Devs: Too much powercreep, not enough challenge

[shaggy]

I love this game, but powercreep has killed almost all semblance of challenge in higher level content. Most high-level teams I run with are just max-level blasters nuking entire mobs into nothing, and defensive support sets and crowd control offer very little since there isn't much threat to the team afterwords. It's gotten to the point where I'd rather play with level 30~ teams over max level PI ones because the game still provides enough challenge  so that each role has a place, rather than just being a DPS steamroll. I wanted to run a Mind/FF controller but don't feel like it will be worth playing if it becomes more or less useless in a team past the mid-levels.

 

Is there any way we might see +5 difficulty added in the future to give high-level teams more of a challenge? Can we look forward to updates for support sets like Force Field to make them more useful in high level content?

Edited September 11, 2019 by shaggy

[Abraxus]

It's a delicate balance, and a tightrope that the Devs walk in any kinds of change.  Because there are folks who love things just the way they are, and those that seek change.  With the exception of QoL changes which are typically received well by all, other changes to the game always have their fans, and detractors; both sides of which make their perspectives, and opinions known.  Just peruse the September 10 Patch Notes thread for a bit of a taste.

 

Just gotta remember, there are always two sides to darn near any topic of discussion, and often, they both have valid points.

[drbuzzard]

Actually, I'd suggest you get on teams in DA. Incarnate content plays by different rules, and is inherently harder (higher number to softcap for example).

 

Sure, in an era of incarnate heroes, normal PI content is fairly laughable, that's true. However there's also incarnate content which isn't.

[Murcielago]

Agreed the game is pretty easy but that's part of the fun. There isn't as much an eye for balance as there was in live and this is what makes it feel "super."

[DSorrow]

The issue with challenge is that it comes in several forms and not all of those forms are fun for everyone. Personally, I usually classify PvE challenge in four categories:

 

1. The numbers challenge. Basically the "are you tall enough for this ride" type of challenge where the difficulty diminishes as your gear improves. This is, in my opinion, a very artificial form of difficulty because it usually just boils down to handicapping the player in some way. Obviously these types of challenges don't work (unless maintained) in games where the players obtain more power over time through new content releases, and they also often suffer from that fact that in order to be considered challenging, they become very exclusive as very specific team combinations and gear levels are required.
2. The puzzle challenge. Especially in the case of static puzzles, these also cease to be a challenge once the players learn what they have to do.
3. The strategic challenge. As the name implies, this basically challenges players by requiring adaptive playing. In CoX terms, this could be something like special enemies that require priority targeting, such as Sappers.
4. The don't make mistakes challenge. This is essentially the Dark Souls type of challenge. Everything is pretty fair, but mistakes are punished heavily.

My favorites out of these are 3 and to a lesser extent 4. I also don't think 4 is really applicable to CoX because the combat isn't interactive enough to leave space for "mistakes" as, for example, damage mitigation isn't decided by skill as much as it is decided by RNG. Puzzles are fun at first, but it's actually quite difficult to make puzzles that don't just become obnoxious pauses from action once you've done them a dozen times. Finally there's the numbers challenge which I think is pretty antithetical to CoX in general. Obviously some forms of this exist and have to exist, for example level requirements and expecting basic enhancements at 50, but I don't think we should ever get into the territory where IO sets are required unless we're talking about silly challenges like solo ITFs and such.

 

This pretty much leaves us with the strategic challenge which I think is the best fit for CoX. At higher levels of difficulty we should see a wider variety of dangerous individual enemies that would require special attention because they could debuff the tank, summon enough henchmen that aggro caps are surpassed, tank for the NPCs and so on. Up until now the design of dangerous enemy groups has been "let's slap every type of debuff and a DoT on every attack of every enemy" which basically leaves us with only one counter-strategy: nuke them before they nuke you.

 

I'm all for some challenging content, but I'd really like to avoid the pitfall of the new difficult stuff just being obnoxious and not fun. Like @Murcielago I prefer to play the "easy" stuff most of the time because I'm here to kill skuls with a nuclear powered steamroller. If I want real challenge, I can push my limits by soloing an ITF or LRSF or then I can just play a game that was designed to be challenging from the ground up.

