blazingcoconut

If you have worked with large code bases, it should be pretty clear that singular points of change are both easier and less risky and often very warranted. People often talk about raising the tide raises all boats... that's not true in a system like this. Take the changes to blast sets. Snipes are now both fast and hard hitting and nukes have no crash. Time to Kill Decreases. That fixed a lot of problems for blast sets by giving them better attack rotations and T9s that you actually want to use! That's great... Well... maybe not. It's great if you are playing someone with a blast set. But if you are a Tanker, Controller, Dominator, and to a lesser extent Brute, Defender and Corruptor, your job of protecting people just got a little less relevant. Controls and buffs are needed less because with those tight attack chains, things are dying much faster. After several changes like this, you start to have real issues with the purpose for certain types of powers. Why control anything when you could have picked more damage and just defeated them? Why protect people who already are soft capped to most everything? Why care about aggro when they die so quick that you can't even get it... or watch the blaster jump in the middle of a spawn anyway? Those issues can't be solved by a buff because the Time To Kill affects eveything. So you can give everyone more damage? No... that doesn't really help someone who wanted to play a support/control based character. You can change all mobs so they are harder. Yes, but that's a very large change and as I've tried (and maybe failed) to illustrate, large changes often have unforeseen consequences. So sometimes, it's not being lazy, but being prudent. Pick off a few of the really overperforming sets as a way to lower Time to Kill because it's a change that has less impact globally

You do not speak globally. There are plenty of changes in there that I think are good. There are people in this thread who have thought the changes are good. So they are things that people wanted. In your entire thread you confuse "what I want for my perfect MMO" with what everyone wants. They are not the same, and after reading the list not close for me at least. Again, you speak only for you. There were a couple of generic items that were fine, but I have no issues if they nerf overperforming powers. As it stands the power creep has made entire ATs struggle with their definition. That's a problem that can't be fixed by buffing everything. Because there are some outlier powers and a general reduction in negative ramifications for using things (crashes, etc) as well as the power boon of incarnates and IOs, controls and buff powers are no longer really needed in endgame content. You can't fix that unless you make some of those sets less powerful (or globally boosting enemies with things to combat it which is nearly the same). So certainly give your opinions, but you don't speak for me, and I would guess that you don't speak for a lot of people.

I have to say in most cases I don't enjoy the journey. Level 1-10 isn't a challenge it's a chore. You have limited abilities and the game boils down to using PTW powers to actually play. Level 11-22 is meh. You still don't have enough abilities to make things interesting. You likely have gaps in the things you need to be effective. Level 23-40 Is decent and probably the best CoH experience. Most ATs are balanced for their task in this range. However, I have already planned my final build. Having to spend 12million on a set that I'm not going to use once I hit 50 is annoying since even if I play normal, that's probably only a couple of days at best. Level 41-49 Also decent with more annoying groups. Most people in this range seem to just want to hunt council because people still don't have finalized builds and some endgame groups are far more annoying to play with no better rewards. However, AT imbalance picks up as kill speed increases. Level 50 You can finally make your build. However, because kill speed is through the roof, control and a fair amount of support powers are just pointless. Radiation Infection? You'll barely get it applied before the mob is nuked into oblivion as Incarnates pretty much skew any sense of team dependence out the window. Most mobs you'll get a single -RES out before they are dead. So yeah, the journey is not all that great for me. I'd rather powerlevel to 50, make my build with farmed inf THEN exemp/oboros down to play the stuff I didn't bother with on the way up. So while I respect your want to slowly level up, I'd rather quickly level up and then play the content I want from 1-50. I have a few characters who have done nearly every Oboros mission. Playing a controller from 1-32 can be a really crappy journey. Playing a controller from 1-32 exemped with some bonuses is much better. Other ATs have huge gaps too that are not too fun to deal with. For me it's a superhero game. I want flashy powers and cool stuff to use. It's just more fun to fight people with a full suite of abilities than waiting for one of your 2-3 relevant powers to recycle. But I also RP, so spending a lot of time leveling takes away from the real fun of the game 🙂

No offense but with those restrictions, pick a pair and go for it. You have so many caveats that you'll need to find a pairing that works for you.

Plant is a good contender for strong soloing. Fire, even without Kin is good now that bonfire can be a damaging knockdown field. Teams are fine until your late 40s where you may start wondering about your role in the group.

I've tried poison on a number of characters and my main is Plant/Poison troller. You can do well proc'ing it out. But what others have said is pretty true. It's an adequate set at best but if you are looking for an av killer, then they're pretty good. Weaken and envenom work really well together to keep you safe if you have some recharge to get them stacking. However... Only against one target. Yes there's splash, but it doesn't seem to be great that way and the splash radius is kind of small. Paralytic poison is a decent ST hold which can also be a good ST attack with procs. I like it a little better than most but the advice you are getting here is not wrong. Defender is probably the way to go... Water or dark is a good pairing for their heals in their attacks.

