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Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance


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4 minutes ago, Hero Star said:

"When everyone's super, no one will be."

Unless its a game where you are supposed to be, and also at varying levels of being super and capable of doing it at least a thousand times anyway you choose.  Super, not as super, most super, totally overpowered, no toggles, Ill advised designs.

 

There js no excuse for having any issue in this game, because you are in the drivers seat.

 

Lile the people wanting to take dbl xp away, why?  You do t like it dont take it.  Dont take it away from people that like it.

Edited by Infinitum
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25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Me, I just don't want sweeping downward changes to melee.  If changes are needed it needs to be upward maybe not to top tier or above levels but upward then revisited later.

 

I think a big problem is we don't know what the target balance point is or should be.  No doubt TW is top shelf, but with a ton of drawbacks built into it.  I think there are 3 or 4 up there with it though - from a brute perspective.

I don't think anybody wants that. Earlier in the thread, for example, GM Sijin said that "The majority of those who have expressed an interest in reducing TW's performance have clearly been very wary of over adjusting it. You can bet Captain Powerhouse [the dev who would be making any adjustment] will be doubly so."

 

Hopefully, these tests will allow us to figure out where the balance point is. I expect to find some clustering, because like you say, there are a bunch of sets that all seem to be about equally great. But if that cluster is around 6:30 along with TW, that indicates something different than if the band is at 7:45.

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Just out of curiosity, how accurate is the dps analyzer in mids?

To my knowledge, it is potentially unreliable - I've seen people cite numbers from it that were clearly not plausible (eg, 400 DPS with an attack chain in which every power dealt <400 damage and took >1 second). I haven't used it enough to say exactly how it becomes inaccurate though. So, it may be useful, but apply a sanity check to whatever it calculates.

25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Btw. Haven't been posting as much because I have a sick kid at home, and im also having a UC flare, I'm not abandoning this topic and will help as much as I can, but I really don't feel well right now, so, sorry about that.

No problem. Get well soon. I appreciate your participation; the fact that you've been on board with our protocol tells me that we're probably doing something useful instead of just gathering garbage data.

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1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I thought we already decided that if it was within a reasonable range it wouldn't need toning down.

 

Motives do matter also, to pretend like they dont is naive at best.

The problem is the "reasonable range" is moving.  40% or so "over performance"  is now down to 6:30 vs  7:10 in a test that favors titan weapons (secondary with good endurance recovery, enemies that make it easy to maintain momentum and don't provide much of distraction from monitoring momentum)

 

I was thinking about this test and then thought man this is kind of thing that put blasters in such a bad place.  Even an assault rifle blaster could wreck this map far faster than any TW combination. The conclusion of course would be Nerf Assault Rifle !!!!

 

 

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59 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

And I don't disagree with that, I just didn't think it needed repeating because I just literally wrote that in the post preceding the bumper sticker:

 

 

What we currently have is some evidence that TW appears to be overperforming which indicates that it maybe should be toned down. We are gathering further evidence to determine whether this is also the case outside of some very clinical settings. If the new tests produce results that say TW is within a reasonable range of other sets, then that would be evidence that toning it down would probably be a bad idea, because tests in an environment that better represent the average game should have more weight than tests such as pylon times. If there's some other evidence, I'd definitely want to see that.

 

However, stating that toning TW down is killing the game or sinking the ship without any evidence just skips a whole bunch of steps that should be taken to arrive to that conclusion. Not to mention that speculating about motives of the arguer rather than discussing the actual arguments is just poor form on its own. It's also extremely unconstructive to categorically shoot down any test settings because they aren't perfect rather than contribute to designing a test that is satisfactory.

 

I don't take issue with either outcome if it is reached by sound arguments because I like TW in its current form, but because game balance is an important factor to me I'd be demonstrating cognitive dissonance to allow TW to continue existing like it is if it can be shown that it is overperforming. "It's ok that set X is an outlier" is mutually exclusive with "balance is important", after all. What I do take issue with is an argumentative style that is built on ad hominems, strawmen, red herrings, hyperbole and other rhetoric devices used to avoid directly addressing any points that are opposite to the arguer's stance.  

It's just PVE. Your entire argument here is 100% predicated on the notion "You hit that enemy harder than I did. I can't let that stand!"

 

Get over it already. Titan Weapons is well balanced with its limitations vrs strengths. How about just stop complaining for the sake of complaining and just enjoy the game? If you don't like something, don't play it.

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Just now, TheAdjustor said:

The problem is the "reasonable range" is moving.  40% or so "over performance"  is now down to 6:30 vs  7:10 in a test that favors titan weapons (secondary with good endurance recovery, enemies that make it easy to maintain momentum and don't provide much of distraction from monitoring momentum)

 

I was thinking about this test and then thought man this is kind of thing that put blasters in such a bad place.  Even an assault rifle blaster could wreck this map far faster than any TW combination. The conclusion of course would be Nerf Assault Rifle !!!!

