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Leandro

Focused Feedback: Player vs. Player

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PvP

  • Global Damage Procs like Hybrid Double Hit, Plant Manipulation's Toxins and  Bio Armor's Offensive Adaptation should now use PvP damage formula in PvP instead of the PvE damage formula.
  • Controller versionof Storm Summoning > O2 Boost no longer grants Stun or Sleep protection in PvP, it should now grant Stun and Sleep resistance.
  • Mez Duration and Suppressions rules have been enforced for the following enhancements:
    • Debilitative Action: Disorient Bonus
    • Devastation: Chance for Hold
    • Dominion of Arachnos: Recharge/Chance for -Dmg and Terrorize
    • Energy Manipulator: Chance to Stun
    • Executioners Contract: Disorient Bonus
    • Frozen Blast: Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
    • Gravitational Anchor: Chance for Hold
    • Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold
    • Pounding Slugfest: Disorient Bonus
    • Razzle Dazzle: Chance for Immobilize
    • Superior Dominion of Arachnos: Recharge/Chance for -Dmg and Terrorize
    • Superior Frozen Blast: Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
    • Unspeakable Terror: Disorient Bonus
  • Mez Duration and Suppressions rules have been enforced for the following powers:
    • Arachnos Soldiers > Bane Spider Soldier > Bash
    • Arachnos Soldiers > Bane Spider Soldier > Pulverize
    • Blaster Ranged > Dark Blast > Abyssal Gaze
    • Blaster Support > Atomic Manipulation > Electron Shackles
    • Blaster Support > Atomic Manipulation > Positron Cell
    • Blaster Support > Darkness Manipulation > Midnight Grasp
    • Blaster Support > Electricity Manipulation > Electric Fence
    • Blaster Support > Ice Manipulation > Frozen Aura
    • Blaster Support > Mental Manipulation > World of Confusion
    • Blaster Support > Ninja Training > Blinding Powder
    • Blaster Support > Ninja Training > Immobilizing Dart
    • Blaster Support > Temporal Manipulation > Time Shift
    • Blaster Support > Temporal Manipulation > Time Stop
    • Blaster Support > Temporal Manipulation > Time Wall
    • Brute Defense > Dark Armor > Cloak of Fear
    • Brute Defense > Dark Armor > Soul Transfer
    • Brute Melee > Electrical Melee > Jacobs Ladder
    • Brute Melee > Energy Melee > Bone Smasher
    • Brute Melee > Martial Arts > Cobra Strike
    • Brute Melee > Martial Arts > Crippling Axe Kick
    • Brute Melee > Martial Arts > Eagles Claw
    • Brute Melee > Martial Arts > Thunder Kick
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Barb Swipe
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Impale
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Lunge
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Quills
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Ripper
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Spine Burst
    • Brute Melee > Spines > Throw Spines
    • Brute Melee > Street Justice > Crushing Uppercut
    • Brute Melee > Street Justice > Initial Strike
    • Brute Melee > Street Justice > Spinning Strike
    • Brute Melee > Street Justice > Sweeping Cross
    • Brute Melee > Titan Weapons > Follow Through
    • Controller Buff > Darkness Affinity > Howling Twilight
    • Controller Buff > Force Field > Repulsion Bomb
    • Controller Buff > Radiation Emission > EM Pulse
    • Controller Buff > Time Manipulation > Time Stop
    • Controller Buff > Traps > Web Grenade
    • Controller Control > Darkness Control > Dark Grasp
    • Controller Control > Earth Control > Salt Crystals
    • Controller Control > Ice Control > Arctic Air
    • Controller Control > Mind Control > Telekinesis
    • Corruptor Buff > Dark Miasma > Petrifying Gaze
    • Corruptor Buff > Force Field > Repulsion Bomb
    • Corruptor Buff > Time Manipulation > Time Stop
    • Defender Buff > Dark Miasma > Petrifying Gaze
    • Defender Buff > Time Manipulation > Time Stop
    • Defender Buff > Traps > Web Grenade
    • Defender Ranged > Assault Rifle > Beanbag
    • Dominator Assault > Earth Assault > Mud Pots
    • Dominator Assault > Energy Assault > Whirling Hands
    • Dominator Control > Darkness Control > Dark Grasp
    • Dominator Control > Electric Control > Chain Fences
    • Dominator Control > Electric Control > Electric Fence
    • Dominator Control > Electric Control > Tesla Cage
    • Dominator Control > Ice Control > Arctic Air
    • Dominator Control > Mind Control > Confuse
    • Dominator Control > Mind Control > Mass Confusion
    • Dominator Control > Mind Control > Telekinesis
    • Dominator Control > Plant Control > Seeds of Confusion
    • Mastermind Buff > Dark Miasma > Fearsome Stare
    • Mastermind Buff > Storm Summoning > Thunder Clap
    • Mastermind Buff > Time Manipulation > Time Stop
    • Mastermind Pets > Jounin > Blinding Powder
    • Peacebringer Defensive > Luminous Aura > White Dwarf Smite
    • Scrapper Defense > Dark Armor > Cloak of Fear
    • Scrapper Defense > Dark Armor > Oppressive Gloom
    • Scrapper Defense > Dark Armor > Soul Transfer
    • Scrapper Melee > Dark Melee > Midnight Grasp
    • Scrapper Melee > Electrical Melee > Charged Brawl
    • Scrapper Melee > Electrical Melee > Havoc Punch
    • Scrapper Melee > Electrical Melee > Jacobs Ladder
    • Scrapper Melee > Electrical Melee > Lightning Clap
    • Scrapper Melee > Electrical Melee > Thunder Strike
    • Scrapper Melee > Martial Arts > Cobra Strike
    • Scrapper Melee > Martial Arts > Crippling Axe Kick
    • Scrapper Melee > Martial Arts > Eagles Claw
    • Scrapper Melee > Martial Arts > Thunder Kick
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Barb Swipe
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Impale
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Lunge
