Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Galaxy Brain]

This thread used to be called "What would be a good slap on the wrist for TW?", but after much discussion it has come to light that the metrics used that make TW stand out are not really reflective of normal gameplay. 

 

If you check the latest pages, we are designing a more solid baseline test for melee sets to gather proper data without the involvement of IO builds or other outside variables.

 

-More to come-

 

 

Unpopular..ish.. opinion time. Titan Weapons have been an outlier set for every AT that has them but for some reason is never talked about as a point of balance. 

 

You can look at any "best X" ranking and see TW on there somewhere, and it seems that even over time the set does not have a flaw outside of getting used to the ebb and flow. Whacking the numbers of the powers doesnt feel right as you should feel super strong when you hit people with a telephone pole, but what about reducing the time that Momentum is active by like a second?

 

This would have minimal impact on the day to day play of the set, but better bring it in line with other melee sets over time. 1 less second is 1 or even 2 less activations you can squeeze in for maximum dps before going slow again. Cutting that down a smidge will still preserve the feel of TW while not making it as outstanding from the rest.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Steampunkette]

I'd go the other direction.

 

Increase the window for Momentum by 1/2 second, but increase the animation times of all momentum swings by 1/10th of a second without modifying the damage of the attacks.

 

You'd get the same amount of attacks during your momentum window, because it would last longer to help with the increased animation times, spreading out the damage by about 1/2 second. (Since you get 4-5 attacks during a momentum window)

 

For simplicity's sake let's say all 5 attacks in the window do 100 damage and have an activation time of 1 second.

500 damage over 5 seconds is 100dps.

And here all 5 attacks in the window do 100 damage and have an activation time of 1.1 seconds.

500 damage over 5.5 seconds is 90dps

 

1/10th less DPS without reducing the DPA of any of their attacks.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Auroxis]

It would destroy attack chains players are familiar with (no 2nd Follow Through) so that's a no from me. If a change is made, then it shouldn't be jarring and disheartening to the players used to playing the set. Especially in this game where being OP isn't that big of a deal.

 

Remember that while TW is the top performing set in the end-game, it's also the most difficult one to play and is slow to get going in the leveling phase.

[Galaxy Brain]

Eh, I wouldn't say its difficult. But even still, it is the top performing by a huge gap and even while leveling you can see it has an edge.

[DSorrow]

26 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I'd go the other direction.

 

Increase the window for Momentum by 1/2 second, but increase the animation times of all momentum swings by 1/10th of a second without modifying the damage of the attacks.

 

You'd get the same amount of attacks during your momentum window, because it would last longer to help with the increased animation times, spreading out the damage by about 1/2 second. (Since you get 4-5 attacks during a momentum window)

 

For simplicity's sake let's say all 5 attacks in the window do 100 damage and have an activation time of 1 second.

500 damage over 5 seconds is 100dps.

And here all 5 attacks in the window do 100 damage and have an activation time of 1.1 seconds.

500 damage over 5.5 seconds is 90dps

 

1/10th less DPS without reducing the DPA of any of their attacks.

If TW is actually so good that it warrants nerfs, I'd go with something like this.

[Rylas]

I'm hesitant about good performers getting nerfed. Energy Melee was a good example of how knee-jerk reactions to perceived issues can be devastating to a set and player morale.

 

Not that I'm denying TW might have balance issues. Something continuously hitting the top of the charts *may* be cause for concern. But that doesn't automatically mean it's over powered. What kind of gaps are we talking about in performance to other sets? We need to see number comparisons and we need to weigh in trade off's that might justify the performance.

 

For example, Energy Melee was all the rage for it's single-target DPS and boss killing speed. But its AoE output was always trash, and in some standards didn't perform as well as other sets for clearing maps.  I don't want to turn this into a quasi-EM thread, it's just a good example of how lightly we need to tread in this area. But I'm open to hearing arguments if game balance is truly an issue. 

[Auroxis]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Eh, I wouldn't say its difficult. But even still, it is the top performing by a huge gap and even while leveling you can see it has an edge.

I'd say it's definitely the most difficult due to the way Build Momentum disrupts your attack chain. This is coming from a pylon tester with the top time for Tanker TW.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

I'd say it's definitely the most difficult due to the way Build Momentum disrupts your attack chain. This is coming from a pylon tester with the top time for Tanker TW.

I guess I cannot speak for this since I have a bias from fighters when it comes to "difficult to play". That said, it still seems even if it is the hardest set to optimize, it has a big gap over other sets for both ST and AoE when its available, and I'm not sure how to quantify X difficulty for Y gap there...

