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ShardWarrior

Accuracy at lower levels is painful

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What I'm observing with this event is how powerful -tohit debuffs are at low levels. Misses already hurt more at low levels in that you have fewer powers to use and less mitigation to keep you upright while waiting for the next one to recharge. When the enemy starts stacking abilities that magnify your chance for those misses, it can really have drastic effects.

 

I was curious, so I took a level 12 Stalker out to ToT alone with the combat attributes up, and here are the numbers I see. For reference, a small yellow inspiration is worth 7.5% to-hit, and the DFB buff is +12% to hit.  Just about everything a Vampire, Sorceress or Ghost does drops your to-hit by 7.5% for several seconds. A single Vampire briefly stacked me as high as -30% to hit at one point. The Witch is relatively gentle with only a -6% to hit debuff on her dark blasts and nothing on her dagger. On the other hand, the Crone's PBAoE to-hit debuff is a glorious -30% to-hit for anyone foolish enough to get within melee range of her, plus she has a full retinue of other powers that all carry a 7.5% to-hit debuff on top of that. A single Crone no problem layering over 50% to-hit debuff on my stalker. on top of all the damage and other things she was doing to try to kill me. With these debuff numbers, Shard's story sounds quite reasonable. If he was dealing with aggro for two or three characters at once, 40-60% to-hit debuff stacks were probably pretty common once a fight was going.

 

This isn't just an event problem, since the Circle at low levels use a lot of the same powers on Spectrals. I think that Crone power is straight lifted from Spectral Demon Lords.

 

I'd suggest that we perhaps look at scaling enemy debuffs below level 25.  Once we're level 30 or 40, we can absorb this kind of debuff and still function reasonably well, but at level 10-15, those are some very harsh numbers to fight through. Halving them would still make for a noticeable effect and a challenge at that level, but one that the player can be reasonably expected to have the tools to overcome, rather than just praying for generous RNG to get them through.

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1 hour ago, Troo said:

I remember hording DOs for later use. Of course that's when I was new to the game and at the time they were beneficial. There is a lot of game before level 22.

 

FYI - SOs are available at lower levels. I think Mr. Yin's even sells some that you can get at 10.

If you were able to get and do the Penelope Yin Faultline story line.  And each origin gets one specific kind of enhancement IIRC, and they will not bond with the 22+ SOs. 

 

I just have my level 50 crafters get lowbie salvage with AE tickets and craft enhancements as needed. 


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"It's not fun to miss."  Well, you're right - that's subjective, a perception, an opinion - and there's no way to argue against that.

"It's not fun to be defeated."  (Based on the rest of your post, and see above.)

 

Would you find it more fun if the risk of failure and/or defeat was entirely removed?

If not, how do you suggest that we retain that risk, that challenge, while doing away with the possibility of missing?

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Posted (edited)

I was on a LowB in Port Oaks and saw a player face plant in seconds, while ToTing, they did not even have a chance to run. The Door dropped an even level Boss, Lt and 2 Minions. Even level to the Player that is, they were all purple to me, and they were now free to run around.

 

9 hours ago, biostem said:

No, it really doesn't.  It takes a couple of hits to bring down minions and LTs,

Not after level 4, unless your running a Brute under steam, or a Stalker using their AS, and using the P2W Es.

Because of the MOB ramp up, the low TO/DO values, and the limited number of slots, the closer you get to SO's, the weaker you are compared to the MOBs. Also after level 4 you start seeing more +1s in missions, including +1 Named Lts after level 7.

Even if your able to keep Acc to 95%, sometimes it does not matter. I've seen the same power miss multiple times in a row, this is very evident when they are Transfusion and Twilight Grasp, and Transfusion is a 1.20 power.

 

This missing multiple times in a row, even at 95% Acc leads to the next point.

15 hours ago, cejmp said:

The game is driven by math.

It might be driven by math, but it's not about math, it's not even about fun in math, its about having Fun playing a Super.

It's irrelevant that the math works... if the Fun is constantly hampered by this math, and the fact that this subject has constantly popped up since the release of CoH, along with the Streakbreaker itself, says there is a problem.

Part of the problem I think is that the RNG goes to the hundredth place.

95 is supposed to be the cutoff, but you do not want to roll a 95 because you have 99 chances of failing the roll, while only 1 chance to pass.

This is a factor in that it seems the CoH Devs had never heard of KISS.

 

I've been RPGing since AD@D came out, and I understand that an RPG needs some randomness, but if I had a character that I tweaked to only fail on a 1, and I had a 1d20 that constantly rolled 1's, sometimes even multiple times in a row, I would have removed that dice... probably with a hammer.

The RPG is not about the 1d20, that's just a tool, it's about the fun you can have pretending to be something your not.

Edited by Jeuraud
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Posted (edited)

IMO, what this really proves - again, as if it needed to be - is that humans are bad at randomness, and discard data that doesn't fit with their expectations and assumptions.