[Murcielago]

LOL @ nuclear powered steamroller

[Bossk_Hogg]

I think it may be time to allow some higher difficulty settings. I would like to see spawn bosses be upgraded to elite bosses, and all named mission bosses to at least EB's (with option to go to AV).

 

Also consider upping the levels from +4 to +6 and roll back the purple patch slightly in regards to how debuffs are resisted, as buffs contribute more outside of -resistance and -regen. 

[Oubliette_Red]

9 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I think it may be time to allow some higher difficulty settings. I would like to see spawn bosses be upgraded to elite bosses, and all named mission bosses to at least EB's (with option to go to AV).

 

Also consider upping the levels from +4 to +6 and roll back the purple patch slightly in regards to how debuffs are resisted, as buffs contribute more outside of -resistance and -regen. 

Folks could also try whittling the team down to 4 or even 2.

 

I know that there is content out there that in general tends to be difficult for a good chunk of the players while others with their optimized builds can just wade through solo (sometimes  with the team lagging behind as steamroll everything.)

 

More difficulty option for players with their über builds I'm sure would be welcomed. 🙂

[Murcielago]

Why stop at +6? Why not just make it a slider that goes all the way to +9000?

[jubakumbi]

18 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Folks could also try whittling the team down to 4 or even 2.

 

I know that there is content out there that in general tends to be difficult for a good chunk of the players while others with their optimized builds can just wade through solo (sometimes  with the team lagging behind as steamroll everything.)

 

More difficulty option for players with their über builds I'm sure would be welcomed. 🙂

A smaller team works out well IME to add some challenge.

As has been pointed out, Incarnates have basically outlevelled PI, just as 50's outlevel Talos, really.

 

IMO, just increasing the +Levels will not do much.

Love the ideas of allowing EBs and/or AVs and more varied enemies.

 

In the end, CoH has been way more popular around 'making heroes' than it has been around 'challenge'.

MMOs all lose the challenge at maximum optimization.

 

Personally, I specifically choose to play 'characters' and then although I min-max them, I don't go FOTM (on purpose) with any of them.

IME, this makes for a nice balance - choose the flaws/weaknesses the character should have from an RP perspective and not just build pefect chess pieces...I get more attached to them and it makes the game more fun.

 

As I always like to point out in these threads as well, if you really want a challenge, play the stock market.

Personally, I play games like this to just relax my brain from the real world, I have enough hard choices to make everyday w/o my game demanding them.

[Frostbiter]

You could always not roll that OP Farming build or just stick to SOs if you want more challenge.

[Omega-202]

I think your issue is less about the lack of challenge/power creep than the fact that you're playing PI content that most teams are overtuned for while wanting to play a very undertuned build.  No offense meant, but even among Controllers, Mind/FF is definitely underpowered.  

 

Try running Dark Astoria content at +4/8 with less than a full team, where people need another 10% Defense to hit the incarnate defense cap.  Or Shadow Shard content where your bubbles matter because of the +tohit on enemies nullifying everyones personal defense.  Or +4/8 Cimerora content where the -Def makes the bubbles worth it.  

 

I don't think its valid to complain about power creep in PI.  PI is outleveled content.  

[Coyote]

17 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

You could always not roll that OP Farming build or just stick to SOs if you want more challenge.

 

No, because the point isn't that a SINGLE character is challenged. You could make a non-OP build and run with unslotted powers, and still be on a team that rolls from spawn to spawn about as fast as the characters can run from spawn to spawn, activate 1 or 2 AoE powers, and run to the next spawn. Your challenged build will not even be noticed in many Incarnate teams.

 

Now, at levels below Incarnate, there is a challenge and your build choices can make a difference. But in teams with characters that could each solo +4/x8, or at least do it in duos, what challenge can you create for your character.

 

Without drastic changes, though, I think that the only way to get real challenges is to solo or duo TFs, especially using some of the difficulty options. Not normal teams at Incarnate levels.