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Quills
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Ripper
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Spine Burst
    • Scrapper Melee > Spines > Throw Spines
    • Scrapper Melee > Street Justice > Crushing Uppercut
    • Scrapper Melee > Street Justice > Initial Strike
    • Scrapper Melee > Street Justice > Spinning Strike
    • Scrapper Melee > Street Justice > Sweeping Cross
    • Scrapper Melee > Titan Weapons > Follow Through
    • Scrapper Melee > War Mace > Whirling Mace
    • Sentinel Defense > Dark Armor > Cloak of Fear
    • Sentinel Defense > Dark Armor > Soul Transfer
    • Sentinel Ranged > Dark Blast > Abyssal Gaze
    • Stalker Defense > Dark Armor > Cloak of Fear
    • Stalker Defense > Dark Armor > Soul Transfer
    • Stalker Melee > Street Justice > Crushing Uppercut
    • Stalker Melee > Street Justice > Initial Strike
    • Stalker Melee > Street Justice > Spinning Strike
    • Stalker Melee > Street Justice > Sweeping Cross
    • Tanker Defense > Dark Armor > Cloak of Fear
    • Tanker Defense > Dark Armor > Oppressive Gloom
    • Tanker Defense > Dark Armor > Soul Transfer
    • Tanker Melee > Electrical Melee > Charged Brawl
    • Tanker Melee > Electrical Melee > Havoc Punch
    • Tanker Melee > Electrical Melee > Jacobs Ladder
    • Tanker Melee > Electrical Melee > Lightning Clap
    • Tanker Melee > Electrical Melee > Thunder Strike
    • Tanker Melee > Energy Melee > Barrage
    • Tanker Melee > Martial Arts > Cobra Strike
    • Tanker Melee > Martial Arts > Crippling Axe Kick
    • Tanker Melee > Martial Arts > Eagles Claw
    • Tanker Melee > Martial Arts > Thunder Kick
    • Tanker Melee > Psionic Melee > Greater Psi Blade
    • Tanker Melee > Psionic Melee > Psi Blade Sweep
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Barb Swipe
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Impale
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Lunge
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Quills
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Ripper
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Spine Burst
    • Tanker Melee > Spines > Throw Spines
    • Tanker Melee > Street Justice > Crushing Uppercut
    • Tanker Melee > Street Justice > Initial Strike
    • Tanker Melee > Street Justice > Spinning Strike
    • Tanker Melee > Street Justice > Sweeping Cross
    • Tanker Melee > Titan Weapons > Follow Through
    • Tanker Melee > War Mace > Whirling Mace
    • Warshade Defensive > Umbral Aura > Black Dwarf Smite
    • Warshade Defensive > Umbral Aura > Inky Aspect
    • Pool > Fighting > Boxing
    • Pool > Fighting > Cross Punch
    • Pool > Presence > Intimidate
    • Pool > Presence > Invoke Panic
    • Pool > Speed > Flurry
    • Epic > Arctic Mastery > Chilblain
    • Epic > Blaze Mastery > Ring of Fire
    • Epic > Charge Mastery > ESD
    • Epic > Chill Mastery > Flash Freeze
    • Epic > Cold Mastery > Flash Freeze
    • Epic > Flame Mastery > Char
    • Epic > Dark Mastery > Soul Transfer
    • Epic > Flame Mastery > Char
    • Epic > Earth Mastery > Salt Crystals
    • Epic > Earth Mastery > Stone Prison
    • Epic > Electrical Mastery > EM Pulse
    • Epic > Electrical Mastery > Shocking Bolt
    • Epic > Electricity Mastery > Electric Fence
    • Epic > Flame Mastery > Char
    • Epic > Munitions Mastery > Cryo Freeze Ray
    • Epic > Munitions Mastery > Sleep Grenade
    • Epic > Psionic Mastery > World of Confusion
    • Epic > Psionic Mastery > World of Confusion
    • Epic > Psychic Mastery > Telekinesis
    • Epic > Psychic Mastery > World of Confusion
    • Epic > Pyre Mastery > Ring of Fire
    • Epic > Dark Mastery > Netherworld Grasp
    • Epic > Mace Mastery > Pulverize
    • Epic > Stone Mastery > Fissure
    • Epic > Stone Mastery > Seismic Smash
    • Epic > Weapon Mastery > Web Grenade
    • Epic > Weapon Mastery > Web Grenade
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Stun Grenade
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Fiendish Glare
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Seduction
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Duplicity
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Hand Clap
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Stun Grenade
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Stun Grenade
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Minor Mutation
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Nectar
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Power of Scirocco
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Atomic Blast
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Cosmic Burst
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Psionic Activator
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Stun Grenade
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Stun Grenade
    • Temporary Powers > Temporary Powers > Vanguard Psi-Bomb
  • Mez Duration and Suppressions rules have been enforced for the following player pet powers:
    • Pets > PPD Hard Suit > Bone Smasher
    • Pets > PPD Hard Suit > Energy Punch
    • Pets > PPD Sergeant > Force Brawl
    • Pets > Resistance_Rifle > Power Punch
    • Pets > Tech Lab > Explosion
    • Pets > Seeker 1 > FlashPulse
    • Pets > Seeker 1 > FlashPulse
    • Pets > Seeker 2 > FlashPulse
    • Pets > Seeker 2 > FlashPulse
    • Pets > Seeker 3 > FlashPulse
    • Pets > Coral Guardian Warder > Fossilize
    • Pets > Fly Trap > Entangle
    • Pets > Fortunata Mistress > Psychic Wail
    • Pets > Fortunata Mistress > Scramble Thoughts
    • Pets > Mu Adept > EM Pulse
    • Pets > Mu Guardian > EM Pulse
    • Pets > Mu Striker > EM Pulse
    • Pets > Shade > Scare
    • Pets > Seeker 1 > FlashPulse
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Question: 

