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Please Give Us the Option To Remove This...


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On 10/18/2019 at 6:57 AM, SaintD said:

"This is not a hard fix"

Says who? You?

Look, you chose the AT that lets you become a Crab Spider, you played it for 24 levels, then you chose to be a Crab Spider. Crab Spiders basically are their backpack and after all those choices and all those levels.....oh no wait, I have to wear the Crab Spider backpack to be a Crab Spider!? What a surprise!

You can't get rid of the backpack because Crab Spiders need it, the same way every other AT with a weapon has to actually use that weapon. End of.

Listen, continuity is great. But on a sincere note, not everyone enjoys the backpack. I as well as others have voiced over and over again that it is wrong to force a person to have an (semi-objectively ugly) crab backpack with only 2 customization options. People shouldn't be forced to have this. I understand that yes some of their general animations are tied to their backpack, but for example, this principle of "everyone other AT that has a weapon has to actually use that weapon" is true, however, there is a LARGE sweeping difference between a backpack YOU LITERALLY CANNOT GET RID OF EVEN IF YOU TURN OFF EVERY TOGGLE YOU POSSESS AND USE NO HITS versus TW/ or /Shield where you HAVE to toggle to see the shield and fight or click an attack to see your weapon. 

 

I mean personally, if it just simply appeared purely for the animations, OK. However, the ENTIRETY of a Crab's villainy? This is where I think this is comparing apples to oranges.

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16 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

Listen, continuity is great. But on a sincere note, not everyone enjoys the backpack. I as well as others have voiced over and over again that it is wrong to force a person to have an (semi-objectively ugly) crab backpack with only 2 customization options. People shouldn't be forced to have this. I understand that yes some of their general animations are tied to their backpack, but for example, this principle of "everyone other AT that has a weapon has to actually use that weapon" is true, however, there is a LARGE sweeping difference between a backpack YOU LITERALLY CANNOT GET RID OF EVEN IF YOU TURN OFF EVERY TOGGLE YOU POSSESS AND USE NO HITS versus TW/ or /Shield where you HAVE to toggle to see the shield and fight or click an attack to see your weapon. 

 

I mean personally, if it just simply appeared purely for the animations, OK. However, the ENTIRETY of a Crab's villainy? This is where I think this is comparing apples to oranges.

Something like this might be easier to rationalize too, if there were more "styles" of crab-pack.  Maybe a translucent energy crab pack. Maybe a boney / spikey organic crab pack (I'm thinking Kerrigan Queen of Blades here).  It could also make it easier to justify Crabs with different origins, or even make a crab-pack appealing to a NON crab as a costume choice, if it didn't come with an Arachnos logo and have two choices that are both high-tech instead of something that might be psionic/natural/magic/mutant. 

 

It would be controllable to have it appears vs not, same way there are Auras that are always on or Combat only.

 

That said.  I am a programmer. (NOT with homecoming, or any game company, i do medical software).  I know full well this could be a VERY large undertaking, in terms of artwork, in terms of code invasiveness, etc.  I do not beleive this can qualify as "Best use of limited man-hours" anytime soon.  But I think it's entirely reasonable to put the idea on an "It would be nice if..." list, as long as we don't form expectations.

Edited by MTeague
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21 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

I as well as others have voiced over and over again that it is wrong to force a person to have an (semi-objectively ugly) crab backpack with only 2 customization options. People shouldn't be forced to have this.


Nobody is forced to choose Crab as an archetype and thus nobody is forced to have the backpack.
 

5 hours ago, MTeague said:

It could also make it easier to justify Crabs with different origins, or even make a crab-pack appealing to a NON crab as a costume choice, if it didn't come with an Arachnos logo and have two choices that are both high-tech instead of something that might be psionic/natural/magic/mutant. 


*facepalm*  You do understand that a Crab is, by definition, an Arachnos technological construct?

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8 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:


Nobody is forced to choose Crab as an archetype and thus nobody is forced to have the backpack.
 


*facepalm*  You do understand that a Crab is, by definition, an Arachnos technological construct?

But that's not what I said? I said that if you choose to be a Crab, you're forced to have this backpack. There are a variety of reasons to choose a Crab over a Bane/Huntsman. No one should be forced to "deal with" this backpack at ALL times even when your toggles/powers aren't even in usage and it obscures a rather large visual component of the character (while some may argue there are elements of this in Night Widow/Fortunata, their claws are not an always seen large annoyance to look at/deal with, and other ATs with weapons often either have more customization options or only deal with seeing them in combat/toggles, this however is on all the time, is enormous, and obscures, so I don't really think comparing anything to it is apples to apples.)

 

In response to your other comment towards the other poster, yes, it is constructed by Arachnos, but it may not be aligned or in servitude to Arachnos anymore thus having another origin. Let's say for example, you were an Arachnos Soldier, but later found that you tapped into the Well of Furies to become an Incarnate thus are no longer the "origin" of your powers or say you were trained additionally by Ghost Widow and left to become a Hero and now possess magical netherworld capability and retained some of your old powers thus now have a "magical" origin

Edited by 3333053222
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36 minutes ago, 3333053222 said:

I said that if you choose to be a Crab, you're forced to have this backpack.


