Meta-Feedback: the issue with melee/support AT ideas

[Replacement]

tl;dr and thesis: you gotta let the Paladin go.

 

Personal bits and bias before I launch into the meat: I have no idea where to post this and i'm sure most of you will say I should've kept my thoughts to myself. 

I am not fond of any "new set types."  Something like half armor/half support  requires too much work, and it just kicks the can down the road.  Now folks will want a halvzies/control AT, and a summon/halvzies.  I'm more interested in filling what feels missing, and it's clearly melee support.  I also need to confess that while I love Paladins in most games, I have zero desire to build one in CoH.  

 

Prong 1: Tanking.

The ongoing Tanker feedback threads have convinced me that no combination of Melee and Support sets can reasonably be allowed to have "tank" as part of their role.  The identities on the spectrum of Scrapper-Brute-Tanker are already tenuous, at best.  Adding a new tank-capable Support class upsets this balance way beyond a reasonable level.  I'm not saying tanking should be impossible -- but it should probably be a thing that requires certain sets and the Presence pool.

 

This is also what gets us down the path of creating entire new power set types whole-cloth, and all the uncertainty that comes along with it.  I'm really happy with what Rebirth is attempting with their Guardian, but nothing about it feels like it's part of CoH's original trajectory, which is my best description possible about the positive changes Homecoming has made.  Good, meaningful additions that fit the game's trajectory.

 

Prong 2: Empathy (and other difficult sets)

It could be a noise/signal ratio issue, but it seems to me Empathy is always the argued point about any Support/Melee (or vice versa) combo.  It's iconic, but there are some problems, here.  

 

1) While it obviously contributes to the stereotypical Paladin, there really aren't many comic book superheroes that fit this.  In fact, Empathy type healers are pretty rare entirely; let alone as a combo with awesome melee prowess.  In other words: this is a conflict of fantasy.  You are trying to wedge a medieval trope into a superhero comic book setting.

 

2) Empathy's core design principles are the most antithetical to a melee character.  Dominators still don't have Illusion Control.  That never stopped Paragon Studios from making the AT.  You focus on the powers that work.

 

3) This isn't really a "problem" of Empathy but I had a 3rd point to make and nowhere else to stick it: just like any other AT, proliferation can happen down the line.  But it requires first, a solid foundation of how the class is expected to play. 

 

And that brings us back to the thesis: the reason we want to talk about tanking and the reason we go straight to Empathy (a set not in particularly high demand elsewhere), is because we keep trying to create a one-stop shop for all your Paladin needs.  But if you build an AT for one specific flavor of character, it ceases to be an AT at all.

 

If this is a topic we continue to revisit, let's - as a community - focus on truly filling what's missing: support/melee combo characters.  There are a billion characters waiting to be realized in this space, and we'll never get to any of them as long as we can't move past Empathy.

 

 

[Rathulfr]

I must've missed the part of the conversations where someone suggested we marry Tankers to Empathy to create Paladins.  I'd like to see a melee/support class like a Paladin, but even Paladins (at least in the D&D or WoW sense of the word) aren't just tank-healers.  In fact, what I liked the most about playing Paladin in WoW was that I healed by doing damage: a certain percentage of my spells did both damage and healing, or toggled between damage/healing, depending on the target.

[Haijinx]

I tend to look at AT suggestions with a skeptical eye.  

 

Basically, if the AT suggestion can be accomplished with a group of powersets added to an existing AT, id suggest that instead.  Example adding assault sets to a Sents vs making Defense/Assault ATs

 

If just adding additional customization / pools / epics would work then id suggest that over groups of powersets ... 

 

And so on.  

 

A new AT should be the last option IMO, we have a lot already, and there's some balance tweaks in the works for those.

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

I must've missed the part of the conversations where someone suggested we marry Tankers to Empathy to create Paladins.  I'd like to see a melee/support class like a Paladin, but even Paladins (at least in the D&D or WoW sense of the word) aren't just tank-healers.  In fact, what I liked the most about playing Paladin in WoW was that I healed by doing damage: a certain percentage of my spells did both damage and healing, or toggled between damage/healing, depending on the target.

If you played the original iteration of "The Secret World" leech healing was a lot of fun in that game.  Funny enough assault rifle was the "healer's" weapon, you could target an enemy and target an ally to receive the healing.  Seeing as healing generated threat, people would build leach heal tanks that would aggro the enemies while simultaneously healing themselves.

 

It was a pretty good game, it actually had a good approach to gating content, essentially making you demonstrate you could do endgame content before you were allowed to.

[Jeuraud]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Basically, if the AT suggestion can be accomplished with a group of powersets added to an existing AT, id suggest that instead.  Example adding assault sets to a Sents vs making Defense/Assault ATs

This is a major paradigm shift and I like it.

Why not just port some Melee and Assault sets over to the Corrupter, and if the individual sets synergies with some or all of the BD sets great, if not, oh well.

CoHH is not CoHV, there is no need to protect us from us; document it (Preferably with an idea of a fix.), and move on.

If a Melee or Assault set just does not work with any of the BD sets drop it from selection until some CoHH Dev decides they would like to take a look at it. If there is a combo that is OP so what, there are already AT combos that are doing +4/8 content. If the Melee/Assault-BD combo is so OP that it disrupts the game then drop the Melee/Assault set from selection until some CoHH Dev decides to look at it.

 

We could have a vote here and decide the top 5 Melee and Assault sets to port over to the Corrupter to start.

I Vote for

Savage Assault

Martial Assault

[Haijinx]

Good point.  Corruptor could work too,

 

As long as the assault set is checked/ balanced/etc to fit, basically like they did with the Sent defense sets. 

 

 

[Replacement]

That seems fine in theory, but the desire for a dedicated melee/support is real. While I'm just unable to truly back something that just adds in armor powers and such, some tweaks really would be necessary on any of the buff-oriented sets.  Letting a corruptor just get Savage Assault, for example, is going to lead to them pairing it with something terrible for the task, like Empathy, and either build melee and die, or... Shoot birds.  And be dissatisfied that their fiction isn't being fulfilled.

 

Adding Assaults to Sentinels can work. Adding them to Corruptors is devastating.

 

I realize I'm walking a fine line, here: I don't want an AT created for a very specific character (a paladin, in this case), but I legitimately believe a melee/support is missing outside of that. If you can make a Paladin out of whatever AT comes of that, cool. But the AT comes first, and it should be something that fits the fiction.