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I am sure this is unpopular, but I miss the city life


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1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I'm not the one making the statement to the contrary of what myself and others have seen and even participated in.

Wait...so you agree with @Leogunner?  Or are you being contrary to his statements?  You can't have it both ways.  You are both being contrary to each other.

 

As for participation, @Leogunner been on the forums almost as long as you, he's got more posts than you.  He's more than proven himself capable of digesting information and doing math even.  So I'd say he's safe on the "participated in" box as well.  I know I am...  Because I am 100% certain you are suggesting we can't read and participate equally well.

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

So I really don't care if you guys believe us or not.  But it's hard these days to get through a lot of topics without calls for nerfs in some way. 

It's hard to believe people when they say their anecdotal evidence trumps hard numbers.  But to each their own I suppose.  Since you don't care, I guess we are done here...But I suspect you care a little and this isn't the last we've heard on this.

 

"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr

 

Global Handle: @JusticeBeliever ... Home servers on Live: Guardian ... Playing on: Everlasting

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16 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

I really wish people would either quit suggesting removing things, like AE, they don't like simply to force other people to play how they demand. Either that or I wish those people would quit playing the game. 

 

If you don't like that someone spends all or the majority of their time in AE or farms, it doesn't matter. How you feel simply doesn't matter when it comes to how someone else enjoys the game since they aren't harassing or abusing other people. 

BTW - Quoted for truth.  I too wish people would stop suggesting that AE hurts the game somehow.  Or farming, or any kind of power leveling.  There seem to be a lot of people who feel like they have the definitve answer for what "fun" is for all people.

"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr

 

Global Handle: @JusticeBeliever ... Home servers on Live: Guardian ... Playing on: Everlasting

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1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

Wait...so you agree with @Leogunner?  Or are you being contrary to his statements?  You can't have it both ways.  You are both being contrary to each other.

 

As for participation, @Leogunner been on the forums almost as long as you, he's got more posts than you.  He's more than proven himself capable of digesting information and doing math even.  So I'd say he's safe on the "participated in" box as well.  I know I am...  Because I am 100% certain you are suggesting we can't read and participate equally well.

It's hard to believe people when they say their anecdotal evidence trumps hard numbers.  But to each their own I suppose.  Since you don't care, I guess we are done here...But I suspect you care a little and this isn't the last we've heard on this.

 

Posting a list of topics isnt hard numbers.

 

You know it.

 

Not going to argue with you anymore because you are just arguing semantics for the sake of it.

 

You arent discrediting anything we have said. 

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4 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

BTW - Quoted for truth.  I too wish people would stop suggesting that AE hurts the game somehow.  Or farming, or any kind of power leveling.  There seem to be a lot of people who feel like they have the definitve answer for what "fun" is for all people.

And who is trying to have it both ways now?

 

You are in essance agreeing with what was originally said by agreeing to this.

 

But I'm 100% sure you will find a legalistic way to say and attempt to prove otherwise.

Edited by Infinitum
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1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

And who is trying to have it both ways now?

 

You are in essance agreeing with what was originally said by agreeing to this.

 

But I'm 100% sure you will find a legalistic way to say and attempt to prove otherwise.

One is an opinion.  The other is a fact.  It's not legalism, nor having it both ways.

 

I have frequently posted in defense of AE, farming, and powerleveling multiple times in the many threads I have "participated" in.  It's an opinion I have.  And honestly I don't do any of those things, I just don't feel that I own the definition of fun for you or anyone else.

 

It is a demonstrated fact, without evidence (that's the key here, evidence) to the contrary, that more people on these boards ask for things to be made easier, simpler, and have their characters be more powerful.  That's not an opinion.  Anyone can just go in and count the threads like Leogunner did.  It won't stop other people from coming back and saying "I feel that your counting is wrong", but that comes back to a feeling, not a fact.

 

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not going to argue with you anymore because you are just arguing semantics for the sake of it.

 

You arent discrediting anything we have said. 

And yet, you still are.  And I realize that nothing I say will discredit your beliefs in your own head.  You feel you are right, and no amount of math will sway you.  I really wasn't posting for you, but for other people who might be confused by the difference between fact and feeling.

 

Honestly @InfinitumI have no quarrel with you.  I just don't like reading that someone else's data is wrong but unwilling to provide evidence to the contrary.

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"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr

 

Global Handle: @JusticeBeliever ... Home servers on Live: Guardian ... Playing on: Everlasting

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I don't think the rate of how often people asks for buffs vs nerfs is really that important, and I also don't believe any numbers are going to change people's minds on what they really care about, that either the game is too fast, too slow, or just about right when it comes to leveling and the ease/difficulty of various things. For example, the call for broad sweeping nerfs stick out to me the most because I am strongly opposed to that as it would significantly impact me and my level of fun. The calls for making things easier in some way I don't give much attention to, because I think the game is overall in a good spot. I think most of such suggestions are unnecessary, but there would be little to no immediate negative impact on me.  Therefore I just don't care about those suggestions since I could either ignore or take advantage of such things depending on what I feel benefits me and my playtime.

