Tank Aggro Cap

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

tanking AVs is supposed end-game difficulty

Not really. You run into - and someone tanks - your first AV while running a DFB, usually without any enhancements slotted.

[Gulbasaur]

33 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Not really. You run into - and someone tanks - your first AV while running a DFB, usually without any enhancements slotted.

Okay, poorly phrased. "Not something anyone could do" - it's meant to be a team enterprise. 

[Seigmoraig]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

Not really. You run into - and someone tanks - your first AV while running a DFB, usually without any enhancements slotted.

By tank the DFB AV,  you mean the AV spits random ground target nukes that take 10 seconds to blow up and people run out from under them ?
Tanking AVs, may or may not be slightly different in other parts of the game....

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Seigmoraig said:

By tank the DFB AV,  you mean the AV spits random ground target nukes that take 10 seconds to blow up and people run out from under them ?
Tanking AVs, may or may not be slightly different in other parts of the game....

I was actually referring to the Hellion AV (the first one you run into), but you also have the Vahz or Lost ones before you get to the Hydras. Baby AVs, sure... but AV class enemies.

 

In any case, "tanking" an AV is expected behavior for someone in a team setting for many story arcs, or for trials and task forces; soloing an AV is the "unusual" case (that any AT can be built for, thus the quotes around unusual), and herding AVs would be "endgame content" (see: LRSF).

 

[BlackSpectre]

If I may chime in... we can currently pull many more than 17 mobs. One problem is tankers can not CONTROL more than 17 mobs. Let’s say I managed to herd 3 full groups of 15. A tanker could only hold the aggro on 17 out of the 45 mobs who followed. At which time 30 of the mobs turn to attack the rest of the team.   The tanker’s ability to keep the team safe is severely handicapped by the aggro cap. Tankers are gimped because of it. 
 

I agree with all the previous pro-aggro comments. Increasing the aggro cap 2x or 3x would probably solve most of the problems. 
 

back on live I ran with about 15 SG members who loved tanks herding... and they did not play tanks. They were blasters, controllers, defenders, etc. they loved the play style. They immensely enjoyed the huge groups of mobs and it did make them feel more like heroes when they laid waste to the gigantic horde. And doing this was not without risk. Many a time, a single misstep would mean nearly instant death when dealing with a gigantic horde. People who didn’t understand this would be instantly killed, and many of them got very angry... feeling that bringing so many mobs down on the team was unjustified. This was merely deflecting blame from themselves. Instead of adapting, they chose to complain and have a tantrum. Many of these players were the Leroy Jenkins type who ran in blindly throwing strategy and caution to the wind. 
 

peesonally, I am aware enough of the issue to refrain from herding if anyone on the pick up team doesn’t like it. I’m also fine with letting a defender who wants to jump in first and take the alpha shot instead of the tank. Heck, I’m even ok with someone going off by themselves to fight mobs far away from the group. Whatever floats your boat. The only times I care what anyone does is when the team is depending on and relying on the cooperation of the player in order to succeed. The name of the game is to have fun after all.  
 

if we can’t increase the aggro cap because of coding complexities, and we can’t eliminate the aggro cap because of game balance, theN how about giving the players who don’t want an aggro cap a way to play without one? How about giving players in AE the ability to customize their play experience by giving them an option to remove the aggro cap from AE missions? 

[Doc_Scorpion]

20 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

If I may chime in... we can currently pull many more than 17 mobs. One problem is tankers can not CONTROL more than 17 mobs. Let’s say I managed to herd 3 full groups of 15. A tanker could only hold the aggro on 17 out of the 45 mobs who followed. At which time 30 of the mobs turn to attack the rest of the team.   The tanker’s ability to keep the team safe is severely handicapped by the aggro cap. Tankers are gimped because of it. 

Huh? That has to be among the silliest scenarios/arguments I've ever seen.  If you can't keep the team safe from 45 enemies - don't herd 45 enemies in the first place.  The tanks job is to hold aggro and contribute to the safety of the team.  If you pull more mobs than you can hold aggro for, you're failing at that job.  And you're deflecting blame from yourself.

I mean seriously, do you honestly think that "tanks are gimped because they can't pull off this outrageous stupid stunt" is an argument for increasing the aggro cap?

