Werner

When I'm fighting level 54 enemies, they are usually +3 to me, so if I understand correctly, there is a 0.65 modifier to my debuff strength. So a 30% damage debuff ends up as a 19.5% damage debuff, and a 15% ToHit debuff ends up as a 9.75% ToHit debuff. Against level 54 archvillains, it appears that the damage debuff isn't resisted (? untested by me), so remains 19.5%, which is great, but the ToHit debuff slams into an 87% debuff resistance for about 1.3% ToHit debuff. Still something, just not much of something. I don't think the damage debuff behaves much like resistance. Here's how I think it works (please let me know if I'm wrong). Let's say I have 70.5% damage resistance, and stack on the 19.5% damage debuff against level 54s. I'm not now at 70.5% + 19.5% = 90% damage resistance. A 100 point punch would first be reduced to 80.5 points by the debuff, which hits my 70.5% damage resistance, allowing 80.5 * (100% - 70.5%) = 23.7 points to get through. Now I get hit by a 30% damage resistance debuff. Resistance resists resistable resistance debuffs, so I think my resistance is now 70.5% - (30% * (100% - 70.5%)) = 61.7%. I get hit by another 100 point punch, reduced to 80.5 points by my debuff, then to 30.8 points of damage that gets through. That compares very poorly to a true 90% damage resistance. Against the first 100 point punch, we take 10 points instead of 23.7 points. The 30% resistance debuff is 90% resisted, so is a 3% resistance debuff, taking our resistance to 87%. The second 100 point punch does 13 points instead of 30.8 points. 90% resistance is much more effective than 70.5% resistance plus a 19.5% damage debuff. For us personally, anyway. The damage debuff helps reduce the damage taken by the team. To an extent that's the Tanker's role, even if debuffs aren't the usual way we accomplish it. The ToHit debuff is more comparable to defense, though still not quite the same, of course, and mostly ineffective against AVs. On my Shield/MA, I do like how it stacks in a rough sense with Grant Cover to boost the defense of the rest of the team on the rare occasions that I team. With only a default slot in Grant Cover and Darkest Night, I'm typically providing 13.1% defense and 9.8% ToHit debuff, so in a rough sense, about 23% defense to any team members standing near me. Not bad. If I switch to a +2 Enzyme, that'd go up to 25% for only an extra 0.02 endurance per second. I can afford that.

Fire/Shield Scrapper. Concept character using a fire sword attack chain. Not great at anything, but sufficiently survivable with good sustained AoE. Used him for mostly casual farming and fun. I haven't tried the new Fiery Melee.

I took Gloom for DPS on my Shield/MA, so it was easy to also take Darkest Night. I slotted it with only an endurance reducer. I didn't slot for -ToHit because my defense was already over the incarnate soft cap with solid DDR, and I only need additional survivability against tougher enemies who will be debuffed less. Still, the difference can be pretty noticeable when I slap it on. It's not been a game changer for me, but it's been well worth the power pick. Edit: Maybe I should use an Enzyme?

You would tank just as well without it,, and Super Strength will feel powerful regardless of the numbers floating up. It's good for damage, but on a pure Tank, I'd say no reason to have it if it annoys you. Arguably it's the main advantage of Super Strength, but I think it's at least a fun set regardless.

