Ljhalfbreed

Yep, my bad. It was an offhanded comment to try and limit the amount of folks that would (rightly or wrongly) then argue about ede-case loadouts, hyperspecific builds, and the like. I would like to think that there is some math out there describing basic expectations, but that doesn't seem to be the case, which is a shame. On the other hand, I was told that the scrapper pylon thread has folks posting non-scrapper AT times. I think that would be a relevant starting point to understand how to answer the question better.

I understand where you're coming from, but i was not aware that the scrapper pylon thread had folks posting non-scrapper AT times. I think it stands to reason that the thread would probably give me the answers I need. It has a single target with limited death-dealing powers, doesn't move so folks can't argue ranges, can be solo'd, and so on. The next step would be asking folks if they'd want to repeat their times while on a non-involved team (to maximize the stalker crit chances) and see how different the times are.

Okay... didn't realize that was for non-scrapper stuff. I'll probably get my answer there. Thanks so much. A pylon takedown would be just fine for most purposes. Again, i'm not looking for extremely specific loadouts or power picks. I'm just trying to find out 'which AT is supposed to be the ST king'. Gut instinct says that generally that would be Stalkers followed by scrappers. I'm just looking to 'prove' if that statement is true or false, again, speaking in generic terms.

That's kind of what I'm trying to get information on to 'prove', because it's not exactly cut and dry after the crit changes/etc. Just running around with a much higher base crit chance, and the possibility of insta-recharging buildup? That doesn't sound like spike or burst, that sounds like sustain... unless we are saying 'well the stalker will die pretty quick so they will never get to do as much damage as a scrapper.

What I'm pretty much looking for, realistically speaking, is exactly what you said in your first paragraph. So for example: "For general ST damage, Stalker > Scrapper > Brute > Tanker, for <reason>" The problem is that I don't know *why* that is, nor how to figure it out. I don't know what that 'reason' is other than some gut instinct, the feel of my different characters, and a bunch of numbers I can't quite figure out a formula for. Folks talk about burst damage, sustained damage, and so forth, but when I ask for the reasoning, there's a whole lot of confusion, withdrawal, etc. Back on live, I felt that stalkers were great for one singular damage burst. Hide->build up->AS->'follow up'->'follow up 2'. After the changes late on live, they were given a lot of new tricks between the ATOs (chance to recharge buildup, chance to hide), along with a scaling increase to critical chance depending on team size. To me, that *sounds* like they are capable of both burst damage and a whole lot of sustained damage over longer timeframes. Hypothetically, if a stalker can get twice as many crits as a stalker can in the same timeframe, then unless the stalker has way way weaker attacks, then (again, hypothetically) the stalker will out-damage the scrapper. Now the way the game is built, that also means that the scrapper gets a lot more in teh survivability (and AoE damage) department, but I think that's fair. All I want to do is be able to say "For general ST damage, Stalker > Scrapper > Brute > Tanker, for <reason>" and know what the <reason> is. Special cases like TW/BIo scrappers and whatever? Sure that's fine. I'm just trying to figure out where the ATs are supposed to stand, if that makes sense. Hahaha no. I'll keep playing what I got and roll up new characters for whatever reason. I don't have time for that either.

Okay then what's the comparison between stalkers and scrappers?

Again, how is it impossible? If I ask you which AT has the strongest buff/debuff values, which would that be? Would it suddenly be blaster just because they have a powerset that can slot a few extra procs? Or would it be defender, and you'd be able to back up your claim with "Here's the values for debuff scalars for these ATs, and you can see Defenders get the strongest magnitude/effect/bonus"? Or if you prefer... who does better single target ranged damage... Defenders, Corruptors, Sentinels, or Blasters? My gut instinct is Blasters because they have buildup and aim (or their equivalents) and higher ranged scalars for their attacks. That should mean that generally speaking, they'll put out a lot more damage than other ATs just from simple math. But all I'm hearing is that "It's apples and oranges, you can't compare them" like all the numbers and values are in this big black mystery box we can't view like it's issue 2 all over again, or worse... everyone is comparing Dark/Dark/Dark lvl 50 fully incarnated defenders with Sentinels they only picked power pools for going 'gosh this is too hard to figure out what's more numbers gooder' or whatever.