[Obitus]

11 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Huh? That has to be among the silliest scenarios/arguments I've ever seen.  If you can't keep the team safe from 45 enemies - don't herd 45 enemies in the first place.  The tanks job is to hold aggro and contribute to the safety of the team.  If you pull more mobs than you can hold aggro for, you're failing at that job.  And you're deflecting blame from yourself.

I mean seriously, do you honestly think that "tanks are gimped because they can't pull off this outrageous stupid stunt" is an argument for increasing the aggro cap?

Yeah, we can argue til the cows come home about whether the game as a whole is challenging enough, but it's pretty clear that the aggro cap, if anything, adds challenge where it's relevant: if your team pulls more than 17 mobs' aggro, then the non-tanks will have to take some of the heat.  I don't see how that's a bad thing.

 

And as much as I enjoyed herding 300 mobs into a dumpster and hitting them all with KO Blow*, back in the day, the fun was short-lived.  Let's not even think about going back to that.

 

(* - when Gauntlet was first introduced, there was a bug that allowed Tankers' single-target attacks to hit an unlimited number of mobs all at once, provided that those mobs were all packed into a single hit box.  Hilarious.)

Edited March 15, 2020 by Obitus

[Jimmy]

I'm moving this to the suggestions forum as it's not pertinent to what's currently being tested.

[BlackSpectre]

There are many times a team is confronted with more than 17 mobs. My point, and perhaps I wasn’t completely clear enough in my writing, Is that when battling any more than 17 mobs for any reason, if the tank already has aggro for 17, he can not taunt any other mob away from the team members. In this sense tanks are gimped. I hope that was clearer. 
 

Battling huge groups alters the gameplay and strategies used compared to what they are now. Many players prefer or at least want the option to play in that way. To make things more challenging, to make things more exciting, or just to make things different.  It’s all about customization and diversity to hold interest. 
 

This issue continues to surface. Obviously it’s not going away. Why not try to give all players what they want, especially if it’s a large group of them? Personally I would be playing at a different server that had the aggro cap removed right now except for the fact that Homecoming offers other benefits that when taken together are more important to me than this one, single, begrudging, annoying thorn in my side. That doesn’t mean It’s not important. All it means is I’m making a choice to get some things at the expense of others.  
 

To that end... what about just giving people the OPTION to play With or without an aggro cap? It could be a difficulty setting, or even an option in Options that is enabled or disabled. This idea could be implemented in a myriad of ways to make everyone happy. We don’t have to force everyone to play the same way.   I’m just throwing ideas out here... if a team is set without an aggro cap, they could be made invisible on the team lists to anyone who doesn’t have ”play without an aggro cap” enabled. Then it would be completely a non-issue.  Or a message could be sent along with invites that inform players that the team they will be joining has the aggro cap turned off before they accept. Or a prompt that every player has to accept in order to remain on the team. There are a lot of other things that could be done to make this work. Why not give people the option?

[SwitchFade]

Has anyone seen my horse?

[Obsidius]

Actually... isn't this a zombie thread?

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Obsidius

[BlackSpectre]

3 hours ago, Obitus said:

it's pretty clear that the aggro cap, if anything, adds challenge where it's relevant: if your team pulls more than 17 mobs' aggro, then the non-tanks will have to take some of the heat.  I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I am not arguing for an unlimited taunt. When there was no aggro cap, there were limits to how many mobs a tank could hold the aggro for... based on the duration and distance of the taunt. If the time went Over you lost the aggro.  If your taunt aura didn’t touch a mob, you lost the aggro. This risk of “over pulling” is definitely THE thing that made herding large groups interesting and more challenging for the team. Definitely keep that.   
 

It also forced the tank to do a lot more than just stand there. Trying to keep the aggro was a challenge. Currently, if a tank has aggro for 17 mobs, he’s at saturation. There’s absolutely nothing he can do except just stand there. Even if the tank notices a mob attacking a team member, rushes over and attacks the mob to protect his teammate, the mob completely ignores the tank and continues to attack the teammate. if the tank taunts the mob, it ignores him. There’s absolutely nothing a tank can do. Gimped. 
 

Prior to the aggro cap, a tank could save his teammate but he would risk losing aggro for the mobs he was holding, and they they would turn and attack the team. It made gameplay a lot more complex and interesting for a tank. A tank couldn’t always save everyone, but at least it was possible. 