Since a lot of mez powers are getting checked. Could you guys also look at Corrupter--Lancer Shot--(specifically its Stun duration) and make sure it is following the duration and suppression rules as well?

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6 minutes ago, Soloris said:

Question: 

Since a lot of mez powers are getting checked. Could you guys also look at Corrupter--Lancer Shot--(specifically its Stun duration) and make sure it is following the duration and suppression rules as well?

Go out and test please! If you log in right now you can see that the duration in PvP is now 2 seconds base rather than the 4 seconds it was before.  

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Thank you so much for these changes. Zone PVP will be a lot more tolerable, and I look forward to being able to use my dark/* dom in kb's again.

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4 minutes ago, Dan Petro said:

Go out and test please! If you log in right now you can see that the duration in PvP is now 2 seconds base rather than the 4 seconds it was before.  

Totally would if I could.. I dont think CoH runs on a cell phone?  (If it can please let me know)

Also great to see that all the mes powers were brought in line!

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Curious to know if what it means by the doublehit/plant changes using a pvp formula. I assume that means it got nerfed, but by how much?

 

As it stands, Plant secondary was already fairly weak among the better secondaries available to blaster. Ranking behind TA, EM, and Martial in terms of general viability. The set had two significant upsides which revolved around exclusive focus on damage. While the set definitely needed to be evaluated, I'm curious to know how a change like this would affect it. Assuming that it loses even 200 damage in the course of a combo, Plants already limited viability is essentially removed. 