 

 

i wouldnt call that overperforming at all though.

 

I missed that part, where did the 7:10 come from?

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1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

The problem is the "reasonable range" is moving.  40% or so "over performance"  is now down to 6:30 vs  7:10 in a test that favors titan weapons (secondary with good endurance recovery, enemies that make it easy to maintain momentum and don't provide much of distraction from monitoring momentum)

Literally nobody has said that this indicates over-performance. It is wildly premature to draw conclusions from 3 data points under a single test condition.

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6 minutes ago, Vayek said:

Titan Weapons is well balanced with its limitations vrs strengths.

Great! If that's true, it will show up in the data. If it isn't, we'll still get a bunch of useful quantitative comparisons of every melee set under a variety of conditions. Even aside from any possible balance adjustments, players are very interested in that kind of thing, so this is worth doing.

6 minutes ago, Vayek said:

How about just stop complaining for the sake of complaining and just enjoy the game? If you don't like something, don't play it.

Seriously, just stop. The only one complaining here is you. The rest of us are testing.

Edited by Hopeling
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12 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

i wouldnt call that overperforming at all though.

 

I missed that part, where did the 7:10 come from?

The 7:10 was my time using War Mace.   I considered it a good choice as it has straight up the easiest rotations in the game. I set up my power tray as

1: Whirling Mace

2: Crowd Countrol

3: Shatter

Shift 1: Clobber

Shift 2: Pulverize

 

And just went to town with 123,123, 123.  I could probably do better with a different keybinding for my targeting as I have it set up to target nearest not next at the moment. I could also probably do better by turning on sprint, and slotting swift and hurdle since sprint/CJ are the only two movement powers allowed.

Edited by TheAdjustor
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4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I'm going to test psi melee with wp and invul on a scrapper tomorrow, its my day off.

 

Can you give me specifics on how we are slotting stuff like stamina and health power pools etc.

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I will post a screenshot of my slotting to see if its acceptable before I do anything though.

 

Also what is the ae map number?

Thanks! Psi Melee is one of the sets I haven't played, so I was going to ask for help with it since I have no idea how to use it correctly.

 

I put 3 slots in Stamina and Quick Recovery, 4 slots in my toggles (1 endredux + 3 heal/def/res or whatever), and just the base slot in Sprint/Swift/Hurdle/Health. Ultimately I don't think defensive slotting is going to matter a lot, because you shouldn't be in any serious danger of dying.

 

After discussing with @TheAdjustor about the herding thing, I actually unpublished the asteroid map, and made a different map that doesn't favor herding quite so heavily. It also fixes a couple other issues with the asteroid map: the asteroid had no variation in enemy level (most missions have a mix of +0 and +1), and that "hidden" plateau was a stumbling block. The new arc is ID 15873 and takes place on a warehouse map.

 

Since this is a different map, that means my times from yesterday have to be thrown out; I'll re-test on the new map today.

Edited by Hopeling
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7 minutes ago, Vayek said:

Definitive proof that Titan weapons is too strong for a melee powerset since melee sets must always be the weakest damage in the game! *he said with a deeply sarcastic and belittling voice*

 

https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/man-wins-yet-another-round-of-laser-tag-using-only-melee-attacks/

Vayek, seriously, what on Earth do you think you're accomplishing here? A GM specifically asked us to do this testing. This is not a TW vendetta. This is testing.

 

If you want to participate in the process, you're welcome to. If you have some specific criticism of our methodology, say so, and we can discuss it. But if you're just going to throw around strawmen and fail to respond to any of the things anybody has actually said, we're basically just going to continue ignoring you.

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4 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Vayek, seriously, what on Earth do you think you're accomplishing here? A GM specifically asked us to do this testing. This is not a TW vendetta. This is testing.

 

If you want to participate in the process, you're welcome to. If you have some specific criticism of our methodology, say so, and we can discuss it. But if you're just going to throw around strawmen and fail to respond to any of the things anybody has actually said, we're basically just going to continue ignoring you.

Their opinion matters also though, a lot of us have been burned badly by nerfs in the past, unjustified ones IMO so you have to meet their opinion half way at and least understand why.

 

There is reason behind them and I get it.

 

Thats why this has to be tested till we are blue in the face to make sure its not a knee jerk in any direction.

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19 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Thanks! Psi Melee is one of the sets I haven't played, so I was going to ask for help with it since I have no idea how to use it correctly.

 

I put 3 slots in Stamina and Quick Recovery, 4 slots in my toggles (1 endredux + 3 heal/def/res or whatever), and just the base slot in Sprint/Swift/Hurdle/Health. Ultimately I don't think defensive slotting is going to matter a lot, because you shouldn't be in any serious danger of dying.

 

After discussing with @TheAdjustor about the herding thing, I actually unpublished the asteroid map, and made a different map that doesn't favor herding quite so heavily. It also fixes a couple other issues with the asteroid map: the asteroid had no variation in enemy level (most missions have a mix of +0 and +1), and that "hidden" plateau was a stumbling block. The new arc is ID 15849 and takes place on a warehouse map.

