each for 122 damage. Assuming each cast hits a new target somehow, that can total 9,150 damage on top of everything else you are throwing into the mix. On top of enemies dying in the storm and freeing up targets for the remaining DoT / other storm powers.
As strong as Atomic Blast is in the last example, it has 1 shot to hit 16 targets where Cat 5 has dozens of hits to spread out over time if you can keep getting targets into the area.
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50 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:
Ok, now do atomic blast with aim, gaussians, and procs.
Also factor in that most mobs are dead WAY before those 30 seconds are usually up in most cases.
Like cat 5, ice blast really should have a special aim that lasts 20 seconds so it lasts through the full duration of blizzard/ice storm.
Likewise as mentioned storm really should have one thar can last longer for car 5 as well.
Additionally given this nature too I wouldn't think a lower rech something like 120-150s would be out of the question, even at the cost of removing the damage buff in Intensify with a longer duration given cat5s use.
Gonna ignore the special aim powers since thats another can of worms, but lets compare Super Atomic Blast to Cat 5 with 6 strikes of lightning:
Atomic with Armageddon, Purple Blaster Proc, Random other proc, Gaussians, Aim, and 95% dam = 1180.54 if everything lines up. 22% of EB hp.
Cat 5 with 6 procs does 1350.06 (25%) without such bonuses. Comparing it to the insta hit of Atomic is tough though as it can hit many more seperate targets over time compared to a traditional one and done nuke. Each minion defeated within a Cat 5 opens up the floor to another target getting hits, as opposed to only 16 total with Atomic.
In something like the ITF where you can get way more than 16 targets, especially meaty ones, in certain spots it will shine IMO.
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@Dispari, I like the comparison here, especially the gifs!
I was curious about this too and wanted to compare Cat 5 to Blizzard specifically last week on the testing discord, and got the following results:
Blaster with 95% damage enhancement:
Cat 5 DoT = 130.14 dam of all hits connect (over 30s, 16 targets)
Cat 5 Eye = 487.98 dam (over 25s, 10 targets)
Cat 5 lightning = 121.99 dam (per hit, 5 targets. Per CoD, a single target can be hit every 5s so x6 at max)Blizzard = 406.65 dam (over 15s, 16 targets)
This is kind of hard to compare given the different targets and the lightning procs, and how attacking with storm blast damages the enemies separately as well as proccing lightning but I can try to ignore that to see what Cat 5 can output by itself.
For the easiest scenario, lets assume you are fighting an EB. They have 5354.5 HP at level 50.
Blizzard vs EB = 406.65 / 5354.5 = ~8% of their HP.
Aim + Blizzard = roughly 576.1 dam = ~11%
Aim + Atomic Blast = 644.4 dam = ~12%
Cat 5 no Procs = 618.12 = ~12%
Cat 5 w 6 Procs = 1340.06 = ~25%
Granted, this will take 30s to apply in full but vs a meaty amount of HP the difference seems clear in terms of damage output even without a proper Aim power. Its not the best at instantly deleting trash mobs, but it appears to be much better at messing up bigger threats or LOTs of mobs over time given the 30s and lightning procs.
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14 minutes ago, kwsapphire said:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that if I cast Intensify AFTER Storm Cell and Cat 5, that it won't buff their damage, but it will buff the proc chance? So if I want Intensify to buff the damage component of my patches, I have to cast it first? If that's the case, I wonder how the damage actually compares.
Increased damage from Intensify for full 10 seconds on Storm Cell & Cat 5, but only 4-6 seconds to cast attacks in order to trigger procs
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No damage buff from Intensify on Storm Cell or Cat 5, but full 10 seconds to use attacks and trigger procs regardless of how many patches you lay down first
I was under the impression that most of the damage from Storm Cell came from using your attacks on mobs within it, not the power itself. So it seems like sacrificing the +Damage from Intensify for about double the amount of time for using blast attacks is actually the way to go?
That'd be the play yes. Intensify still buffs your Storm Blast attacks, and given it lasts 10s you get way more mileage out of more lightning per click + damage per click as opposed to a few seconds of boosted DoT / a few lightning with better damage
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20 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:
Illusion isn't built around the idea that the other powers in the set are deliberately hamstringed when used against stuff not aggroed by Phantom Army.
Looking at the set, I wouldnt say its hamstringed given the core blast powers all seem decent on their own. As @ScarySai mentioned there may be a bit more stragglers or spread but it doesnt seem "detrimental" if its not up.
Aside from the lightning, it seems only Gust gets a direct *offensive* boost when a target is inside your Storm as is... may be worth a run in the mission sim with and without to see how big the gap is.
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Out of curiously, has anyone tried content without using Storm Cell specifically to see if theres a *massive* difference?
Sorcery Powerset
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
Theres a lot of blinders going on in this thread... starting from the top:
Power Customization can only go so far. IIRC, things like making an alt theme for Fire Blast that uses the Beam Rifle for "fire rifle" is not feasbile due to the way the game is set up. Especially if you could customize each power to where Flares is from the gun, and Fire Blast from your hands it would break your character animations or something to that effect. The animations and emmision points for projectiles/FX are really baked in and make it very hard to swap around freely, especially with weapons involved. Im sure if they could have made swaps where you could use Crane Kick to shoot blaze ala Fire Bending, that would have already been tackled 😞
There are already sets that heavily imply an origin. For example, Traps, Robotics, Devices, and Assault Rifle, Arsenal Control/Assault all heavily imply the use of technology with the defaults/majority being all tech weapons or even typing on a wrist-pad to summon your powers. Demon Summoning blatantly uses demonic runes to summon your minions, as does Necromancy to a degree... though off the top of my head I cant think of any other magic-leaning sets aside from Sorcery Pool (obv), and possibly all the dark sets as they lean in on the netherworld. Bio Armor as mentioned also more leans on Mutation/Science. Point being, there is already precedent for some sets leaning more towards certain origins than others. A Sorcery/Magic/Arcane/Chaos blast set is not out of the question based on that, and if anything seems due to counterbalance all the tech-ish ones we already have!
That is not to say you cant hand-wave the how for each of these. Your robotics character could be summoning magically produced constructs, while your demon summoner could be calling up demons from a Doomdash service on their smart phone. That doesnt change that the default aesthetics sort of lean one way or the other and from point 1, may not be as flexible as we like but as players its our job to be creative with the tools we are given.
Aesthetics and Mechanics should have equal weight. Lastly, just because one set may be aesthetically similar to another, does not mean they would offer the same gameplay. Beam Rifle and Energy Blast both shoot energy at enemies, both can even knock back! However, both play out very differently witj EB being all about knocks and having a PBAoE nuke, and BR has the disintegrate mechanic and is more range based. Same with Elec Blast and Storm Blast both having electrical powers but one is based on sapping and the other location-based/debuffing. War Mace and Battle Axe even sharing the same animations but having power to power differences. So on and so forth. Just because you can currently emulate the feel with an existing set or there is something similar (elec/storm pre storm blast) does not mean a new set cannot be made that offers a different style of gameplay within that aesthetic!
The only tricky bit would be to find out what exactly "sorcery" would do to stand out. Fittingly, my mind immediately went to Cursing a target like with Beam Rifle, but then having different effects for Cursed targets than what we see in Disintegrate. We just gotta be creative is all 🙂