If your goal is to do as much single target damage as possible... Siesmic Smash is as good as it gets for controllers and single target damage. Drop fissure and proc out siesmic smash as it's amazing at boss killing.

Excellent, we're down to name calling. Which of the following is not true? 1) Against AV/Monsters many controls do not work due to the purple triangle mechanic. 2) End game teams kill things at a speed that renders control inefficient against anything but #1 3) Defenders are better buffers and can offer easier to apply damage. 4) Corruptor's have the same buff capabilities with a generally superior level of damage 5) Kill speed is the primary measure of success for many teams at end game. It's not longer can you get through content but how fast If you'd like to address any of those, I'm more than happy to debate. I'm not going to get into an e-peen argument over my skill level as that's irrelevant. I'd like to think I've mentioned that Controllers are my favorite AT despite their short comings in the end game. I've also stated that I pretty much design them to solo now because it's an easier play style and your controls are actually needed to survive unlike pretty much all team based end game content.

The comparison would be if defenders buffs basically stopped working against most content in the end game. At that point, what are they bringing to the table? They're are lousy blaster. In the end game, many controllers end up being second rate defenders. Because their primary controls no longer work, all they have to rely on is their secondary powers. Yes that's an over simplification, yes there are outliers and exceptions. However, the problem still remains, in that the primary ability of the AT no longer truly functions for the 50+ game.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying it is a near worthless contribution to any team in the endgame. I have now 10 level 50 controllers of which 6 are fully IOd out. A few of them can handle farms at +4/8 content on their own. So I'd like to think I have a at least a decent handle at playing my favorite AT. At 50, unless you are doing Hami, no one cares about control because things die so fast control is irrelevant. On the content where things don't die immediately, short of Hami, control is usually rendered ineffective by high Mez resists or purple triangles. No, I would not leave a anyone off a team. Most level 50 teams can handle under performing toons. Controllers are not so terrible that your team is fail for taking them. But, the team is worse for doing so. Without control, a defender or corruptor will be better for buffs and debuffs while providing better damage with blast sets. Without control any of the damage dealers will contribute more to clear speed. Controllers do decent damage but they do it over time typically. With nukes and incarnate nukes your damage you could provide is too slow and short of a few combinations worse than other ATs who can do a better job with buffing/debuffing. Solo, controllers are great. Kill speed is irrelevant and safety is important. On small teams doing 8 person content they can shine. On full teams I totally disagree that they serve any purpose that some other AT does not do better, assuming equivalent slotting. There are ways to fix it. Turning containment into something that does a debuff if you've applied a control to a mov regardless if it is controlled or not would be one way. It would put them on par with defenders at least for offering support for a team. But that would make a lot of solo controllers upset. Making end game mobs toggle off defenses from being controlled would help. Making end game mobs debuff the heck out of defense would help a ton. Even adding a bucket of health to mobs slowing kill speed would help. But every idea has impacts to other parts of the game. So I don't want to see a quick change. I would love this Dev team to think about how to make control relevant though. So that when you pick the AT you actually do the role you figured you were going to.

If I have no Brute, I take one. Otherwise if I lack damage, Blaster or Scrapper if I lack support, defender or corrupter if I want buffs/debuffs If I don't know my team comp, then Brute.

The immob is useful, I find often times as the only troller on the team that they do just fine whether I immob them or not. Most of the abilities you are talking about /cold /rad etc... Are better off coming from a defender as you're really talking key secondary powers that make those sets shine, and the immob is about the only thing we really contribute that others can't to better in much of the content. The thing we do, control, started losing value when the devs didn't want controllers making their end game content trivial. They explained this at length with the purple triangle change. Yet here we are... With much of the end game content trivial and controllers have their primary ability either neutered or irrelevant to much of the content still. There are effective pairings. Yes. However, it's not because they bring control to the end game. It's because they bring something else, usually damage or their secondary to the fight. Illusion breaks this with some interesting ways of making control work Controllers aren't terrible. I still love and play them, but they are not in a good place right now for endgame other than a few outliers.

There is some truth in this... However, this was also a design decision where the devs decided that beating up frozen enemies was not fun. So purple triangles came into play and so did Mez resistant mobs. Why that's not fun and having softcapped defense is still baffles me. But that's part of why this bugs me. It's not a balance issue it's a conscious choice to say we don't like the way this AT mitigates damage

I had not. I also hit domination which didn't help. Dark has -to hit which probably was enough mitigation to survive. I was playing plant / storm which did not have much other tools in the way of mitigation. I hadn't yet taken Snow Storm.