 

[Haijinx]

I think we have to be really careful to use things like Pylon times or popular opinions to determine outliers.

 

More research is probably needed to determine how "overperforming" it is.

 

And of course there is the classic IO/SO problem.   It doesn't seem to be nearly that great on SOs, the recharge times are pretty long.

    

If you are going to nerf a set, you need to be careful.  Don't do another Energy Melee.

  

 

[Haijinx]

Ill also note EM was around for a lot longer than TW has been .. 

[Galaxy Brain]

EM was over nerfed for sure (so was regen), so yes we should be careful 

[Force Redux]

No nerfing. Just boost the low performers.

[Haijinx]

I was of the opinion TW probably needed toned down.  But now I am not so sure.  

 

Even for Pylon times I have questions, for example seems a lot of ILL controllers do just as well on the Pylon as TW.

 

And I have seen no comparisons of SO performance at all.    

 

Would take a lot of convincing.  

[Black Zot]

16 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

No nerfing. Just boost the low performers.

 

This.  Nerfs are categorically the wrong direction for anything that doesn't outright break the game somehow, and TW doesn't do that.

[Galaxy Brain]

It's not that they're underperforming, it's that TW had a big gap over all other melee sets.

[Haijinx]

So far the only evidence of this gap is pylon times for IOd to the gills builds.

 

That is why i changed my mind, no one has demonstrated this gap in other instances.  

 

TW has three issues that I see as a set. 

 

First it burns tons of Endurance.   More than other end hog sets.  

 

Second, it needs a lot of recharge.  You spend a lot of time waiting for attacks.  And even so it still feels like you don't have enough end.  

 

Third, it doesn't have any quick fast attack outside momentum.   So those enemies with just a sliver of health become annoying.   Feels clunky to que up one of TWs ST attacks out of momentum to finish them off.

 

The first two seem like where the "TW isn't good till IOs" come in.  With enough recovery, end red, and recharge performance must go up a lot.  Seems reasonable, since the tradeoff for its drawbacks is big orange numbers and a bursty DPA increase.

 

So it really does seem that you are asking to balance a set around IO level performance.  

 

Which they don't do anywhere else.  Even the classic EM nerf was before IOs. 

 

[Infinitum]

47 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's not that they're underperforming, it's that TW had a big gap over all other melee sets.

Because its a later designed set that takes into account how the end game content, IO set bonuses and unique set mechanics play.

 

Its fresh unique and awesome because more time went into designing it.

 

The same focus needs to be applied to the underperforming sets.

 

Not nerf the ones that make you feel awesome especially when the don't break the game.

 

I never understood why melee sets always get looked at first for nerfs when you have troller teams zerging the map and single controllers soloing giant monster's.

 

Not that I have any issues with that, I do that also, have no issue with it, I love it actually, but why is a melee set always the first to catch attention when there are other functions way more overpowered feeling than the melee set?

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So far the only evidence of this gap is pylon times for IOd to the gills builds.

 

That is why i changed my mind, no one has demonstrated this gap in other instances.  

 

TW has three issues that I see as a set. 

 

First it burns tons of Endurance.   More than other end hog sets.  

 

Second, it needs a lot of recharge.  You spend a lot of time waiting for attacks.  And even so it still feels like you don't have enough end.  

 

Third, it doesn't have any quick fast attack outside momentum.   So those enemies with just a sliver of health become annoying.   Feels clunky to que up one of TWs ST attacks out of momentum to finish them off.

 

The first two seem like where the "TW isn't good till IOs" come in.  With enough recovery, end red, and recharge performance must go up a lot.  Seems reasonable, since the tradeoff for its drawbacks is big orange numbers and a bursty DPA increase.

 

So it really does seem that you are asking to balance a set around IO level performance.  

 

Which they don't do anywhere else.  Even the classic EM nerf was before IOs. 

 

No it wasn't, I was IOd out for recharge when they came down.   Quit playing the game becuase they ruined my main that I had countless hours on.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No it wasn't, I was IOd out for recharge when they came down.   Quit playing the game becuase they ruined my main that I had countless hours on.

I assume you mean the EM nerf?  Maybe i got the timing wrong? 

 

I was pretty sure ET animation time happened before IOs but I could be wrong.  

 

Besides the point on this thread though.

 

Seems like you and I agree on TWs

[macskull]

Novel suggestion - leave TW TF alone.

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I assume you mean the EM nerf?  Maybe i got the timing wrong? 

 

I was pretty sure ET animation time happened before IOs but I could be wrong.  

 

Besides the point on this thread though.