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Ok does this mean my /ninja training blasters blinding poweder will actually confuse now in pvp? Because it doesn't right now.

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Also, while we're on the subject of CCs. Can we have a comment on the atrocious state of Controllers in PvP? Doms got a pretty nice playability buff in the last patch, and this patch brings nerfs specifically to one of controllers few remaining strengths (Power boost and -special interactions)

 

With the short nature of CC's in general, combined with complications related to Mez Suppression, Controllers have little to no place in PvP in general outside of niche buff/debuff bots. It would be nice if their Passive, Containment, which provides "Critical" Damage on mez'd targets, could be reviewed and damage added to supplement the fact that it's almost non-operable in the majority, if not all relevant PvP. 

Edited by Epsilon Assassin
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Tanker Primary / Secondary powers -All Mez duration properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Brute Primary / Secondary powers - All Mez duration properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Blaster Primary - All Mez durations properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Blaster Secondary - Elec Manipulation Force of Thunder - Seems to have lost its stun.

 

Mental Manipulation - World of Confusion does not have a duration listed, just a mag 2 confuse.

 

Ninja Training - Immobilizing dart seems to have both an immob and a hold component to it.  Proper duration, but should only have immob. 

 

Controller Primary - Dimension shift - Showing mag 10 immob for 8.00 seconds (not sure if that has something to do with matching the intangible duration though).

 

Illusion - Blind proper 4 second duration on the hold, only 2 second duration on the AOE Sleep.

 

Plant Control - Carrion creepers - 2.00 second duration immob instead of 4.  Might be a result of pseudo pet.

 

Controller Secondary - Dark  - Howling twilight - 15 second fear (though that may just be an avoidance mechanic for PvE mobs, not an actual terrorize)

 

Black Hole - Have to test how this actually works, but only showing a 0.6 second duration intangible  + immob

 

Nature - Entangling aura - No duration listed.

 

Rad Emission - Choking cloud - No duration listed

 

Sonic Resonance  - Liquefy - 2.00 Second hold duration.  


Thermal - Power of the Phoenix - 2.00 second stun duration. 

 

Time - Distortion Field - 0.25 second hold duration, but no clue how this is actually supposed to function.

 

 

First round of looking over values. I was not able to check individual pet powers here as well as some pseudo pet powers like Volcanic Gases.  Will update more later. 

 

PB/Warshades - All Mez duration properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Sentinel Primary/Secondary - All Mez duration properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Corruptor Primary - All Mez durations properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Corruptor Secondary - Trick Arrow - EMP arrow does not have a listed hold duration.

 

VEAT stuff (base classes) - All Mez duration properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

Scrapper Primary/Secondary - All good.

 

Stalker Primary - All good

 

Stalker Secondary - Unsure of Bio armor genetic contamination sleep, no duration listed.

 

Energy Aura - Disrupt - No duration listed

 

Dominator Primary - Ice - Arctic air No duration listed for confuse portion of mez effect.

 

Plant - Carrion Creepers - 2 second immob instead of 4 (might be because of pseudo pet status)

 

Dominator Secondary - All Mez duration properly listed @ 4.00 seconds

 

Mastermind Primary/Secondary - All Mez duration properly listed @ 2.00 seconds

 

 

*Note* Powers like Choking Cloud and Entangling aura from rad / nature respectively don't have a duration listed on them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dan Petro
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27 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Curious to know if what it means by the doublehit/plant changes using a pvp formula. I assume that means it got nerfed, but by how much?

 

As it stands, Plant secondary was already fairly weak among the better secondaries available to blaster. Ranking behind TA, EM, and Martial in terms of general viability. The set had two significant upsides which revolved around exclusive focus on damage. While the set definitely needed to be evaluated, I'm curious to know how a change like this would affect it. Assuming that it loses even 200 damage in the course of a combo, Plants already limited viability is essentially removed. 

 

I haven't tested it yet, but the PvE formula for damage proc type powers is largely based around cycle time of a power (recharge + cast time) where as the PvP damage formula is heavily influenced by cast time and less so on power recharge time. (Hence powers like blaze and flares having similar damage values before the %dot chances.  Flares being 110 base, blaze being 115 on blasters). So you may see a buff to toxins on long cast powers and a nerf on short activation ones. 

