subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Frostbiter said: Dinsey has a really bad habit of sueing the families of dead children for putting Marvel and Disney characters on their tombstones. This is more of a "if they did this, they'd do that" type argument. Not actually a precedent one, which is more normally "if they did this to them, they will do this to you". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said: Ah but what was Disney's reason for this? That's key. Did they do it because they don't want other people using their stuff because they lose money? Or did they do it because they felt it would associate their character with something as tragic and unhappy as the death of a small child? Specifics matter. It's a specific policy of Walt Disney regarding use of his property on headstone and memorials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbiter Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Just now, subbacultchas said: It's a specific policy of Walt Disney regarding use of his property on headstone and memorials. Right, but why not sue the companies making them? Why sue the families? Torchbearer Discount Heroes SG: Frostbiter - Ice/Ice Blaster Throneblade - Broadsword/Dark Armor Brute Silver Mantra - Martial Arts/Electric Armor Scrapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardWarrior Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 minute ago, subbacultchas said: It's a specific policy of Walt Disney regarding use of his property on headstone and memorials. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Just now, Frostbiter said: Right, but why not sue the companies making them? Why sue the families? Sorry, but you'll have to post some links to them suing families. I am not aware that's the case, and don't want to speculate on a faulty premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardWarrior Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Just now, Frostbiter said: Right, but why not sue the companies making them? Why sue the families? Disney didn't sue the family. They just told them they cannot put an image of Spider-Man on their dead child's grave because of the express wishes of Walt Disney himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbiter Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 minute ago, subbacultchas said: Sorry, but you'll have to post some links to them suing families. I am not aware that's the case, and don't want to speculate on a faulty premise. Eh, ok I misremebered an article. A Family petitioned them and they denied the use. I retract my faulty claim. 1 1 Torchbearer Discount Heroes SG: Frostbiter - Ice/Ice Blaster Throneblade - Broadsword/Dark Armor Brute Silver Mantra - Martial Arts/Electric Armor Scrapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Just now, ShardWarrior said: Disney didn't sue the family. They just told them they cannot put an image of Spider-Man on their dead child's grave because of the express wishes of Walt Disney himself. And offered them a personalized commemorative pic of Spiderman, for and to their son. I think that was a nice way of saying "We can't do that, but we would love to do this for you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Frostbiter said: Eh, ok I misremebered an article. A Family petitioned them and they denied the use. I retract my faulty claim. No sweat man. I'm guilty of that too, we all are. Edited September 13, 2019 by subbacultchas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trademarked Name Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Even though the GMs have already weighed in on this, I get the sentiment that people still expressing their feels for the "wrongness" of seeing Clones/homages in COH and the repercussions that it may bring. But as an alternate perspective, when I see someone "copy-catting" a well known literary or cartoon figure in cosplay (even if I think in my brain that is riske', poorly executed, needlessly gory or a bit tasteless) I am reminded of the words of Oscar Wilde: "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness." Comparatively it's an interesting hypocrisy that fellow cosplayers don't seem to have a problem with someone who is portraying DC's robin as a female with her ass-cheeks hanging out and boobs popping out of a kid's sized t-shirt with an "R" drawn on with a sharpie. Nor do they comment on a little child dressed-up like a Disney princess. (these are just as arguable theft of intellectual property). But they DO seem to decry outrage or cry foul or yes verbalize "Trademark infringement!!!" when it's a cookie cutter version that looks like it just stepped out of the video game or an Iron man body armor that you would swear was made by Marvel studios or opposite end of the scale: someone who spray paints some cardboard boxes and slips their arms in to make themselves into Optimus prime. I also find it ironic when someone complains of "theft" of property but does so while displaying the image of a comic book character that they don't have rights to or the photo of a celebrity that I'm pretty sure they don't have written permissions to use as their avatar. And I tend to just dismiss that type of obvious hypocrisy without mention (but I mention it now). We all have our hypocrisies I suppose. But just like the self appointed Cosplay Police (as i like to call them), it takes me back to my school boy days where the kid across the street wanted the kids in the neighborhood to play kickball but only if he got to be the kicker and we all stood at the bases he assigned us. And if we didn't listen he would take the ball