I have no issues with missions, like the Skulls arc that have you face an EB which warn you that you should bring a friend. That's cool, all ATs have issues with that mission since the EB is tough. This mission doesn't have that warning and isn't particularly hard for everyone that doesn't rely on holds as their source of mitigation. As I've been going through the levels I do find it kind of amusing how many hold resistant mobs are end bosses as well. Again it would be like if the beginning arc had mobs who had a powerful DEF debuff and a powerful RES debuff combined. That would make the mission hard for melee characters and sentinels. Which, I'd love to see more of, it would help the place of support in the end game. But that's where it belongs, the end game, not the intro arc. (You had a really nice reply, just pulling out this point really for discussion)

Dying is not bad design. But making a beginner arc that a lot of people solo and you are STEERED towards stupid difficult for 3 of your many ATs is bad design. Anyone playing this as a brute, scrapper, tank, stalker or a class that has enough damage to not care makes it easy. Playing it as a Controller or Dominator, especially Dom since you don't really have debuff is just painful. If this arc were later, I'd have options. I'd have a tray of insps and some slotting. I might have made friends to team with on it. As it stands the autocomplete button is the best option to tackle it for some ATs and that makes it really bad. I don't want an IWIN button or I'd just ask someone to PL me to 50. I want to play missions. Just commenting on the design of this particular arc. It's emperically bad. It would be like making an arc where foes have 90% damage resistance and def and res debuffs unless they are mezzed. If you were new to the game and ran into that with you brute or scrapper what would you think of the game? You might wonder why you are playing the AT you are playing. That would be bad design in a starting arc.

That's not the point. The point is that the 50+ game is all about damage. Somewhere in there the emphasis on survivability goes away and once that happens a troller is just not as useful as someone who can bring a nuke. I have seen post 50 blaster nuke a job and kill everything with maybe one follow up power. So then why would you want a troller at that point? I do agree they are the bees knees door soloing... Just not for team content

It was not always like that. At the release of IOs things were still in a pretty good spot. Damage was not through the roof, +4/8 content was still quite hard and teams did fail things. As a controller, I felt pretty good during that era of the game. Then the following happened: 1) Defense IOs/Incarnates made everyone into a mini scrapper/tanker When that happened, who needs a lot of control? If I am very durable there is no worry if the team draws more aggro. Sure, a person might die, but the team will just roll on. Damage becomes king because we're going to be successful no matter what happens. 2) Crashless nukes upped the alpha game When blasters can wipe an entire group before they can respond, then your damage as a controller pales in comparison. Many of them with IO recharge can have that up every or every other mob. Damage is the only real thing needed in most groups now and Controllers don't really bring much to the 50 game. There are some missions where it's needed, but in general, not so much. So... I find I farm +3/8 content with mine and am happy enough and don't have to worry about how much faster x class can do it than I. Someone else said just exemp and do 20-40 content and that's true as well.

As someone who mained controller's on live and has a ice/storm, plant/kin, Earth/Dark, Fire/storm and a few others that I can't think about now, I would totally agree that of all the ATs controller is the least needed at endgame short of a few missions. The trend started with IOs and continued with crashless nukes and incarnate powers. When live was a thing, and ITF was still hard, controllers had a definitive role; handle adds and help alphas. Even in endgame that role was pretty clear. Now the things we do are just not important when the issue is not if you will succeed but how fast. At that point a controller becomes a liability to a team since the don't contribute what the team needs, kill speed. Yes, Kin and a couple others help, but even Rad takes longer to set up their toggles than most mobs live. With that said, my endgame for controllers is solo farming which I find enjoyable because it's challenging again. When I can do +3/8 and be survivable enough to do so why would anyone NEED a controller to keep them safe. Yes, you can contribute to kill speed, yes, controllers can be fun, be but at the end of the day we're not that useful to most end game content. If you want that, brute, scrapper, corruptor, or blaster is what you want. Anything else is mostly a liability to some degree or other.

Yes, that would help for sure. Also some of the incarnate powers make a big difference. But I've been happy enough with cardiac and mu that I'm not going to test further.

Everlasting is the server that I am on. If you mean the Perf shifter and Panacea, yes, I have both of them. Alone they were not enough to let me cast at will. It's only been a combination of those, cardiac, and some decent slotting that has. Still I love the combination and I can farm +3/8 maps if I don't care about speed or +2/8 with reasonable clear times.

I played a Ice/Storm on Live and it was a beast. Since you had so many Proc options, it was fantastic. Now... with the changes to Procs, you just have to realize that you're not going to have much in the way of damage. Yes, Tornado and LS will help as well as whatever epic you choose, but it's just a slow go and very team oriented controller. On this server, I have left mine at 40 and had little desire to continue them. I imagine from 40-50 and post 50 they are okay, not spectacular, but decent enough. But nothing you can't get with any other power set. Ironically, at low levels, you're one of the better controllers as AA + SS will soft shut down just about anything. So yeah, storm is okay... but really, I'd do a different primary.