 

Since this is a different map, that means my times from yesterday have to be thrown out; I'll re-test on the new map today.

Psi melee is mah thang.  lol im just hoping I do t get it nerfed by doing these tests.  I think id probably puke.

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1 hour ago, Vayek said:

It's just PVE. Your entire argument here is 100% predicated on the notion "You hit that enemy harder than I did. I can't let that stand!"

Ah, a double whammy of argument from dismissal and psychogenetic fallacy. Even more funny, the latter is not only an un-argument but not even what I think so I'm hoping this is just benign ignorance and not a malicious attempt at misrepresenting my argument in order to poison the well.

 

Just in case you're genuinely confused, my argument is based on the following:

  • balance is important
  • balance requires parity between the sets

If a lack of parity can be demonstrated, then the current devs should take measures to restore balance.

 

My argument is not "I'm jelly of TW's performance so nuke it like EM" (like I've stated several times and as it says on my signature, I play TW so it wouldn't even make sense to be jealous of my own character).

 

1 hour ago, Vayek said:

Get over it already.

Yet another argument from dismissal.

 

1 hour ago, Vayek said:

Titan Weapons is well balanced with its limitations vrs strengths.

And why do you think that is? It has good DPA even without Momentum. It gets 10-40% extra damage on literally every attack. It also happens to get extremely good soft control. It has virtually identical DPE with sets like War Mace, but with Momentum it gets the opportunity to turn Endurance into damage even faster than other sets, which is not a downside. It's a bit of a stretch to call it a huge downside you have to be a bit mindful of your endurance usage and I can agree that the Momentum system is "clunky", but if you space out your attacks you'll end up with similar EPS and DPS to most other sets. I'm not against TW getting something extra for clunkyness, but I think we have pretty strong indication it gets a bit too much.

 

I'll happily wait for the test results to see if the opportunity to turn blue bar into damage numbers materializes in a significant way, but based on the numbers and my own experience with TW I have pretty good reason to believe it does. But just to reiterate, just because I think it might warrant some toning down I don't want TW getting the EM treatment.

 

So to ask again, why do you think it is balanced within its limitations vs strengths? I'd appreciate it if you could argue this position without resorting to ad hominems or just straight up not addressing the points contrary to your stance. I hate to say it, but if your position is based on dismissing all counter-arguments and trying to discredit the arguer, then maybe your position isn't very strong.

 

1 hour ago, Vayek said:

If you don't like something, don't play it.

Third time's the charm? Nah. Besides, I enjoy playing TW and I have a hard time imagining a slight adjustment such as getting rid of the DoTs (if shown to be justified) would affect my enjoyment.

Edited by DSorrow
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Torchbearer:

Sunsinger - Fire/Time Corruptor

Cursebreaker - TW/Elec Brute

Coldheart - Ill/Cold Controller

Mythoclast - Rad/SD Scrapper

 

Give a man a build export and you feed him for a day, teach him to build and he's fed for a lifetime.

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20 minutes ago, Vayek said:

Definitive proof that Titan weapons is too strong for a melee powerset since melee sets must always be the weakest damage in the game! *he said with a deeply sarcastic and belittling voice*

 

https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/man-wins-yet-another-round-of-laser-tag-using-only-melee-attacks/

Please stop arguing against a point that nobody else in this thread is making.

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1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

(like I've stated several times and as it says on my signature, I play TW so it wouldn't even make sense to be jealous of my own character)

We're all circling around the elephant in the room: this whole thread is a bunch of people playing TW yelling at people playing even more TW they want to nerf TW to oblivion because they're jealous of TW.

The debate is between people who like being OP vs people who like incentive for diversity in their alt lineup. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. 😛

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19 minutes ago, nihilii said:

We're all circling around the elephant in the room: this whole thread is a bunch of people playing TW yelling at people playing even more TW they want to nerf TW to oblivion because they're jealous of TW.

The debate is between people who like being OP vs people who like incentive for diversity in their alt lineup. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. 😛

I don't play TW though.

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Thought I would give Savage Melee/ WP a shot at this test tonight. SM looked like it would be interesting as I have never played the set at all and it had some features that seemed to be test worthy. It has a mini game, and Teleport Nuke. The mini game is interesting as sets with a mini game are by definition more complex and harder to manage, hence should do more damage than sets without a mini game, and it would also compare better to TW with its momentum game.

 

The Teleport Nuke seems even more interesting as it's very useful against targets that actually move. I have the suspicion Electric Melee would be enormously competitive on this test, and at higher levels of recharge would completely destroy TW.

 

From personal experience fitting in an epic like pyre mastery or mu mastery is actually very significant to overall set performance, while most of the single target tests, seem to work around waterspout.

 

Unfortunately the map seems to be gone.

Edited by TheAdjustor
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