home. After about 30 minutes of being bossed around, we all just left and found some other game to play. "May you and your ball have a great time together". I really hope that kid eventually found someone to play with without bossing them around. Or maybe he's just grown up and posting on forums now about how other people's characters aren't unique enough for him. 2 2 Trademarked Name (@Trademark) Hocus-Pocus, Assault, Joan (of Atlas), Homunculous, Ensorcellress, Seismic, Wolfin, J0LT, The Limit, Transparency, Fastball, Loremaster, Monkey-Boy, Presto Chango, Kazam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya'dig Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 .... well this escalated quickly..... “Destiny dressed you this morning my friend, and now fear is trying to pull off your pants. If you give up, if you give in, then you're gonna end up naked with fear just standin' there laughing at your dangling unmentionables.” ― The Tick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubakumbi Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 27 minutes ago, Ya'dig said: .... well this escalated quickly..... HA! Not so quickly, really... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardWarrior Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) That quote from Oscar Wilde brings up a good point about intent which is important. To be clear there is nothing wrong with feeling cosplay/homages are tacky and not liking them. Everyone is different and has different tastes. With that said, it's one thing to simply not like cosplays/homages and another to try and use the FUD of the game getting shut down because of them as a means to prevent others from making them. Was looking for this particular video and wanted to add it here as it is on point with regard to infringement and trademarks. This is a video of Vic Mignogna talking about CBS, Trek fan films and what happened with Axanar. Won't go into enormous detail as it is a rather lengthy story, however Vic Mignogna wrote/produced/directed etc. the Star Trek Continues fan film series - he has been in the trenches and knows what he is talking about. In the video, he talks about CBS (who owns the rights to Star Trek) had encouraged and supported fan films for decades. CBS never blinked an eye about fan films until the moment some idiot came along and tried to make a profit from it. That is where CBS drew the line and forced them into legal action. You can consult the oracle of Google for the specifics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbjgYZ1kzE8 I'm of the opinion most IP owners are like CBS - they don't mind people making fan films or cosplays so long as people aren't trying to make a profit from it. They realize people putting their time, effort and personal money into making these films or costumes or mods/skins for games show the great affection people have for their work. It's a sign they did something right and that people like it. They aren't treating it as some call to arms to protect their property. That is not to say all IP owners are like this. I'm sure there are the more litigious types out there. However, I personally don't see this as a problem to be concerned about. P.S. If you haven't yet seen Star Trek Continues, give it a shot. They are on YouTube. 😀 Edited September 13, 2019 by ShardWarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed fray Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 2 hours ago, subbacultchas said: Wait a minute, you're talking about Marvel shutting down the site that made skins for Freedom Force, aren't you @ed fray? For those that didn't play it or don't remember, Marvel did go after a site that made skins for Freedom Force, and I think they won that suit. The reason it doesn't apply here at all though is, the company at the time was *selling and distributing* said skins. Marvel sued them for making a profit of their IP, and rightfully so in my mind. This is not akin to what's going on here though, and didn't really impact Freedom Force itself, just the third party skin creation site. I mean, you can purchase and play Freedom Force on Steam today, and if you haven't I'd suggest you give it a shot if you've got the time and money. Yes, that is what I was bringing up. I think they went after anyone who was paying homage a little too closely to their IP. The fan counter argument was "This is for fun & spreads your brand & people will be all mad at you for being bullies..." to which the lawyers replied "...sets a bad precedent so deal with it...". It's been 48 hours since my last new alt and I'm starting to get twitchy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardWarrior Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ed fray said: I think they went after anyone who was paying homage a little too closely to their IP. And by "too closely" they meant "trying to make money off of it." And if the people trying to sell the stuff tried to use that as an argument, they should be called out for it. Edited September 13, 2019 by ShardWarrior 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, ed fray said: Yes, that is what I was bringing up. I think they went after anyone who was paying homage a little too closely to their IP. The fan counter argument was "This is for fun & spreads your brand & people will be all mad at you for being bullies..." to which the lawyers replied "...sets a bad precedent so deal with it...". Not really though. I explained why it's different, as Shardwarrior does below. They went after a company making money off of them, skindex.net or something, not Freedom Force or The Sims. Both of them are still