I would love to do Leviathan, but I think I would run into the same END issues as I did with Earth. Basically, you're gassed after a few moments of fighting. So fine if you team content, but bad if you like solo farming. Did you mostly team? I might be able to make the build more END efficient but at the cost of either less Recharge or less defense.

Controllers have always been in an odd place. On good teams, you're too slow to really contribute... but on good teams, you don't need to worry about doing much anyway. There will be times when things go south that your controls will be appreciated. Otherwise, no, you don't have a great place on a team. So use your KIN to buff and let other people do the damage. Toss out roots to keep things nice and tidy and have the creepers follow you around. It's not an insignificant contribution. Some slotting thoughts: * Tactics probably would do better with either of the other sets. One gives a 2% damage buff, the other gives S/L resistance. Both are better than a runspeed buff * I like LoTG in defensive slots to be combined with Red Fortune, which at 2 slots has S/L Resistance and 3 has F/C resistance. * I'm not sure I would slot boxing, you have so many better things to do than that. * In Tough if you get rid of the Karma slots and three slot the Gladiators Set, you get better bonuses and free up a slot since the Gladiators has a KB protection, you can free one slot * This one is a toss up, but 5 slotting Posi in Carrion creepers gives you more damage and if you keep up 2 Siphon Speeds you'll have it perma anyway. Plus +6.25% more recharge * Not sure on the value of Burnout. I'd probably rather have Disruptor blast to do something more with all the +DMG that you get from FS * Sprint is a great place for Celerity + Stealth * If you replace Combat Jumping with Stealth, you get the same defense and with Celerity now have invisibility to just about everything * The defense bonus from Edict of the Master only applies to the Tarantula and Audry, not you. You probably knew that, but I don't see a ton of value in that IO, it won't help the pets much and you could use the slot to help FS.

...and update. The build with Mu mastery works SOOOOO much better. Having that 30 second END reset is a godsend for a build like this. Before I had to really think about which power to use and if I could afford it. Now, I don't have to. I can double up LS and toss tornadoes like they are going out of style. So yes... if you're building a Fire/Storm, consider the END use. Final Build: 20-30% defense all around Softcapped to S/L/E and good (45%) to F/C resists Much friendlier on END Slot efficient in that it doesn't use +KB Resit IOs instead uses set bonuses for that. A END reset every 30 seconds Perma Hasten No heal, no Max HP Kill times on the battle maiden map went from 2 minutes a group to 1 minute a group which is a pretty amazing change. While I haven't made as many runs, there are no deaths so far at +2/8. Might be able to do +3/8 but we'll see. Final build: Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Kylie: Level 50 Mutation Controller Primary Power Set: Fire Control Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leaping Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Char -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(5) Level 1: Gale -- ExpStr-Acc/KB(A) Level 2: Fire Cages -- SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(A), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(5), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(17) Level 4: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7), RechRdx-I(21) Level 8: Hot Feet -- Arm-Dam%(A), EndRdx-I(9), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Arm-Dmg(11), Arm-Acc/Rchg(13), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(13) Level 10: Steamy Mist -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(15), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(29), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(43), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46) Level 12: Flashfire -- SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(15), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(25), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(27), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(27) Level 14: Kick -- ExpStr-Acc/KB(A) Level 16: Freezing Rain -- TchofLadG-Rchg/EndRdx(A), UndDfn-Rchg/EndRdx(17) Level 18: Cinders -- BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(23), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(23) Level 20: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), GldArm-End/Res(37), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(42), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(43) Level 22: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFrt-Def(37) Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A) Level 26: Bonfire -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(31), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(34), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(37), KBDist(40) Level 28: Hurricane -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), EndRdx-I(31) Level 32: Fire Imps -- ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(A), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(34), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(34) Level 35: Power Sink -- EffAdp-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), EffAdp-Acc/Rchg(36), EffAdp-EndMod/Acc(36), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(46) Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(39), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Apc-Acc/Rchg(39), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(40), KBDist(40) Level 41: Ball Lightning -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(42), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(42), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(45), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), PstBls-Dam%(50) Level 44: Charged Armor -- GldArm-RechEnd(A), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(45), GldArm-End/Res(45) Level 47: Tornado -- ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(48), KBDist(50), CaltoArm-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(50) Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Containment Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(9) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), PrfShf-EndMod(19), PrfShf-End%(19) Level 50: Vorpal Judgement Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface Level 50: Control Radial Embodiment Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany Level 50: Cardiac Radial Boost ------------