 

edit: I'm not sure that my post brings anything of substance to the discussion. I just wanted to point out what my priority was and what I really care about on the subject of massive nerfs to my experience. I think more people should stop trying to reason with the people that try to control the fun of others and dismiss them instead.

Edited by MunkiLord
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35 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No, you can post titles to anything on here and call it yankee doodle dandy for all I care but until you read what's in some of them you wont get the whole picture.

Considering the atmosphere of this game in general, it is a faux pas to ask for nerfs.  I know people do anyway, but you will see FAR MORE people say something like "I know Titan Weapons is an outlier..." or "We all know Bio over performs..." or insert whatever powerset or AT that is very good...and then they will follow up with asking for buffs.  You cannot deny that because no one actually wants to nerf things.  The game isn't trying to be balanced in the realm that everything is tough to get/manage/progress because it's not trying to monetize the time spent on it.

 

You want to talk about "whole picture", why not friggen read past your bias against those that call for nerfs because if you're looking for them, of course it will seem like there are more. 

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5 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

One is an opinion.  The other is a fact.  It's not legalism, nor having it both ways.

 

I have frequently posted in defense of AE, farming, and powerleveling multiple times in the many threads I have "participated" in.  It's an opinion I have.  And honestly I don't do any of those things, I just don't feel that I own the definition of fun for you or anyone else.

 

It is a demonstrated fact, without evidence (that's the key here, evidence) to the contrary, that more people on these boards ask for things to be made easier, simpler, and have their characters be more powerful.  That's not an opinion.  Anyone can just go in and count the threads like Leogunner did.  It won't stop other people from coming back and saying "I feel that your counting is wrong", but that comes back to a feeling, not a fact.

 

And yet, you still are.  And I realize that nothing I say will discredit your beliefs in your own head.  You feel you are right, and no amount of math will sway you.  I really wasn't posting for you, but for other people who might be confused by the difference between fact and feeling.

 

Honestly @InfinitumI have no quarrel with you.  I just don't like reading that someone else's data is wrong but unwilling to provide evidence to the contrary.

Because I'm not going to search every topic for its internal content.

 

It's there though, no matter what you say it's there.

 

I don't expect you too either but to dismiss it outright is what you are accusing me of.

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1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Alrighty, you can't or won't prove it though.

I already did.  Your only counter was basically "that hasten thread was calling for nerfs, not buffs" but ignore the thread asking for +rech in swiftness to replace the need for some builds to want hasten.  It's the same gimme template.  Try harder.

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3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Considering the atmosphere of this game in general, it is a faux pas to ask for nerfs.  I know people do anyway, but you will see FAR MORE people say something like "I know Titan Weapons is an outlier..." or "We all know Bio over performs..." or insert whatever powerset or AT that is very good...and then they will follow up with asking for buffs.  You cannot deny that because no one actually wants to nerf things.  The game isn't trying to be balanced in the realm that everything is tough to get/manage/progress because it's not trying to monetize the time spent on it.

 

You want to talk about "whole picture", why not friggen read past your bias against those that call for nerfs because if you're looking for them, of course it will seem like there are more. 

hey look partner I just read topics looking for ways to improve or pass off good ideas to my group, but I see a crap ton of bad ideas in a lot of topics.  Some of them I go to bat against.

 

They are there whether you read them or not.

Edited by Infinitum
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2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I already did.  Your only counter was basically "that hasten thread was calling for nerfs, not buffs" but ignore the thread asking for +rech in swiftness to replace the need for some builds to want hasten.  It's the same gimme template.  Try harder.

Take your own advice, hasten wasn't the only thing listed, and honestly I'm not going to search them all back out.

 

The +recharge thread devolved into the hasten thread, it ended up the same call to nerf.

 

Burden of proof is on you, not me.

Edited by Infinitum
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4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

hof.hey look partner I just read topics looking for ways to improve or pass off good ideas to my group, but I see a crap ton of bad ideas in a lot of topics.  Some of them I go to bat against.

 

They are there whether you read them or not.

And I read topics about ideas and suggestions because I enjoy reading such topics.  I read a lot of bad suggestions to which I sometimes don't reply.  Other times, I will play devil's advocate to spark discussion or if I just considered aspects of an idea in other context and come up with my own spin on an idea.  I know the nerf threads exist and a lot of times they're ratio'ed by people that disagree.  That's not really the case compared to people asking for buffs though.

 

To reiterate, my post on the subject was merely responding to someone dismissing nerfs in general to say they aren't as common.  So far I've now been criticized about what basically pertains to the semantics of what the opposite of a nerf is and if the ratio is actually congruent while being asked to look at the 1st page of S&F board.  I even had to read some of those threads I skipped to prove the point.  I've at least tried to back up my statements.

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Leogunner's math and definitions may be completely out of hand (I've already demonstrated why), but without doing the actual math for how many posts are for gimmes/nerfs/other, I still think that the point is valid. There does seem to be an overall tendency towards asking for gimmes over nerfs. That being said, it is neither as one-sided as implied, nor is it out of hand in most instances.
 