0.o  I'll try (again) to make this clearer.  If you choose to be a Crab, you choose to have a backpack.  Nobody is forcing anything on you.
 

38 minutes ago, 3333053222 said:

In response to your other comment towards the other poster, yes, it is constructed by Arachnos, but it may not be aligned or in servitude to Arachnos anymore thus having another origin.


0.o  Again with the illogic.  Once built by Arachnos, always built by Arachnos.  Who you're aligned with or in service to is irrelevant.  What you've added or become later is irrelevant.

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35 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:


0.o  I'll try (again) to make this clearer.  If you choose to be a Crab, you choose to have a backpack.  Nobody is forcing anything on you.
 


0.o  Again with the illogic.  Once built by Arachnos, always built by Arachnos.  Who you're aligned with or in service to is irrelevant.  What you've added or become later is irrelevant.

Yeah, my guy stole his gear... err, I mean it fell off the back of a truck. The forced story is one of the reasons the EAT and VEATS are low in popularity, so I see no reason to double down on it.

 

You should easily be able to have an invisible backpack, given there are invisible weapon options in icon. A lot of what the original devs said about Arachnos costume parts was flat out wrongs, such as that it was impossible to mix and match them with standard costume pieces.

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5 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

The forced story is one of the reasons the EAT and VEATS are low in popularity, so I see no reason to double down on it.


Again with the hype...  I'm not proposing on doubling down on anything.  I'm saying TANSTAAFL.  You want the advantages and powers, you get the inherent disadvantages, the same as any other AT.

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11 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:


0.o  I'll try (again) to make this clearer.  If you choose to be a Crab, you choose to have a backpack.  Nobody is forcing anything on you.
 


0.o  Again with the illogic.  Once built by Arachnos, always built by Arachnos.  Who you're aligned with or in service to is irrelevant.  What you've added or become later is irrelevant.

No, this is a fallacy. You do not choose the backpack because you chose the Crab. Forcing someone to have the backpack if they want to enjoy the playstyle even if their attacks do not even use the backpack whatsoever is indeed FORCING someone to have it on.

 

And that is untrue, it DOES matter. There are multiple characters with Origins that switched. Ghost Widow is a good example. She was originally a Night Widow (natural) that died and resurrected as a ghost, hence, now she is of MAGICAL origin. So yes, who you're aligned with and what their personal experiences are DOES matter to the origin. 

Edited by 3333053222
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1 hour ago, 3333053222 said:

You do not choose the backpack because you chose the Crab.


Words simply fail me.  I cannot understand how anyone can believe something so logically inconsistent.
 

1 hour ago, 3333053222 said:

There are multiple characters with Origins that switched. Ghost Widow is a good example. She was originally a Night Widow (natural) that died and resurrected as a ghost, hence, now she is of MAGICAL origin.


That's an assumption you've pulled from thin air.  And it's an irrelevant one as the VEATs are defined as being Arachnos creations.

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32 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:


Words simply fail me.  I cannot understand how anyone can believe something so logically inconsistent.
 


That's an assumption you've pulled from thin air.  And it's an irrelevant one as the VEATs are defined as being Arachnos creations.

No it isn't. Let's say for example, I went into a store and wanted to buy a particular jacket that was in an ugly shade of red but I loved the jacket. That happens to be the only color that jacket comes in. Just because I choose to like the jacket and love the styling of it does not mean that I take the colors with it to buy the jacket or use it. To have that jacket be only in that color forces me as a consumer to wear that color which I wouldn't like. Thus, we have petitions, and people ask companies to add more variety to the clothing. Just because I chose to like the jacket doesn't mean I should be forced to like or "live with" the colors.

 

Also, this assumption that "once built by Arachnos, always built by Arachnos," isn't true once we start considering story factors. Ghost Widow is a relevant example, she was as I said, a Night Widow (natural origin) turned into a "Dominator" (really more of a dark/dark Corruptor) and now has an entirely different origin than her counterpart in Praetoria which is of Natural origin as she is alive and does not possess the telepathic Seer network capability that Ghost Widow has nor the soul or negative energy Ghost Widow in her Primal form utilizes. Thus it is easy to conclude that when Ghost Widow died, she became of magic origin and no longer retains her natural origin anymore.

 

Such character concepts, such as escaping Arachnos, or being killed by Ghost Widow and breaking from of her soul control would indeed by this game's own standard, put you into a Magic origin. Thus, the idea for magic-origin themed backpacks wouldn't be that much of a stretch, plus for overall players, it would benefit them to have more customization options.

 

I do not see why there is such a thematic or story reason to so rigidly hold onto a backpack you don't want to have or have very little customization options for it in this state of the game with alignment switching, coming back as a ghost, etc. all exist as part of this game's lore and gameplay.