You're right. Once you're up in the thousands of hit points per hit, how big a smashing/lethal hit you can survive is mostly academic, something that will happen only very rarely in practice. And yes, other sets like Invulnerability will be significantly better at taking the biggest hits, though I'm personally just trying to explore the question of using Tough on an SR, not compare to other primaries. The effective hit points you start with (9953 vs. 15,581) I think will make more of a difference more of the time, but in the face of the sort of massive DPS where any of this becomes relevant, it will only buy you a little time, like absorbing an alpha while wrecking the minions with AoE, until you hopefully reach a steady state with regen and heals at or before you hit 90% resistance. And yes, when measured as maximum steady-state incoming DPS at 90% resistance, the builds will handle the same maximum DPS, and the difference is just how many hit points they have left when they hit that point, 378 (3780 effective) or 945 (9450 effective). But while I've not really talked about it, that's a number I've cared a lot about in my historical Super Reflexes builds. Those effective hit points are the very reason I'm chasing resistance even knowing that either way I'll hit 90% before I'm dead. I want lots of hit points left when I hit 90%. Steady state survivability is just a number like the rest of them. Useful, and in the past a number I chased almost exclusively, but it isn't the whole picture either. Having 9450 rather than 3780 effective hit points when you hit 90% resists gives a lot more wiggle room, leaves a lot less to random chance. Like I run in and don't get that first ATO. Without Tough I'm literally down to 54 hit points before I'm at 90% resistance, 540 effective. That's a hit or two from death. With Tough, I'd still have 621 hit points when I hit 90% resistance, 6210 effective. Or I randomly take a big burst of damage due to some lucky hits. Or my healing procs just randomly don't fire off for a while when I really need them. These things matter, even if they're more difficult to quantify. Just like how defense meaning fewer debuffs matters, or how directly improving debuff resistance matters. All of it is hard to quantity, but it all matters, and it's a just question of how much, and that question isn't easily answered, I guess, or at least depends a lot on the player and playstyle. I tend to build for the worst that can happen, and I'm a lazy player, and I almost never use inspirations, so I want Tough. It suits the challenges I take on and my playstyle. So to me the answer is, "Tough matters a lot on SR Tankers, and I'm extremely unlikely to trade it for other benefits." You're perhaps being more practical focusing on the vast majority of cases where if you could survive with Tough, you'd have also survived without Tough. So to you it seems the answer is, "Tough is almost always useless on SR Tankers, and you're better off trading it for other benefits." I think I now see and even half agree with your perspective. Not for my own builds, but maybe I really should downgrade my estimate of the usefulness of Tough for most people playing SR Tankers in most situations. I guess I can be the exception and not the rule. So I guess I'll call Tough a 5 now - nice to have, important for some builds and playstyles, but unimportant for others and tradable for other benefits. Thank you for your perspective and this discussion. I feel like I've learned something. Not the numbers, but how to interpret them, how they apply to most people in most situations. An old dog can still learn new tricks, it seems. Thanks.

This analysis of Tough will of course apply only to smashing/lethal damage since that's all it's good for, though that's probably still the most common damage type. Let's take my build, ignore my secondary, and round the numbers a bit. I have about 2700 HP. I'm at 22.5% smashing/lethal resistance without procs or Tough. Say I average two procs for another 13.5%, so 36%, and Tough takes me to 59.5%. Ignoring the one-shot code, what would it take to one-shot me with and without Tough? At my full 2700 HP, without Tough it takes a 4219 damage hit to kill me. With Tough, it takes a 6667 damage hit to kill me (58% more). When the Tough build caps resistance at 945 hit points, the build without Tough is only at 67.5% resistance, and it takes a 2908 damage hit to kill me. With Tough, it takes a 9450 damage hit to kill me (225% more). When the non-Tough build finally caps resistance at 378 HP, it takes a 3780 damage hit to kill me either way (0% more). It clearly varies a lot, but over the whole range of hit points, a single hit takes roughly 80% more damage to kill me if I have Tough. Tough is huge. Still, OK, that's perhaps unrealistic. Though it happens, we're not normally taking huge multi-thousand hit point single hits. So let's assume the opposite, that the damage is done by a large number of small hits. I used a spreadsheet to look at what it takes to do 1% damage to me, 27 damage. So for example, without Tough at 2700 HP it takes 42 damage to do 27 damage. At 1620 our resistance has climbed to 40% due to the scaling resistance IO, and it takes 45 damage to do 27 damage. Things start ramping up quickly at that point, until we finally hit 90% resistance at 378 HP, and it now takes 270 damage to do 27 damage. It stays flat from there until zero. With Tough has a different curve, but it's the same idea. Add it all up, and without Tough, it takes 9953 damage to kill me. With Tough, it takes 15,581 damage to kill me (57% more). Tough is huge. None of this happens in a vacuum, of course. Skip Tough, and you skip Weave, which maybe isn't that useful but at least makes it easier to incarnate soft cap if that's something you're into. I'm into it. But you do get three power picks and some slots back, and you can do a whole lot with three power picks and some slots. And as I said, "Alternatively, run a build that cycles resistance powers. Arguably tougher in the right hands..." So yeah, Tough is huge for SR, but with the right build and the right playstyle, you may be able to get something just as huge by skipping it. But it definitely wouldn't be my default recommendation, or the simplest way to play. Advanced builders only, shall we say. 😉

Energy is much more common than toxic, and can hurt you. But I think you've pushed your resistance to both as far as is practical. You could push defense to ranged and AoE like I did to try to handle both, but since it's easily stripped away, it might well not be worth the tradeoffs. I think you're good right where you are for energy and toxic damage.