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31 minutes ago, Dan Petro said:

 

I haven't tested it yet, but the PvE formula for damage proc type powers is largely based around cycle time of a power (recharge + cast time) where as the PvP damage formula is heavily influenced by cast time and less so on power recharge time. (Hence powers like blaze and flares having similar damage values before the %dot chances.  Flares being 110 base, blaze being 115 on blasters). So you may see a buff to toxins on long cast powers and a nerf on short activation ones. 

Thats what I was curious about because I interpreted it in a few ways.


I just wanted to bring into the open that, should that be true, and it's a nerf, it relegates Plant to a completely useless secondary, which is something the developers likely do not completely understand and I'd like to bring to the front so that its implications are fully understood.

 

As it stands, Plant brings two very specific things to the table versus the front running TA secondary, and that is that Plant kills things very well. Strangler provides a vastly superior instant-hit ability as compared to SSJ, the other common alternative, and Toxins, which enhances burst spikes. As it stands most TA blasters can kill things in 2 cycles. Plant brings the possibility of doing it in one for specific sets (Psy and Dark specifically), but post-patch, that possibility will be removed. 

 

This patch is already removing one of the 5 viable Blaster secondaries (Atomic) from the pool of competitive pvp secondaries for the class, albeit for good reason. This secondary fix to specifically Toxins, risks removing yet another.

 

On the flip side, assuming they buff it, the TTK in PvP could reach a point where 1606 toons, which are for the most part, impossible to run in general pvp outside very specific scenarios, and usually power picks, even harder to run. Making even more power sets capable of lethal OTKs like the Psy 4 piece burst combo. 

 

It also runs the risk of removing assault hybrid as the choice among only two real options in PvP Hybrids (Should this change be a nerf), but that's another issue entirely because both of the frontrunners are bugged instances, and the rest are irrelevant. 

Edited by Epsilon Assassin
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1 hour ago, M3z said:

Nice changes, thanks!

 

And to all those zoners who rolled dark control. Time to go reroll 😉

rip the only primary for controllers that let you do any damage. fbm. 

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20 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

rip the only primary for controllers that let you do any damage. fbm. 

I don't believe the damage value changed. 

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Looks like some good fixes, thanks to the devs and also Dan Petro for reporting a bunch of the broken mezs.

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34 minutes ago, Waypoint said:

I don't believe the damage value changed. 

Due to the inherent nature of how controllers work, while the damage value doesn't change, your damage potential is tied to your cc duration and how many attacks you can get off while the target is held. Fixing the cc duration, while needed, also means that the damage my controller can do goes down dramatically as I have much less time to leverage Containment's critical damage portion. 

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It's great to see some PvP-focused bug fixes. Thanks Homecoming volunteers!


@Glacier Peak

Glacier Peak - Ice/Cold Corruptor / Chronic Pain - Pain/Dark Defender / Empirical - Empathy/Water Defender

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After doing some actual testing on the Toxins. My current combo deals approximately 397 damage with Toxins. On test it deals 277. 

 

Personally, this makes plant outright worse then Martial, EM and TA. All of these can essentially one combo 1606 toons. Plants only advantage was, based on Absorb Ticks, Procs and Travel time, the ability to one combo Blasters and Sents. With this damage nerf it's no longer a possibility, effectively removing one of its only two strengths. The only strength it has remaining is the ability for Strangler to simply be a better Spirit Shark Jaws for spike chain timings. All of the above secondaries bring effectively the same damage (Or more in some cases), as well as a plethora of utility. 

 

Whether or not the change is good, is debatable. On the plus side, getting one combo'd from full to zero is probably not good (But it exists for 1606 toons anyways, so?), and it could deserve a nerf on that front. On the other hand though, this change does remove plant as a competitive secondary. 

 

My question is whether the nerf to Toxins specifically should be done now, instead of postponing it for an indefinite amount of time where the overwhelming dominance of TA, and to a lesser degree, EM and Martial, is addressed to bring them in line as a whole instead of cutting down the viable blaster secondaries from 5 to 3 in a single patch. 

Edited by Epsilon Assassin

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46 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

After doing some actual testing on the Toxins. My current combo deals approximately 397 damage with Toxins. On test it deals 277. 

 

Personally, this makes plant outright worse then Martial, EM and TA. All of these can essentially one combo 1606 toons. Plants only advantage was, based on Absorb Ticks, Procs and Travel time, the ability to one combo Blasters and Sents. With this damage nerf it's no longer a possibility, effectively removing one of its only two strengths. The only strength it has remaining is the ability for Strangler to simply be a better Spirit Shark Jaws for spike chain timings. All of the above secondaries bring effectively the same damage (Or more in some cases), as well as a plethora of utility. 