Please... either. Honest. I'm not picky at this point. My assumption from my playtime is "Scrappers are technically doing best sustained single target damage, especially with the combo of TW and Bio. Stalkers, however, are supposed to be doing the best sustained single target damage." From simple napkin math, it *looks* like this is the case, and is further exacerbated by larger teams. Stalkers get an increasing boost to crit chance the more folks that are on the team. Add in the ATOs, and it *looks* (again, i need to stress that it merely LOOKS) like Stalkers are supposed to be Single Target Takedown Kings and Queens, giving up a fair share of survivability in order to do so. Scrappers sacrifice ST damage to gain more AoEs and also more general survivability as a result. Seems like it makes sense on paper, and looking at the tooltips/windows in HC, and a bunch of builds created in Pines/Mids/whatever-it-is-now. Maybe we want to further break down spike vs sustain vs avg. Maybe it will never ever matter how much damage a stalker could put out (ST or otherwise) because they can never survive long enough to deal it all out. Maybe we can just point to a dev post that says 'Stalkers should never outdps scrappers because X. sorry'. Or "All scrappers that arent */Bio are all terrible and will be buffed down the line to compensate." Or whatever. It just feels like I'm taking crazy pills when I can say "What AT has the strongest support powers" and everyone will stand up in unison and shout Defender, and if I ask "What AT has the strongest ST attacks" and everyone goes 'well, just go google it I guess we're busy and you're being obstinate'. Heck, for part of a hot new york minute back in the day, /EM *blappers* were some ST dps kings. Sure they'd eat turf instantly as soon as an attack landed on them, but until that point, they'd be pom-pomming all kinds of mobs into the dirt with zero sweat off their backs. And if I said 'whoa wait, how are they the best?' and then someone would say "Well according to the damage values for these powers, when combined with buildup and aim, you can plainly see that the outgoing damage is incomparable to any other AT, regardless of powerset. If you could somehow keep this blaster alive long enough to cycle its attacks ad infinitum, the average DPS would be XXXXX, which far, far exceeds these ATs and powersets, which have a maximum of XXX under the same conditions." Why we gotta be difficult about comparing and contrasting Scrappers and Stalkers? I just don't get the reasoning behind the negativity.

That makes sense. I've got a TW/Bio that whoops serious booty. No bigs. But I also have a StJ/Bio that *feels* (and that's the operative word here) that it does comparable, or even *better* damage than my TW, at least with regards to single targets. It also feels like a moot point because we're trying to compare the whirlwind superpower of Titan AoE chains with 'lemme spam buildup during this sweet mostly singletarget chain'... but I never thought it would be this difficult to discuss. But is my math wrong, or my feelings wrong when comparing the two? Herostats seems to no longer work for me, nor SNBR. Pretty damned annoying to manually parse hundreds of combat lines, you know? I just figured i'd have folks be able to pipe up with a simple maxim of (for example) "Stalkers do best in single targets, scrappers do better with multiple targets." Instead I've got folks arguing that I don't know how to read Paragonwiki (which hasn't been updated since live, and it's never going to) and so on. Which hey, it's fine. Maybe it's a question that was never ever supposed to be answered. Maybe i'm secretly infuriating some hidden 'Protect our secret AT imbalance' crowd. Who knows? But I can say just from looking at pines (or the stuff in-game) it honestly looks like Stalkers are designed to be single-target focused for the most part, and Scrappers are designed to have a bit more AoE, with Stalkers trading off some survivability (that the scrappers get) in order to do CRAZY INSANE SPIKE+SUSTAIN DAMAGE, or whatever. But if I'm wrong in thinking that, I'd like to know why it's wrong, so I can learn. That's all. No ego. no fighting. just want to learn and understand.

Considering how many wide ranging changes have been made since paragonwiki was 'active', that's not the case. Heck, even snipes have been changed more often in the last month than would ever reflect on paragonwiki, for example. And if you could explain to me the difference between the apples and oranges (in this context), I'd greatly appreciate it. all I mostly see is folks saying "Well they're just *different*" without any explanation or otherwise quantifying the difference. Again, I'm not trying to be an obtuse idiot here. Are they two sides of the same coin, or do they fit disparate and unique roles? And of course, what's the data/etc that supports that? I'm not challenging anyone, I just would love to see some sort of explanation. To use your analogy, the responses I'm getting is "Apples and oranges are different, you can tell by the names. There's simply too many varieties of apples and oranges to tell you which one is which." Shoot, I know *someone* out there has done the calculations, especially when I see stuff like PPM google sheets and so forth.

Okay, and that makes sense. No argument from me. Now lets say the boss stays the same, but the team disappears. Who has a better chance of taking it out faster? Your 'average' stalker, or your 'average' scrapper? What about an EB? AV? I mean, i realize there are a lot of variables here, from how things are slotted, to *what* exactly is being fought and with what kind of damage... I don't expect a cut and dry perfect answer, as this isn't that kind of game. But what I am trying to figure out is what, exactly, is supposed to be the difference between those two ATs, and eventually, the other melee-focused ATs. I would like to think if someone asked "What ATs are the best at surviving" I'd probably have somewhat equal groups of people arguing Brutes and Tanks, and then someone would likely come up with a calculation describing Effective Hit Points (EHP), survivability metrics, or similar. For most cases? I'm sure folks would likely prefer tanking over bruting for the 'best in surviving' award, if that makes sense. Defenders would get the 'best at support powers' award. Who gets the best Single Target DPS award? Who can consistently take out hard targets? Is it Stalkers because they can combowombo hyperchain crits and hides and crits and buildup'ed crits? Or is it Scrappers who are designed to survive things a stalker just possibly can't ever, and win out over sustained metrics? Or are they really honestly neck and neck, and two extremely similar tools in the same 'toolbox', no different than a 10mm socket and a deepwell 5/8 sparkplug socket? THey're both really great at screwing and unscrewing (ha!) but have totally different applications and usage to do the whole screwing/unscrewing. (or you know, unbolting, if you prefer)