solid franchises, and skindex is non-existent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 https://web.archive.org/web/20030620140457/http://www.skindex.net/marvel_letter.htm If anyone is interested in the C&D letter. This is about a year before they went after CoH btw, and I suspect the success of skindex might have had a little to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardWarrior Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, subbacultchas said: Not really though. I explained why it's different, as Shardwarrior does below. They went after a company making money off of them, skindex.net or something, not Freedom Force or The Sims. Both of them are still solid franchises, and skindex is non-existent. A quick consult to the oracle of the Google shows that cosplay mods are still very much alive and well for the SIMS too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said: A quick consult to the oracle of the Google shows that cosplay mods are still very much alive and well for the SIMS too. As they should be. Of course, it's hard to verify now if skindex was actually selling products or not, and how they went about it. But I'm under the assumption that if their IP case was successful, whereas CoH was not, there had to be something of merit to the claim. Edited September 13, 2019 by subbacultchas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubakumbi Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 With the Freedom Force skin thing, as discussed, the IP holder went after someone actively making money off thier IP. Not a third party, the infringer. Now, if we take that to a CoH level, that means someone has to be streaming as an IP character or something and makng a profit because of the infringement, with the intent to do so. Even then, NCSoft is not part of the equation, nor is HC, the infringer making money gets the C&D. If we go with the idea that a third party could sue NCSoft to screw HC, would we not have to, in turn, outlaw pen and paper? I mean, if I can draw Supes (which I cannot, my artistic skills suck) well enough other people want to pay me and I do that and take the money, could the IP holder not sue the makers of the pen and paper for allowing the tools creation of the Supes images? It is an absurd idea, IMO. At this point, based on the words people have posted, IMO, this whole thing boils down a group of players that do not like clones/cosplay/homages in some way and simply want to boss the rest of us around, using fear and misinformation to achieve thier goals. Some of them have openly admitted such, IMO. I really see no other way to view this, based on the presented data, personally, beyond a few players that just want to bully the rest of us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, subbacultchas said: https://web.archive.org/web/20030620140457/http://www.skindex.net/marvel_letter.htm If anyone is interested in the C&D letter. This is about a year before they went after CoH btw, and I suspect the success of skindex might have had a little to do with it. Perhaps. But it's my belief the primary reason is at that time Marvel was a failing company desperate for money and saw someone with deep pockets. The lawsuit was always a stretch, but desperate companies take longshots. Those that can't innovate, litigate. Edit: In other words, Marvel was copyright trolling with the NCSoft lawsuit. Edited September 13, 2019 by MunkiLord 3 The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 minute ago, MunkiLord said: Perhaps. But it's my belief the primary reason is at that time Marvel was a failing company desperate for money and saw someone with deep pockets. The lawsuit was always a stretch, but desperate companies take longshots. Those that can't innovate, litigate. I do too. People forget that Marvel was falling down hard, selling off IP right and left to attempt to avoid bankruptcy at the time. They'd have sued their collective mothers if they'd thought there was enough of a paycheck in it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbiter Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said: Perhaps. But it's my belief the primary reason is at that time Marvel was a failing company desperate for money and saw someone with deep pockets. The lawsuit was always a stretch, but desperate companies take longshots. Those that can't innovate, litigate. I believe the judges's decision compared CoH to playdoh and said Cryptic only provided the medium. They were not responsible for what people did with it beyond enforcing reports. Edited September 13, 2019 by Frostbiter 2 Torchbearer Discount Heroes SG: Frostbiter - Ice/Ice Blaster Throneblade - Broadsword/Dark Armor Brute Silver Mantra - Martial Arts/Electric Armor Scrapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Just now, subbacultchas said: I do too. People forget that Marvel was falling down hard, selling off IP right and left to attempt to avoid bankruptcy at the time. They'd have sued their collective mothers if they'd thought there was enough of a paycheck in it. In good news though, that desperation is likely why we have the MCU. They had to take a gamble to stay alive and it worked. The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubakumbi Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Frostbiter said: I believe the judges's decision compared CoH to playdoh and said Cryptic only provided the medium. They were not responsible for what people did with it beyond enforcing reports. Boom. Just line pen and paper. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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