 

Whether or not the change is good, is debatable. On the plus side, getting one combo'd from full to zero is probably not good (But it exists for 1606 toons anyways, so?), and it could deserve a nerf on that front. On the other hand though, this change does remove plant as a competitive secondary. 

 

My question is whether the nerf to Toxins specifically should be done now, instead of postponing it for an indefinite amount of time where the overwhelming dominance of TA, and to a lesser degree, EM and Martial, is addressed to bring them in line as a whole instead of cutting down the viable blaster secondaries from 5 to 3 in a single patch. 

 

The damage change is going to be unique to pretty much every blaster primary.  What primary and what attacks are you using to go from 397 to 277? 

 

If you want to tackle this change the best approach IMO is maybe test different blaster primaries with toxins and post the results i.e. Toxins does X damage with Y power against a target with Z toxic resist. 

 

Ideally you'd fire off every power in your primary for the sake of being thorough, but do what you can.

 

From there you (we) have to look at how much damage is added to the same primaries by using Build up instead (or just popping 4 reds, saving you from making a second character).  If BU is just a straight upgrade in damage by a wide margin then it might be worth adjusting the formula used to apply the proc.  

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1 minute ago, Dan Petro said:

 

The damage change is going to be unique to pretty much every blaster primary.  What primary and what attacks are you using to go from 397 to 277? 

 

If you want to tackle this change the best approach IMO is maybe test different blaster primaries with toxins and post the results i.e. Toxins does X damage with Y power against a target with Z toxic resist. 

 

Ideally you'd fire off every power in your primary for the sake of being thorough, but do what you can.

 

From there you (we) have to look at how much damage is added to the same primaries by using Build up instead (or just popping 4 reds, saving you from making a second character).  If BU is just a straight upgrade in damage by a wide margin then it might be worth adjusting the formula used to apply the proc.  

It is WD/Char/Lance/Strangler. It's pretty much the only spike chain, possibly only dark could do something similar, that had the potential to 100-0 an HP capped blaster. 

 

I have the exact numbers, Mallex did Dark on Stream and I believe Alou did Ice.

 

The problem isn't necessarily whether or not the damage is more or less, it's whether the application of the power in game allows for a defined niche. Plant still likely retains a 1-200 damage burst advantage, but that wont 100-0 a sent or a blaster, while the other three listed secondaries can 100-0 1606 toons already. As it stands, on test Plant lost the niche ability to spike blasters and sents, while on live it has it to some extent.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it's a good debate to have whether that sort of spike damage is good for the game, but this nerf does hit plant pretty hard, when plant is already a fairly weak secondary in most pvp scenarios. 

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20 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

It is WD/Char/Lance/Strangler. It's pretty much the only spike chain, possibly only dark could do something similar, that had the potential to 100-0 an HP capped blaster. 

 

I have the exact numbers, Mallex did Dark on Stream and I believe Alou did Ice.

 

The problem isn't necessarily whether or not the damage is more or less, it's whether the application of the power in game allows for a defined niche. Plant still likely retains a 1-200 damage burst advantage, but that wont 100-0 a sent or a blaster, while the other three listed secondaries can 100-0 1606 toons already. As it stands, on test Plant lost the niche ability to spike blasters and sents, while on live it has it to some extent.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it's a good debate to have whether that sort of spike damage is good for the game, but this nerf does hit plant pretty hard, when plant is already a fairly weak secondary in most pvp scenarios. 

Plant still has an absorb shield + a top tier ranged attack.  Given that no other blaster has something like strangler doing almost 200 damage from range in their secondary it still has a very defined niche as the "High damage" secondary.  Martial with TP has elusiveness, TA has "everything great a PvP character wants" and EM has boost range. 

 

Plant with these changes still maintains the kind of "bruiser" role, but is likely just brought closer in line with other secondaries keeping it from being such an outlier.  Giving every blaster primary a ~200 base damage attack they can weave into their chain that can hit 90% Proc rate and can slot 5 procs opens up a massive amount of build variety for blasters and shouldn't be understated. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Dan Petro said:

Plant still has an absorb shield + a top tier ranged attack.  Given that no other blaster has something like strangler doing almost 200 damage from range in their secondary it still has a very defined niche as the "High damage" secondary.  Martial with TP has elusiveness, TA has "everything great a PvP character wants" and EM has boost range. 