Good luck is taken for granted, while bad luck "feels" unfair and biased.

A perfectly fair 50-50 coin-flip, or even one rigged 80-20 in our favor, feels unbalanced because we don't like to lose, and so we put more emotional weight on the negative outcomes, remember those more strongly.

Game designers can either cheat even more blatantly on behalf of players - who will, again, only notice the times they don't succeed - or the player(s) can recognize their biases and try to get over them.

Edited by Megajoule
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I think a better suggestion would be to limit the types of mobs that appear in ToT in Atlas Park, so that there isn't so much debuff.

In general, there is no problem with accuracy at lower levels, in normal missions.

 

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4 hours ago, Megajoule said:

IMO, what this really proves - again, as if it needed to be - is that humans are bad at randomness, and discard data that doesn't fit with their expectations and assumptions.

Good luck is taken for granted, while bad luck "feels" unfair and biased.

A perfectly fair 50-50 coin-flip, or even one rigged 80-20 in our favor, feels unbalanced because we don't like to lose, and so we put more emotional weight on the negative outcomes, remember those more strongly.

Game designers can either cheat even more blatantly on behalf of players - who will, again, only notice the times they don't succeed - or the player(s) can recognize their biases and try to get over them.

I don't disagree with you in general, except it doesn't offer or address any idea for a solution.  "Just get over it" is ignoring an important factor - fun.  I also never suggested or even implied that risk of defeat get removed completely. so no idea where you're getting that from.  I've been trying to approach this objectively from the point of view of a new player, like my kids, who don't have the years of experience or resources and are coming at this fresh.  I know I'm guilty of it too in that I sometimes forget what it was like when I first started playing.

 

Take these two replies, which I believe are more productive;

 

12 hours ago, Yoru-hime said:

What I'm observing with this event is how powerful -tohit debuffs are at low levels. Misses already hurt more at low levels in that you have fewer powers to use and less mitigation to keep you upright while waiting for the next one to recharge. When the enemy starts stacking abilities that magnify your chance for those misses, it can really have drastic effects.

 

I was curious, so I took a level 12 Stalker out to ToT alone with the combat attributes up, and here are the numbers I see. For reference, a small yellow inspiration is worth 7.5% to-hit, and the DFB buff is +12% to hit.  Just about everything a Vampire, Sorceress or Ghost does drops your to-hit by 7.5% for several seconds. A single Vampire briefly stacked me as high as -30% to hit at one point. The Witch is relatively gentle with only a -6% to hit debuff on her dark blasts and nothing on her dagger. On the other hand, the Crone's PBAoE to-hit debuff is a glorious -30% to-hit for anyone foolish enough to get within melee range of her, plus she has a full retinue of other powers that all carry a 7.5% to-hit debuff on top of that. A single Crone no problem layering over 50% to-hit debuff on my stalker. on top of all the damage and other things she was doing to try to kill me. With these debuff numbers, Shard's story sounds quite reasonable. If he was dealing with aggro for two or three characters at once, 40-60% to-hit debuff stacks were probably pretty common once a fight was going.

 

This isn't just an event problem, since the Circle at low levels use a lot of the same powers on Spectrals. I think that Crone power is straight lifted from Spectral Demon Lords.

 

I'd suggest that we perhaps look at scaling enemy debuffs below level 25.  Once we're level 30 or 40, we can absorb this kind of debuff and still function reasonably well, but at level 10-15, those are some very harsh numbers to fight through. Halving them would still make for a noticeable effect and a challenge at that level, but one that the player can be reasonably expected to have the tools to overcome, rather than just praying for generous RNG to get them through.

 

1 hour ago, krj12 said:

I think a better suggestion would be to limit the types of mobs that appear in ToT in Atlas Park, so that there isn't so much debuff.

I was attempting to approach this from the perspective of a new player like my kids.  Playing lower levels and missing significantly more often than not due to the amount of -ToHit being stacked, "just get over it" or having to stop after every mob to go run and refill on inspirations kind of sucks the fun out of the game and this event in particular.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I get it. If this is a new player's introduction to CoX, it seems like an exercise in futility.

This problem is specific to Trick or Treat. I rolled a new Savage Melee tank last night and was street sweeping +2 level hellions and Vahzilok as fast as my END would allow without fear of health, but when I switched to knocking on doors, it all went down hill. I only had prestige enhancements slotted. The door monsters con at my level, but are WAY harder. A level 5-6 warwolf is tough, but not impossible. But get a wolf AND a Vampire, or a vampire and a crone! Yikes! The vampires were taking 8-10 successful hits (same level as me) to actually take down. Where-as a level 6 Vahzilok Is 2 or 3 hits tops. Some of those go down in a single hit when the proc goes off. A ToT generated zombie; not a problem. But you (lev 6 maybe) vs. a sorceress, a werewolf AND a spirit was just resultant in emptying your Insp tray + free trip to hospital. For as "boss-tough" as they are, they don't feel like they give a lot XP either. I opened about 10 doors. Got 2 pieces of salvage and no costumes. I then went back to street sweeping.  