In fact, if the aggro cap was removed, I would consider reducing taunt durations in order to provide more challenge. It would need to be balanced, but yeah, that could be a good thing. 
 

 

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, BlackSpectre said:

My point, and perhaps I wasn’t completely clear enough in my writing, Is that when battling any more than 17 mobs for any reason, if the tank already has aggro for 17, he can not taunt any other mob away from the team members. In this sense tanks are gimped. I hope that was clearer. 

No, it's just repeating what you said before.  And that means the answer is the same as before:  don't get in over your head and don't blame other people when you do.  I mean seriously, with rare exceptions you pretty much have to be working at it to be battling more than seventeen mobs at a time.

Tanks aren't gimped because they can't rescue people from getting themselves into an edge case by playing stupidly.
 

1 hour ago, BlackSpectre said:

Battling huge groups alters the gameplay and strategies used compared to what they are now. Many players prefer or at least want the option to play in that way. To make things more challenging, to make things more exciting, or just to make things different. 

Then I have great news for you!  If you enjoy battling huge groups, and want to battle huge groups, that's entirely possible without making a single change to game!  Set the diff to max, pull multiple groups of mobs, and BINGO!  A huge group is yours to enjoy.

But what you're asking for isn't to be able to battle huge groups.  What you're asking for is to be able to battle huge groups with significantly increased safety and significantly reduced risk.

/jay-[censored]-ranger

[kelika2]

no, herding sucks.  even if you increase the agro cap to 32 or 34 tanks will still demand that people wait to attack

[SwitchFade]

Oh look, my horse. Hey, anyone have a stick?

[ABlueThingy]

If the aggro cap is higher or unlimited... it kind of defeats the point of two tanks doesn't it?

 

Like, if you're not doing enough damage you... get more damage ATs

 

If you don't have enough protection you get more support ATs

 

And if you need more aggro control... pick up a second tank or a brute.

 

If you pull 45 mobs you have one Tanker take 17 and the other Tank/Brute take 17 and the remaining 21 will have to be spread between the Scrappers/Sents/MMs of the team. OR locked down by the Contollers/Dominators.  If you have all the mobs taken care of... well now the Blasters can shine by ripping them to shreads without restraint.

 

If one tank has unlimited aggro capacity or even just a higher aggro cap?  This has huge knock on effects.  You end up with one tanker, one def and 6 blasters. Now just have the blasters unload AoEs and clean up.  Do enough damage fast enough and you can burn down a group and move on.

 

You only need 1 Tank, 1 Def, 6 Blasters.  With a little wiggle room.  With Incarnates now you might be able to swap that Def for another Blaster.

 

Scrappers are only useful if there's a danger of the DPS getting aggro... with no cap, no worries.  No need for Scrap, Blasters WAY out damage them.

 

No need for single target dps(Stalk), no time for debuffs to do anything so Corrs are a waste of time generally.  It's better to just pound them down into paste in one volley. No point in a Brute, all you need the tank for is to soak damage, not deal damage.  That's what the blasters are for.  And at this size of mob... it's Tanker or nothing. Cont and Dom are just taking a slot that a Blaster could use to be more effective.  You don't need controls when the Tank has perfect lock-down and a half-way decent support.

 

And I'm not talking about farming either, this was a STRONG trend in the game before aggro caps.  It will only be worse with IOs and Incarnates.  And I'm not trying to doomsay or slippery slope here... it's just... when you ask why this weird guardrail exists... it's because people kept slipping down that slope. 

 

Also, purely subjectively,  because it makes DPS boring as hell.  It's way more fun to play on the edge, just dodging the aggro and think tactically about when to use which attack.  I like it when the Tank takes the bulk of the foes and the scrapper has to grab two or three and survive the beating.  When the Blaster has to think before nuking because they risk the retaliation crushing them. With one unlimited-aggro tank it's just... push biggest button until move to next spawn.  I hate that kind of gameplay. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marine X]

I believe you can maintain more than 17 targets aggro but it requires work and slotting. If you have multiple powers that take taunt enhancements they each may taunt differently. A PBAoE hits the ones in a Radius around you, A Targeted AoE is just that, pick a target outside the radius. Then use Taunt for another group outside the radius by targeting them. The limitation is I think defined separately for each power, or at least that's how I've always done it, but I'm just a dumb old Tank Guy, not one of those speedy new fangled technique guys.