 

Plant with these changes still maintains the kind of "bruiser" role, but is likely just brought closer in line with other secondaries keeping it from being such an outlier.  Giving every blaster primary a ~200 base damage attack they can weave into their chain that can hit 90% Proc rate and can slot 5 procs opens up a massive amount of build variety for blasters and shouldn't be understated. 

 

Yeah, strangler is one of two reasons to roll it, but it's far from being on par with Martial providing CC immunity windows, TP with half the animation of Phase, perma 40% damage bonus and an absorb. The general problem with strangler as an "Attack chain" is that PvP doesnt revolve around attack chains. EM has range advantage which is intrinsically a huge deal, particularly when most relevant PvP sets end without a snipe. TA has -jump, which is one of the most overpowered concepts ever given to blasters, in addition to competitive damage, recharge, mez resist and gymnastics.

 

PvP is usually your best timed 3 attacks (Char, snipe lancer for instance). Maybe 4 (Will Dom, Lance, TK, SSJ). After that the target phases, is dead or out of range. Strangler makes a niche fourth attack for some sets (Such as Psy), and as a timing attack in Ice as a third. 

 

So, while Strangler does retain itself as a marked perk of the set, it does not give plant a "Niche" alone. With toxins being weakened to make little to no difference, it narrows that niche down to non-existence. It would be comparable to say that Devices is top tier because Gun Drone procs Confuse Interface regardless of Mez Suppression. I mean sure, but how -much- does that really matter? Is it really enough to create a -competitive- niche? I would say no. 

 

Plant -is- currently an outlier. But so is TA. So is Martial. So is EM. Those outlying facets of the set are what makes them strong, and gives them reason to be run. Currently on test the only reason to run Plant is an almost meaningless 1-200 damage burst advantage (It is an advantage but it doesnt reach any meaningful benchmarks. You'll still need another cycle to kill someone, in which case its identical to the other secondaries) in 1 in 5-8 spikes, a good attack to add in every other spike if you somehow have time for a fifth attack and an absorb that's also present in Martial. 

 

Objectively, Plant is already, in general, weaker then Martial and TA. I would consider it to be better, in general, then EM. However it's worth mentioning in the same breath. With this change, it will no longer be true. While the debate on whether or not it's healthy to have a blaster secondary that can 100-0 another blaster with absorb, or a sent, is healthy to have is an accurate point to make, so is the fact that this change does further narrow the number of competitive secondaries in an already fairly narrow field. 

 

Edited by Epsilon Assassin

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These are the best changes I've read since coming here, thanks to everyone who worked on this 🙂

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2 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

If you want to tackle this change the best approach IMO is maybe test different blaster primaries with toxins and post the results i.e. Toxins does X damage with Y power against a target with Z toxic resist.

 

From there you (we) have to look at how much damage is added to the same primaries by using Build up instead (or just popping 4 reds, saving you from making a second character).  If BU is just a straight upgrade in damage by a wide margin then it might be worth adjusting the formula used to apply the proc.  

Attack Name Old Toxins New Toxins Old Doublehit New Doublehit
Bitter Freeze Ray 95.58 94.43 73.62 72.74
Bitter Ice Blast 78.95 55.93 60.81 43.08
Freeze Ray 67.87 51.50 52.28 39.67
Ice Blast 56.33 64.86 43.48 49.96
Ice Bolt 33.95 43.26 26.16 33.32
Strangler 99.14 85.47 76.37 65.83

 

The target had 37.7% res to all on live, vs 38.24% on test, I dont have the most precise methodolgy in the world, generally I just hope results drown out the margin of error.

 

On live, I have also made a comparison between Toxins and Build Up using the Chain BFR > BIB > Freeze Ray > Strangler the results of which look like this:

 

Toxins Damage Total:    1233.72
Build Up Damage Total: 1082.60

 

Toxins + Aim + Gaussians Proc, Damage Total:    1446.52

Build Up + Aim + Gaussians Proc, Damage Total: 1253.06
 

The damage totals only take into account the damage from the attacks and the bonus damage from toxins, so excludes things like damage procs.

 

Looking at the toxins differences above and applying them to the results below, it would appear that the edge toxins had over BU has been cut by about 50 damage (for this chain at least). Not the biggest of deals although other sets were already looking enticing over it beforehand.

Edited by Alouu
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