I don't have Savage Melee experience, but your slotting is similar to mine on my Dark Armor/Martial Arts. I built for more recharge and recharge debuff resistance to power Dark Regeneration, which I consider a key power. There are also differences geared towards soloing AVs with no minions around, such as Might of the Tanker in a single target attack rather than in the set-and-forget Death Shroud, and higher accuracy and healing on Dark Regeneration, which aren't relevant for most people. Higher defense, much of that due to Storm Kick, but defense on Dark Armor can be easily stripped away by defense debuffs, perhaps your primary weakness.

Or use inspirations! <shudder>

He means the hard cap, 90%. You'll be stacking more than one of the resist proc. You'll have scaling damage resist from the scaling resist IO. And biggest of all, you'll have scaling resist from your passive defense powers. On a good build, when getting beaten down, you'll see 90% resists. SR Tankers are easy to hurt, hard to kill.

10 on Tough. Not optional unless you're running a concept build, or only wanna be tough enough instead of even tougher, or because you're a rebel, or because you just don't wanna, or whatever. OK, nothing's actually mandatory, but I consider it a core power on a high-end SR Tanker. It may not look huge, but the more damage you take, the higher your resistance goes, and the more of a difference Tough will make. Overkill in most cases, but for max Tankiness I'd aim for 50% resist across the board with one Superior Might of the Tanker proc. I'd be trying to hard cap resistance with as many hit points left as possible. I didn't quite get there with the SR/Staff build I fiddled with, but came close. Then I realized how sad my damage output was and abandoned the idea. So you might need to compromise to get other important things, but 50% is my target, even if I miss the target in the end. Alternatively, run a build that cycles resistance powers. Arguably tougher in the right hands, but I'm much, much lazier than I used to be when my main was Regen.

Sure! Here you go. The defense is overkill for most things, but I wanted to be over the incarnate soft cap.

Plenty. I'd go Shield with a high-DPS secondary. Martial Arts is probably middle of the road for DPS, but I supplemented with Gloom, and I run Assault Core rather than something more survivabile. That gives me the DPS to solo lots of level 54 AVs without daggers or inspirations. Not enough for Giant Monsters with those restrictions, though. Maybe Energy or War Mace or something? Not sure what's best for DPS these days.

Yeah, I think with high-end endgame builds both are similarly broken with similar survivability and roughly comparable damage output. Both combos can beat a Werner rules ITF (+4x8 enemies buffed, no temps, no insps, no deaths), which I'm not saying is a perfect survivabiity test, just one I know both combinations can handle. My best time with amplifiers but no lore was 1:24:06. I think @Bill Z Bubba routinely runs it without buffed enemies, but that shouldn't affect time much, and without amplifiers, which would slow him down comparatively. I think I remember him still easily beating my best time? I think Energy is burning through the AVs significantly faster, while being only a little slower on the trash mobs. We can also look at Trapdoor testing. My Shield/MA average Trapdoor time was 6:38. Bill's Shield/Energy Trapdoor time was 7:48. But I was using amplifiers and T4 Assault Core, while Bill was using neither. I've never run the LRSF, so I can't comment on the best way to tackle it at max. Good to see it beaten by 8 Tankers, though.

Congrats! Yeah, if you avoid moving too far forward, you avoid triggering the Kheldian ambush. I'm not sure the exact area that triggers it, but if I'm trying for a fast time I stay back behind her and bring the enemies to me. Normally I'm doing a clear most and intentionally trigger the seafood buffet.

I'll add more praise for Invuln. For easy playing pure tankiness, I'd say Invuln/MA for the extra defense, but it's probably overkill on a team, and arguably overkill solo since you can get such good defense without it. I've played it, but play Shield/MA instead for my main. Invuln/MA was tankier, but Shield/MA puts out noticeably more damage without giving up too much on the survivability front, and I like more damage because I spend more time solo than as a team tank. But at least Shield has the nice team defense boost, and I combined it with Darkest Night's to-hit debuff. I'd probably stick with Shield/MA even if I was mostly team tanking, and just assume team buffs would make up for any relative weakness on the survivability front. "Relative" is the important word here. Shield/MA can just about sleep walk through a solo +4x8 ITF, enemies buffed no temps no insps no deaths. My Invuln/MA couldn't do it, but only because it doesn't have the solo damage output for all the AVs. It definitely has the survivability. So did my friend's Invuln/SS. And Foot Stomp is so, so satisfying. But so is Shield Charge. Unsure how Shield is at tanking Hami. I know Invuln can.