While I honestly do not want to start any drama, i'm honestly feeling like what I was "told" on the old live forums was either made up, a lie, or worse. I figured I could get a quick explanation, but it definitely makes me feel like I pulled a major faux pas. Which, you know... fine. I get it. Nobody wants to step on toes. I just would like to chime in on how I feel the tanker buffs "should work" but then I realized that I have almost no frame of reference. I figured with all the various theorycrafters, minmaxers, pvp'ers, pve'ers, and such on this forum, folks would be able to say something like (JUST AN EXAMPLE) "Scrappers out-dps all current melee ATs, except for X, Y, and Z combos for A, B, and C powersets. If you want to max out single target damage with little regard for any other metrics, pick Scrapper and go with AA/ZZ combo" Again... that's *for example*. I'm not new to the game, I'm just not sure entirely what changed between say... i23 and HC (and the patches inbetween). And I feel like it's important to know that. if folks don't want to talk about it, that's fine.... but you're the first person to point out that 'we don't talk about it'.... so thanks i think... Much appreciated for the response. Have a good one.

Okay cool. thanks. Now how, and why? I mean, is there a 'timeframe' where they excel in, or is it a general average, or what? Again, i don't mean to come across as confrontational or a giant jerk. Honest. I'm just hoping someone can explain to me if they're supposed to be better (at ST damage) the same (again, in ST damage) or worse (again, just ST damage) than scrappers (for example). Looking at the powersets and the numbers, it *looks* like Stalkers excel at those single-target takedowns, and start to crumple a lot faster than scrappers in the same scenario once you start adding additional enemies. On the other hand, scrappers seem to have much more aoe, and less single target. Just for example... In a pylon test, (one single target), should scrappers be doing better, worse, or the same as a stalker with a comparable loadout/etc? And now is that the way it's *supposed* to be according to what the devs here on Homecoming want, or is that something that should (*eventually*) be addressed?

Okay, and that's fair. I expect certain powersets/combos to excel at in certain situations. But are stalkers supposed to be better, worse, or similar to scrappers? And if so, in which ways? I mean, it's easy to point and say "Hey, Scrappers get way better defenses/etc so they can survive some facetanking", but is that the scrapper's "role"? Or are they supposed to be deeps, or a mix, or whatever? Because in my head, my argument is that "If Stalkers are supposed to be kings of ST damage, with some of the lowest survival powers, then perhaps Tanks should be the kings of AoE damage, but with the best survival powers." Again, not trying to be difficult, and I appreciate your response. I'm just trying to figure out why folks are so adamant about not talking about this, you know?

Honestly? Yeah. because it seems like there's a lot of misinformation going around. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to figure out why it's so difficult to discuss this. I can look at a sheet/Pines/Paragonwiki and say "Oh hey, you know what, this Tanker has a huge HP cap. They also have some pretty solid resistances. Against stuff that doesn't pound away at my Psi-hole, I can definitely say that it will survive a lot more punishment than this Blaster I never picked any secondaries for, just because the Tanker straight has better HP and better resists/defenses." I realize that DPS is a big ego thing for a lot of folks which is probably why I'm getting flak here. I'm not trying to start crap. I'm honestly trying to determine if the following sentence is true (for example): "Stalkers generally out-damage Scrappers at the Single Target level, when averaged over time. Scrappers outdamage Brutes similarly. And Brutes outdamage Tankers under those same conditions." I mean we can argue all kinds of stuff about what types of enemies, their con level, resisted damage types, and so on and so forth... I get that. There's a dozen or more combos for practically every powerset. BUT, there's only a handful of ATs. If I was wanting to be a solid team buffer and supporter, would you recommend I play a Defender, or a Blaster with the medicine and leadership pools? Defender, right? Because they have a distinct set of powers with the supplementary effects/etc to help them achieve that, and generally achieve it better (again, on average) than say, a Blaster using pool powers. So, how would I calculate this kind of thing to determine if Stalkers do the same, better, or worse DPS than Scrappers? Brutes vs Tankers? Tankers vs Scrappers? The big kicker seems to be those recent-ish changes (i21? 22?) to the stalker archetype that added additional chances for crits and so forth.... but was that to set them apart from scrappers? Balance them with scrappers? Make them better at a specific task (eg: single target damage)? Differentiate them to where scrappers were better for sustained dps, and stalkers strictly for spikes only? Instead, when I ask the question, folks get standoffish and defensive. I'm just trying to get a question answered honestly. This isn't some weird powerplay ego stroke BS, i just want to know *how* they're different, if at all, how best to calculate and display it, and of course, how best to understand it. Considering that the beta is discussing changes to tankers (that may/may not seem as though it'd affect the capabilities of brutes), i want to make sure I'm understanding what the current devs are working with, and not just assume "Well, stalkers were absolute garbage when I first tried one in issue 6, so they're still trash obviously". Stuff changes, you know? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, and make sure i'm not furthering BS/misconceptions/lies if I say "Well Scrappers are always going to outperform Stalkers in single target, and it becomes more obvious when you compare a Broadsword Scrapper to almost every Stalker powerset combo, and you can verify this with this calculation <calc here>" Does that make more sense?