I have also been attacked for suggesting that a huge nerf to Brutes (reducing their resistance cap by 5%) may be a good idea for differentiating between the roles of Brutes and Tankers. I understand that nerfs tend to be unpopular. This is also related to how certain past nerfs (Energy Melee, Tactical Arrow, Regeneration) went overboard. Thus the community has a history of negative experiences with nerfs that ought to be considered when outlining nerf proposals.

That being said, this larger picture has very little to do with whether the proposed nerfs are good or bad for the game.

My perspective is that forced third spaces through intentional inconvenience would distract from more players experiences than it would add to fewer players experiences. That is why I am against them.

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Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Take your own advice, hasten wasn't the only thing listed, and honestly I'm not going to search them all back out.

 

The +recharge thread devolved into the hasten thread, it ended up the same call to nerf.

 

Burden of proof is on you, not me.

Well the other things you listed are countered by straight opposite counter examples like the IO thing (yes, people question the level of defensive bonuses on set IOs a lot) countered by just straight up asking for more IOs, shifted bonuses or making them more easier to slot.

 

Not going to lie, I didn't read that whole hasten thread by @Steampunkette but it wasn't the only thread regarding +rech or hasten (and I don't mean the times she?(or maybe a mod did it) renamed the thread).  I don't know what it "devolved" into but that wasn't my claim to begin with.  It's purely what people ask for period.

 

Also I don't hold the burden of proof.  I was already asked to prove my stance using the 1st page of S&F.  I believe I've used that metric to prove my point.  Now the burden of proof is on you to prove that my conclusion is faulty.  Telling me to prove it with another metric is just shifting the goalpost.

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6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Well the other things you listed are countered by straight opposite counter examples like the IO thing (yes, people question the level of defensive bonuses on set IOs a lot) countered by just straight up asking for more IOs, shifted bonuses or making them more easier to slot.

 

Not going to lie, I didn't read that whole hasten thread by @Steampunkette but it wasn't the only thread regarding +rech or hasten (and I don't mean the times she?(or maybe a mod did it) renamed the thread).  I don't know what it "devolved" into but that wasn't my claim to begin with.  It's purely what people ask for period.

 

Also I don't hold the burden of proof.  I was already asked to prove my stance using the 1st page of S&F.  I believe I've used that metric to prove my point.  Now the burden of proof is on you to prove that my conclusion is faulty.  Telling me to prove it with another metric is just shifting the goalpost.

No its not, becausr you are still attacking the original position.

 

And you didnt prove anything.

 

Keep thinking you did thats ok.

Edited by Infinitum
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On 10/17/2019 at 5:43 PM, Bossk_Hogg said:

I'm an adult with a family, job, home and many other responsibilities. I'm done working for my fun. If you wanna waste your time physically going to the auction house, feel free. But don't ask to waste mine. 

 

To all the other forum busybodies constantly looking to add grind- please stop asking to take away MY options because of YOUR preferences, particularly when you still have YOUR option available.

That was the original, which I happen to agree with.

On 10/17/2019 at 7:31 PM, Leogunner said:

To play devil's advocate: it's far more often people are asking for more and more GIMME GIMME GIMMEs than for people to ask for those gimmes to be taken away.

You attacked the position there after the fact by posting the topics list.

 

Which proves nothing because there is actual content past those topics in a lot of cases.

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24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That was the original, which I happen to agree with.

You attacked the position there after the fact by posting the topics list.

 

Which proves nothing because there is actual content past those topics in a lot of cases.

The 1st quote didn't have a position I attacked. What I put up was an observation. @Bossk_Hogg didn't say everyone is asking for nerfs, he was targeting his message to those asking for nerfs. The observation was that there aren't as many as those asking for buffs. 

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21 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

I really wish people would either quit suggesting removing things, like AE, they don't like simply to force other people to play how they demand. Either that or I wish those people would quit playing the game. 

 

If you don't like that someone spends all or the majority of their time in AE or farms, it doesn't matter. How you feel simply doesn't matter when it comes to how someone else enjoys the game since they aren't harassing or abusing other people. 

AE farms actually keep the prices on IOs to a reasonable level, since they have to dump all those recipies that drop. 

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Bit of a meta comment here: This thread is following the usual trajectory of nerf thread.

 

1. Nerf(s) are proposed

2. The original proposal isn't sufficiently fleshed out to properly discuss (Not faulting posters it's a lot of work to do it right)

3. There's the counter reaction which by necessity is backed by more information.

{

4. Those that favor the nerf(s) dig in.

5. Those that dislike the nerf(s) up their game

}*

6. Obfuscation and distortion set in .

7. If things get heated enough it starts to get personal

 

This thread in particular is problematic because it's demanding that players be forced to play the game for a "community benefit" that they likely wouldn't enjoy or intrinsically want.

 

*=Repeating.

Edited by TheAdjustor
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