 

Seems like you and I agree on TWs

Indeed we do.

 

TW could become a pumpkin at midnight real fast if it was messed with.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I assume you mean the EM nerf?  Maybe i got the timing wrong? 

 

I was pretty sure ET animation time happened before IOs but I could be wrong.  

 

Besides the point on this thread though.

 

Seems like you and I agree on TWs

Yeah July 2008 I think was the ET nerf, it was a patch not an issue.

 

Issue 9 was invention system may 2007.

 

I remember not turning it back on till December 2008 for a few hours then not again till 2 months before sunset.

 

I was wrong there but I was so disgusted with the change I let my emotions get the better of me.

 

Wish I could have that time back.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

Soloing a GM is essentially a gimmick compared to 99% of the rest of the game. I could do this with my bot/trap MM on live before he was even lvl 38 due to how the debuffs work on GMs. 

 

I would love to see actual underperforming sets boosted up, but look at how that is handled with even suggestions to Super Strength which is a "good" set. To what metric would they be boosted? If TW is the hardest to master and had other shortcomings, I'm fine with it being the best raw data as long as it isnt like far and away the best by a wide margin for every category. Like if TW was still the best by a smaller gap, or if it was top tier in every aspect but not the absolute best in every aspect that would be awesome. This can be done either by tuning TW down a scooch (easy but controversial even if a wrist slap), or boosting all other sets (way more complex).

 

On top of this, the IO meta is essentially covering endurance issues, defenses and getting a bunch of recharge, with a sprinkling of procs based on your AT and powers. So most comparisons outside of procs is just looking at DPA assuming you have great recharge already. It's not like you can build for +damage as reliably / etc for alternate avenues until it gets to Incarnates at end game.

 

I went on a bit of a tangent, but I think the IO arguement isnt as off limits given that most players have tons of resources now to at least get a basic IO build on characters they want to invest time into. I've seen people on FB ask for IO advice using a picture they took of their screen using like an iphone6 😛 it's not as uncommon to get some bonuses worked in, and just by playing past 50 you work at Incarnate abilities. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Soloing a GM is essentially a gimmick compared to 99% of the rest of the game. I could do this with my bot/trap MM on live before he was even lvl 38 due to how the debuffs work on GMs. 

 

I would love to see actual underperforming sets boosted up, but look at how that is handled with even suggestions to Super Strength which is a "good" set. To what metric would they be boosted? If TW is the hardest to master and had other shortcomings, I'm fine with it being the best raw data as long as it isnt like far and away the best by a wide margin for every category. Like if TW was still the best by a smaller gap, or if it was top tier in every aspect but not the absolute best in every aspect that would be awesome. This can be done either by tuning TW down a scooch (easy but controversial even if a wrist slap), or boosting all other sets (way more complex).

 

On top of this, the IO meta is essentially covering endurance issues, defenses and getting a bunch of recharge, with a sprinkling of procs based on your AT and powers. So most comparisons outside of procs is just looking at DPA assuming you have great recharge already. It's not like you can build for +damage as reliably / etc for alternate avenues until it gets to Incarnates at end game.

 

I went on a bit of a tangent, but I think the IO arguement isnt as off limits given that most players have tons of resources now to at least get a basic IO build on characters they want to invest time into. I've seen people on FB ask for IO advice using a picture they took of their screen using like an iphone6 😛 it's not as uncommon to get some bonuses worked in, and just by playing past 50 you work at Incarnate abilities. 

 

 

No, stop with the tune it down a notch nonsense.  Crazy powerful stuff is what makes the game fun.

 

I'm not even sure where this comes from, never once have I been playing my TW tank and someone say man that needs a nerf.

 

Its mostly wow thats cool, that looks awesome, wow you just demolished that group.

 

It takes time, practice and lots of IOs to get to that point though.

 

Give the other sets that aren't doing well a mechanic like momentum make it their own.

 

Don't nerf the cool stuff that's just stupid.  Just look at EM now.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

Galaxy Brain,

 

You haven't demonstrated the set needs nerfed though.  

 

Haven't demonstrated other sets need buffed either. 

 

There is no data outside of pylon times for max IO incarnate builds.  Pylon times that even some of the old time pylon gurus suggest start to break down as a metric once times get below 2 minutes.  Which a lot of combos are doing not just TW.

 

Well that and data for what sets people play.. which is a pointless subjective mess.  

 

So you'd need more data, and more metrics.  

 

________

 

Also, if you were to nerf it, you'd have to do it in such a way you could still play the set on SOs and below level 50.   None of these suggestions seem to address that. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Haijinx
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