[Frostbiter]

See, I get what your saying but what you want is to be challenged on a full team of Incarnates. No one is going to have a decent answer on how to do that.

[Brutal Justice]

How about some tower defense type of maps/missions.  Where enemies come at you so fast your incarnate nukes can’t keep up. Not annoying mobs with annoying amounts of debuffs.  Standard amounts of debuffs and trickery is good.  Tanks have a hard time holding aggro. Chaos ensues. Everybody is clicking all the powers, push all the buttons!

 

The respec trials became much more fun when the wait was removed.  There are a couple Croatoa missions, that if sped up, would achieve this

 

Lock them out for level 50 content to prevent power leveling.  As long as AE farms exist they won’t cause farming issues.  I would rather be overcome by shear numbers than debuffs that turn me into NOT a super hero

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

See, I get what your saying but what you want is to be challenged on a full team of Incarnates. No one is going to have a decent answer on how to do that.

I don't think a decent answer is coming for that until HC becomes official. It feels like HC is going the long route knowing they are in negotiations as where other servers are going all in now.

 

I wouldn't mind a Sinister Six type of ordeal where an arc has a battle with multiple AVs.

[Zep]

Running your average TF/SF the AV(s) go down so fast you could blink and miss them. 

 

I remember when it took at least a little team work to get though a TF. I think incarnate powers/pets should not be available on sub 50 team/tf/sf play. Knock yourself out solo and 50+.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Zep

[Redlynne]

Try soloing the Shadow Shard Task Forces if you need more of a challenge.  Even with Incarnate orders of power magnitude, the Rularuu are still a potent threat to almost everyone.

[jshmoe1236123]

Part of the fun for me now has been finding things to do that were once unheard of in the past.  My buddy and I duo'd the STF with our scrappers.  We've solo'd other TFs.  This has been a new game now that we have all this power.  We are super and I feel super.

[DarknessEternal]

I want to play CoH as it was, which is what this currently is.

 

I don't want to play some else's game.

[Twisted Toon]

18 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

See, I get what your saying but what you want is to be challenged on a full team of Incarnates. No one is going to have a decent answer on how to do that.

I have an answer for that. Unslot the entire team's incarnate slots. Remove the benefits of the Incarnate slots and the content would be more challenging. Then, run an incarnate mission or 12. Better yet, try a few iTrials (Tinman) without the use of the incarnate abilities. That should be challenging enough for anyone.

[Ruin Mage]

Same with what DE said. The power creep was set in by the original devs, and it was only going to get worse with future Incarnate content/slots.

Well... "worse"

It's a superhero game, power creep isn't the worst thing imaginable.

Yet, adding more challenge (difficulty levels, etc) would be nice. I just don't think its on the highest priority list for the HC Dev team.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Shadeknight

[Frostbiter]

3 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

I have an answer for that. Unslot the entire team's incarnate slots. Remove the benefits of the Incarnate slots and the content would be more challenging. Then, run an incarnate mission or 12. Better yet, try a few iTrials (Tinman) without the use of the incarnate abilities. That should be challenging enough for anyone.

So the best way to challenge a team of incarnates is for them to not be incarnates. Ok.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

So the best way to challenge a team of incarnates is for them to not be incarnates. Ok.

Well, in most every MMO, once you reach the Apex of Power...you have become god-like...the only challenges left are the ones you create for yourself.

There is not a single MMO forum I have ever read that did not have this issue.

It is simply a function of the type of game this is.

As soon as more difficult content gets added, then there will be a call for more powerful rewards and the cycle just continues...

[honoroit]

At some point, it is time to roll an alt. 

 

Take diablo, your all primaled, you have gear like that for all specs, youve greater rifted to as high as you can go without mainlining speed, and the loot system has dropped you hints with items for other classes you melt or that clog up your stash. It's time to reroll. 

 

Couldn't coh have something like greater rifts? 

 

Perhaps yes, and forever harder difficulty scaling, but what would it award you? 

 

Also pvp. Nothing quite like facing humans.