 

Edited by Trademarked Name
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Trademarked Name (@Trademark)

Heroes: Joan (of Atlas), Monkey, Assault, Homunculous, Seismic & Fastball 

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Is the lesson here "don't trick or treat alone" or "trick or treating in teams for success"?

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22 hours ago, Trademarked Name said:

I get it. If this is a new player's introduction to CoX, it seems like an exercise in futility.

This problem is specific to Trick or Treat.

CoT are nasty with the -ToHit at lower levels too. 

 

17 hours ago, Troo said:

Is the lesson here "don't trick or treat alone" or "trick or treating in teams for success"?

We were teamed up. 

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On 10/3/2019 at 8:14 AM, ShardWarrior said:

I don't disagree with you in general, except it doesn't offer or address any idea for a solution.

The reason for that is likely because there's not an actual problem, at least with the game itself.  It's your own skewed perception that's giving you an issue, and the developers can't fix that for you. 

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Some suggestions for the low-level player:

 

Visit P2W to pick up free attacks and free enhancements.

 

Use purple & yellow inspirations. I realize that low level toons don't have many slots, so use 'em as you get 'em.

 

Buy boosters (as suggested: offense).

 

At lvl 7 you can slot lvl 10 IOs. Check the AH for cheapies if you can be gifted any from another character.

 

For CoT and ToT you must alter your strategy, if you don't have the defences or boosts to deal with the debuffs. If your entire team was individually fighting in close combat and it wasn't working, did you try maybe have one character tank while others sniped?

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28 minutes ago, The General said:

The reason for that is likely because there's not an actual problem, at least with the game itself. 

If you read the complete reply instead of cherry picking one sentence, you would see this isn't necessarily true.

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On 10/3/2019 at 1:40 AM, Megajoule said:

IMO, what this really proves - again, as if it needed to be - is that humans are bad at randomness, and discard data that doesn't fit with their expectations and assumptions.

Good luck is taken for granted, while bad luck "feels" unfair and biased.

A perfectly fair 50-50 coin-flip, or even one rigged 80-20 in our favor, feels unbalanced because we don't like to lose, and so we put more emotional weight on the negative outcomes, remember those more strongly.

Game designers can either cheat even more blatantly on behalf of players - who will, again, only notice the times they don't succeed - or the player(s) can recognize their biases and try to get over them.

It's also a problem with CoX's rng. It has a very bad habit of being "streaky", especially with generating excessive amounts of very high numbers. That's why they had to implement the streakbreaker in the first place, because we kept pointing out how often, even with 95% to hit, you'd get strings of 4, 5, 6, or more misses in a row.

 

Even now, I can certainly notice strings of misses (or pseudo-misses, due to streakbreaker) with 95% to hit. Miss, streakbreaker, miss, streakbreaker, miss, streakbreaker, miss, etc. And it happens even more often at around 75-80% to hit, where I'll quite often miss multiple swings in a row, the streakbreaker will kick in, and I'll go back to missing some more. The odds of that happening so often are extremely small. But it happens regularly.

 

Another thing I've noticed is that the rng for MOBS seems to function quite differently than it does for players. I've done some combat testing where, if mobs have about a 20-25% chance to hit me, they'll still land blows fairly regularly. On the other hand, if I'm debuffed to the point of only having 20-25% to hit, I'll land MAYBE one in ten swings. Consistently. And if I'm somehow dropped down to a 5-10% to hit, I MIGHT land one blow in fifty. If I'm lucky.

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On 10/3/2019 at 1:40 AM, Megajoule said:

IMO, what this really proves - again, as if it needed to be - is that humans are bad at randomness, and discard data that doesn't fit with their expectations and assumptions.

Yep... such as this.

Miss, SB, miss, SB, miss, SB, hit, hit, miss, SB, miss, SB

The probabilities for 2 Misses in a row with a 1miss Streakbreaker are  0.998%  to   0.25%

The probabilities for 2 Hits in a row are  81%  to  90.25%

The probabilities for 3 Misses in a row with a 1miss Streakbreaker are  0.0997%  to   0.0125%

The probabilities for 3 Hits in a row are  72.9%  to  85.74%

If I've done my math right the probability of the above pattern at 95% Acc is  0.00282%,

while the probability for 7 Hits in a row is  69.8%.

 

This is Data, whether You-all choose to discard it is up to you.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think it is definitely a RNG thing.  Yesterday morning my scrapper was ToTing and 5 or 6 in a row were costume drops.  Last night my MM was ToTing and 7 in a row were tricks. 

 

I dont know if accuracy is rolled on the probabilities in the above post or if it is rolled on the RNG.  If it is purely determined by the probabilities then most likely it is perception but Skittles should help.  If it is effected by the RNG...well...its definitely wonky.  Skittles may or may not help.  

Edited by EmmySky

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