[siolfir]

15 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Oh look, my horse. Hey, anyone have a stick?

I think it's in use.

[BlackSpectre]

On 3/15/2020 at 7:52 PM, ABlueThingy said:

If the aggro cap is higher or unlimited... it kind of defeats the point of two tanks doesn't it?

 

Like, if you're not doing enough damage you... get more damage ATs

 

If you don't have enough protection you get more support ATs

 

And if you need more aggro control... pick up a second tank or a brute.

 

If you pull 45 mobs you have one Tanker take 17 and the other Tank/Brute take 17 and the remaining 21 will have to be spread between the Scrappers/Sents/MMs of the team. OR locked down by the Contollers/Dominators.  If you have all the mobs taken care of... well now the Blasters can shine by ripping them to shreads without restraint.

 

If one tank has unlimited aggro capacity or even just a higher aggro cap?  This has huge knock on effects.  You end up with one tanker, one def and 6 blasters. Now just have the blasters unload AoEs and clean up.  Do enough damage fast enough and you can burn down a group and move on.

 

You only need 1 Tank, 1 Def, 6 Blasters.  With a little wiggle room.  With Incarnates now you might be able to swap that Def for another Blaster.

 

Scrappers are only useful if there's a danger of the DPS getting aggro... with no cap, no worries.  No need for Scrap, Blasters WAY out damage them.

 

No need for single target dps(Stalk), no time for debuffs to do anything so Corrs are a waste of time generally.  It's better to just pound them down into paste in one volley. No point in a Brute, all you need the tank for is to soak damage, not deal damage.  That's what the blasters are for.  And at this size of mob... it's Tanker or nothing. Cont and Dom are just taking a slot that a Blaster could use to be more effective.  You don't need controls when the Tank has perfect lock-down and a half-way decent support.

 

And I'm not talking about farming either, this was a STRONG trend in the game before aggro caps.  It will only be worse with IOs and Incarnates.  And I'm not trying to doomsay or slippery slope here... it's just... when you ask why this weird guardrail exists... it's because people kept slipping down that slope. 

 

Also, purely subjectively,  because it makes DPS boring as hell.  It's way more fun to play on the edge, just dodging the aggro and think tactically about when to use which attack.  I like it when the Tank takes the bulk of the foes and the scrapper has to grab two or three and survive the beating.  When the Blaster has to think before nuking because they risk the retaliation crushing them. With one unlimited-aggro tank it's just... push biggest button until move to next spawn.  I hate that kind of gameplay. 

 

 

 

 

 

These are really good points. @ABlueThingy, you've won me over. And thank you to everyone else who chimed in, especially @Doc_Scorpion who pointed out "What you're asking for is to be able to battle huge groups with significantly increased safety and significantly reduced risk." My whole premise was based on the idea that larger groups add more risk and challenge, but if a tank HOLDS that aggro (meaning prevents mobs from attacking other teammates), it's not really any more risk. I was too focused on using the ability to hold aggro as the way to gather large amounts of mobs to attack the team, and too stuck on the aggro cap as the reason why we can't do this.    

 

So I guess I'm asking for 2 things:

1. The ability to gather many more mobs (but not "hold" their aggro)

2. The ability for a tank to taunt/aggro any mob even if at aggro cap  

 

I imagine gathering more mobs would look somewhat like the ability for any archetype or character to receive the aggro of an unlimited number of mobs but with reasonable time, distance, and perception constraints for the mobs to aggro and remain aggroed as well as other factors such as closer players or other threats that mobs may choose to attack instead.  Is this what would be considered the "game engine" or the AI? I have a sinking feeling that this might be beyond the ability for SCORE to change, considering limited resources. In fact, I'm not even sure anything needs to be changed. I might be describing exactly how the game currently operates if there was no aggro cap and no ability to hold aggro?

 

 

In any case, the aggro cap still feels incredibly artificial and awkward, even absurd when you're in a mob's face jumping up and down and they do nothing because you're at the aggro cap.  