Edited by 3333053222
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11 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

No it isn't. Let's say for example, I went into a store and wanted to buy a particular jacket that was in an ugly shade of red but I loved the jacket. That happens to be the only color that jacket comes in. Just because I choose to like the jacket and love the styling of it does not mean that I take the colors with it to buy the jacket or use it.


Choosing to like the jacket (like Crab AT) is not the same as choosing to buy the jacket (choosing the Crab AT).  Setting aside the logical fallacy of comparing apples to oranges...  If you choose to buy the jacket (chose the Crab AT), you're decided you can live with the color you don't like because you can't live without the cut and styling.

If you don't like the color, don't buy the jacket.  If you choose to buy the jacket anyhow, don't blame others for the consequences of your choice.

(And least, that's the best I can get out of the convoluted "logic" of what you wrote.)
 

11 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

I do not see why there is such a thematic or story reason to so rigidly hold onto a backpack


0.o  Right.  You don't see why there is a thematic or story reason to hang onto the part that defines the AT.

 

11 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

Thus it is easy to conclude that when Ghost Widow died, she became of magic origin and no longer retains her natural origin anymore.


It's easy to reach a predetermined conclusion when you rest your arguments on assumptions designed to reach that conclusion.

And with that, I'm done here.  I've repeated myself until I'm blue in that face - and the only response is ever more convoluted and bizarre (il)logic. 

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I'm having trouble understanding why this idea gets so much resistance. People seem to be forgetting that Huntsman builds are a thing, and some use the Crab side but don't take any powers that use the pack. Unless it's the thought of some people being cheeky and using it to shoot bullets and energy from an invisible gun over their shoulder like some kinda invisible gun wizard or something.

No offense, Stan, but some of us would call that position a "strawman." To my knowledge, or at least for me, people aren't asking for the backpack to be removed from the archetype as that's just silly; only to have an option to not wear it.

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11 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

 

 

At minimum, if you don't have any crab backpack attacks, you should't have to wear the backpack. 

I think this would work.  Allowing you to get the crab armor, spiderlings, omega bomb.  

 

Pretty much like a bane who skips mace attacks 

 

But if you want crab attacks, well those come from the crab pack.

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The Widows and Soldiers took an astounding amount of hackwork and kudgefuckery to get working, both as regards their powersets and regards their costumes.  The Crab Backpack is part of that kludgefuckery.  Poking at any part of that Jenga tower is asking for a collapse.  The least-risky option would be different-looking packs for folks not actually RPing a Crab; if that's what you're interested in, then I'm sure the Homecoming team would be more than happy to include your model/mesh/texture/rigging once you actually make it.

 

Also, lorewise?  The backpack is a SPINAL GRAFT.  Remove backpack = remove most of your spinal column.  Congrats, you are now Professor Xavier minus the telepathy!  Except it's also wired directly into your central nervous system, so there's a lobotomy involved too.

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4 hours ago, Sniktch said:

Also, lorewise?  The backpack is a SPINAL GRAFT.  Remove backpack = remove most of your spinal column.  Congrats, you are now Professor Xavier minus the telepathy!  Except it's also wired directly into your central nervous system, so there's a lobotomy involved too.

Unless your character lore is as a Huntsman. I'd accept technical limitations though if it really is that difficult to make the backpack an optional part of one's costume.

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20 hours ago, Sniktch said:

The Widows and Soldiers took an astounding amount of hackwork and kudgefuckery to get working, both as regards their powersets and regards their costumes.  The Crab Backpack is part of that kludgefuckery.  Poking at any part of that Jenga tower is asking for a collapse.  The least-risky option would be different-looking packs for folks not actually RPing a Crab; if that's what you're interested in, then I'm sure the Homecoming team would be more than happy to include your model/mesh/texture/rigging once you actually make it.

 

Also, lorewise?  The backpack is a SPINAL GRAFT.  Remove backpack = remove most of your spinal column.  Congrats, you are now Professor Xavier minus the telepathy!  Except it's also wired directly into your central nervous system, so there's a lobotomy involved too.

Screw lore. Seriously, who cares other than a bunch of forum busybodies intent on cramming a story down other players throats? I say let people come up with whatever backstory they want for the character.

 

 The Crab AT should be thought of as a collection of powers and gadgets. If they reskinned the backpack to be weapon systems popping out Warmachine style, the popularity of the AT would likely skyrocket. The forced story is one of the reasons why the EAT and VEAT are lower in popularity. Opening the design space to more concepts hurts no one.

 

Also, it seems the devs lied about how hard it was to get the costumes working. Go into icon with the -n filter. Other than the buttcape, you can mix and match widow parts with many other options. Despite them repeatedly telling us this was impossible, it was actually already in the game. Like asymetrical costume parts, it was something the original devs could have done, but couldnt be bothered with implementing, even when shown how to do it.  

Edited by Bossk_Hogg
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  • 11 months later

I started with a Bane and made a second build, which is a Crab, and now I'm stuck with the Crab backpack across all my costume slots (on the original Bane build). No amount of loading a new outfit will get rid of the backpack. So a second build is not an option to get rid of the backpack.  

Edited by Eve
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