Not a tanker, but I leveled a SJ/SR Brute to 50 and had fun doing so, kitted her out with the best that money could buy, but then didn't enjoy her at all compared to other 50s, and quickly stripped her for parts, never to be played again. Meanwhile my Shield/MA Tanker is my highest veteran level character, and I love playing him. Everyone's tastes differ, of course. I do suspect that SR would be better in incarnate content, but don't know that from experience, and I built my Shield/MA with over 60% defense, so he'd probably be pretty good for it. You have to sacrifice more that SR would to get there, of course. Dragon's Tail, Shield Charge, and Mighty Radial for the win. Or at least for the fun! Single target I go Storm Kick -> Crippling Axe Kick -> Storm Kick -> Gloom -> Thunder Kick. Nice and snappy. Soul Mastery makes it more difficult to handle endurance than Energy Mastery, but helps the DPS for soloing level 54 AVs. I took One With the Shield, but need it so rarely that I usually forget it even when I need it. I did like the Street Justice animations.

Well... yes... but it's an i19 concept build - only fire sword attacks from the primary. I had a lot of fun with it, but you could have done better even then, and it's completely obsolete in the current game. Still, for everyone's amusement, some ancient history...

The Scrapper Challenge Rules were essentially the old Rikti War Zone Challenge Rules, which were: Solo a group of Rikti 4 levels higher than you that includes 3 bosses You must aggro and continue to aggro the entire group No inspirations allowed No temporary powers allowed No base empowerment buffs allowed No click accolades allowed No deaths allowed The first rule is about what you are fighting, so to make it more general, we simply drop that rule. And I think amplifiers are the same in spirit to temporary powers, so I would consider this a good current list for the Scrapper Challenge Rules: You must aggro and continue to aggro the entire group No inspirations allowed No amplifiers allowed No temporary powers allowed No base empowerment buffs allowed No click accolades allowed No deaths allowed This is often shorthanded to "no temps no insps no deaths", though technically that doesn't require all the above rules be satisfied. Note that the rules do not require +4x8 or any other difficulty settings. The rules are about how you're fighting, not about what you're fighting. You can technically Scrapper Challenge Rules a +0x1 spawn, for instance, you just won't impress anyone doing so. My personal usage of the term "Scrapper Challenge Rules" or "Scrapper Rules" or "Challenge Rules" may not always be consistent. It might depend on the challenge, for instance, such as in the case of the "Werner Rules ITF" detailed above. Those are the rules/settings I personally use for the ITF on my main Tanker, and I've probably done it that way well over a dozen times on him, usually as a kill most, without running to lose aggro, and without Lore. But those ITF rules don't require killing most, do allow you to run and lose aggro, and do allow Lore. I also normally run with amplifiers because I normally run all the amplifiers on my main Tank whatever I'm doing. I have run it without amplifiers and with player debuffed, though that was before the boost to enemy defense. I think player debuffed might be impossible for me now, and would be too painful for me to attempt in any case. There may also have been other recent changes affecting the ITF - I've not done it for a while or kept up with news.

I'm probably just justifying a fun pick, but I tell myself that I took it for the survivability boost I get from the knockup. It does give you a little breathing room.

That's with Cardiac Core (and Storm Kick). Also typically running Ageless Core, Assault Core, Reactive Radial, Mighty Radial.

I think One with the Shield is OK, but unnecessary. I do have it, but I didn't waste any slots on it, and I almost never use it.

Oh, it makes a great solo set too, even if I agree that it was designed for the teaming tank.

I ran an SR/MA Tanker solo through the first mission on relentless on beta. I don't have anything to compare to and haven't read other feedback on the new strike force, so I can't say if it went well or poorly, but it was slow going. Lots of pulling and running, and I did die once, but that was entirely due to my own stubbornness, and before I realized they were using Vengeance.

That's almost what I have on my Katana/Dark Brute, so maybe. My Preventive Medicines are heal and heal/rech, trading a little endurance reduction for a little more healing in AV fights. My Dark/MA tanker replaces Preventive Medicine with Touch of the Nictus heal and acc/end/heal, as I was already capping smashing/lethal resists. I don't like relying on the Theft of Essence proc because it might fail you when you need it most, particularly when fighting AVs, but it's still pretty nice.