 

I'm wondering if a small change to the mechanics of the aggro cap would help make things feel more natural? What if the nearest mobs and the ones most recently attacked were always aggroed but if the cap has been reached, the earliest aggroed mobs drop off and lose aggro?  Kind of like a revolving door. One goes in, another goes out.    

 

This would restore a tank's role as protector of the team. It would force strategic thinking on the tank. "If I try to grab the aggro of the mob attacking my defender, I know a mob that I currently hold will lose aggro and might attack my controller who is nearby," etc. Then it would be a mad rush to try to keep all the mobs off of the teammates. It would be a challenge, and would make the game much more fun for a tank and the whole team... but especially for the tank. Currently, if a tank is at aggro cap, and a mob is attacking another player, the tank can do absolutely nothing to help his teammate. It's not heroic, it's impotent. Powerless. 

 

 

Lastly, I just want to apologize for taking almost 3 months to reply. Real life got in the way and I had more important fish to fry. I think my last post was on March 15th, which is exactly when the pandemic started, schools closed, and life was thrown out of balance.  I also was starting to feel a bit discouraged with all of the beating a dead horse comments and hostility, and I needed to take a break from that as well.  I sincerely see some real problems with the game, and wish to help improve the game. If my solutions aren't the best, I'm completely open to suggestions and alternatives. 

  

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 3/16/2020 at 5:31 AM, Marine X said:

I believe you can maintain more than 17 targets aggro but it requires work and slotting. If you have multiple powers that take taunt enhancements they each may taunt differently. A PBAoE hits the ones in a Radius around you, A Targeted AoE is just that, pick a target outside the radius. Then use Taunt for another group outside the radius by targeting them. The limitation is I think defined separately for each power, or at least that's how I've always done it, but I'm just a dumb old Tank Guy, not one of those speedy new fangled technique guys.

You are in a way both right and wrong at the same time. Aggro cap is based on the player not the power. Your not actually having 20 or 30 targets all aggroed at once when your doing your taunt rotation, but what you are doing is juggling aggro. Its not like once any of us are at the aggro cap we cant get more aggro at us. It just means as we attack new targets some mobs will shift interest, up to and including running away,or heading back to their spawn location. We all are familiar with runners dragging out kill alls because of a rush into a large room.

 

But because you are being active at taunting, you are doing it right, because that is how a skilled tank helps pull aggro off of dps mass murder machine blasters. To tank for such is a constant demand upon the tank. Its the different between a passive look at me tank, and a here I am baddies come get me tank.

[Solarverse]

Wow, this thread is still going? I forgot all about this thread months ago, lol.

[ninja surprise]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:58 PM, SwitchFade said:

Also, you asked about stacking .. your taunt capability is cumulative, meaning aura, attacks and taunt can hit many or similar mobs and the "work" is spreading the Argo capturing around. So punch this way.... Taunt that way.... Move about to make aura work well... Etc.

Also there is a Taunt Duration, so critter's you've taunted beyond the 17 will suddenly "remember" they were taunted when one of the 17 in your aggro bubble get defeated.

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

Also there is a Taunt Duration, so critter's you've taunted beyond the 17 will suddenly "remember" they were taunted when one of the 17 in your aggro bubble get defeated.

Which is why I think it's stupid as being only 17. They just stand there...waiting their turn to fight you...like some cheap B-Rated movie. I know everyone is a big fan of this magical 17 number, me personally, I will never be on board with it. I never have been, I never will be. The nice round number of 30 should be the cap.

[RocketJefferson]

7 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Which is why I think it's stupid as being only 17. They just stand there...waiting their turn to fight you...like some cheap B-Rated movie. I know everyone is a big fan of this magical 17 number, me personally, I will never be on board with it. I never have been, I never will be. The nice round number of 30 should be the cap.

It is by far the most stupid mechanic in the game I think the way they come in waves as their mates get defeated whilst others stand idly by.

 

My primary issue with aggro cap these days is it was brought in back round The great nerfs of i5/6, when they also limited powers to 16 targets max. So the tanks aggro cap was one more than a blaster could nova for instance. Which kinda makes sense.

 

However now there’s judgement powers that can hit 40 targets, yet a tank can’t even aggro half of that. Which just seems daft to me. 
 

I know it’s never gonna get changed. But I do think the cap is outdated personally given the endgame content and powers.

[golstat2003]

I prefer the aggro cap as is.