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Amyante

How hard is it to mess up on builds?

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As title.

 

Basically, i've got some combos i'd like to try out, mostly flavor based, but as a newbie at this i was wondering how hard/easy it is to end up with something that simply won't survive if it isn't at least tricked out and optimized.


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"Watch your step... If you fall, you'll damage the floor."

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Inefficient slotting doesn't make you worse than you are with no slots. Slotting for peak sets will let you take a toon to insane capabilities but rarely will not having "the ultimate" build cripple your ability to enjoy the game unless you can only enjoy the game by having the ultimate build. 

 

Every slot you put an enhancer in makes your character more effective. IO sets take it a step further. That's it. You can absolutely play the vast majority of the game with nothing but Single Origin enhancements, the game was played with SOs (and Hamidon Origin for the truly l33t)  for about a third of it's life. 

 

I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for, but this game is very casual and new player friendly. The difficulty can be adjusted easily and tuned to your personal liking. If you play long enough and want to start setting foot into the "solo an AV/GM/+4/8 " arena then you'll need to start min/maxing.

 

But if you are checking out toons to see if you like them for the long haul, get IO's at around 27-33. That gets you better than SO bonuses and will give you an idea of how the sets and AT will play. Sets only make life easier. 

 

It'd be easier to give you an idea of what combos you are considering. It's easy to say a TW/Bio with a weak build will still crush most content, but on an elec/storm controller it's different. There are different things you want to achieve. Sets are just a goal, really. As in, "just how badass can I really be?" kind of a goal. 

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How easy is it to screw up a build?
Incredibly easy!

Does this make builds that aren't absolutely perfect killing ARRESTING! machines unenjoyable  to play?  Hell no.

A lot of it comes down to "HOW did you screw the build up?"

Six slotted Brawl?  Survivable.
Took a tank and then ONLY took the T1 Armor?  Uh...Yeah...You're gonna have PROBLEMS.

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If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

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Get and use Mids Reborn for crafting builds.  Then login to HC Beta to try them out.  You can create a char, boost it to 50, and get all the enhancements for free.  You need never screw up a build, or if you do, it won't cost you anything but time.

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@Rathstar

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Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior

Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable

Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer

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Thanks. It's not about AV min-maxing, i haven't gotten a character to 20 yet because i keep second guessing myself, but there are other games that vigorously punish you if you dare to take anything resembling a subpar ability somewhere down the line, or slot anything other than an ideally RNG'd McGuffin to each specific position. 

 

Good to know this game isn't one of them 🙂


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"Watch your step... If you fall, you'll damage the floor."

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8 hours ago, Amyante said:

Thanks. It's not about AV min-maxing, i haven't gotten a character to 20 yet because i keep second guessing myself, but there are other games that vigorously punish you if you dare to take anything resembling a subpar ability somewhere down the line, or slot anything other than an ideally RNG'd McGuffin to each specific position. 

 

Good to know this game isn't one of them 🙂

Not only is it not one of them... its a game where the community will actively support you if you're running a "challenge build." One guy I ran into last night was playing a blaster, but was going to use nothing but brawl and temp powers to get through content and was having to turn people away from trying to give him millions of influence so he'd have all the temp powers he'd need because he wanted to see how far he could get using only influence he earned himself.

 

Less extreme examples of self-challenging include things like "Forever Young" (use only your level one powers), "Petless Mastermind" (what it says on the tin) or "Slotless" (i.e. no enhancements in any powers) runs.

 

Honestly, as long as you put at least one accuracy you qualify for (training, dual- or single-origin depending on level, the vendors automatically include the ones you can use at your level) into your attacks, you'll not be so gimped you can't at least run solo missions.

 

Also worth noting is that you have an alternate build and a number of free respecs as you level up too. I'm stingy with mine because a lot of times you can build out of a hole and the problem is more the order your powers are taken in (I often make the mistake of not getting my defensive set powers on scrappers until I start face-planting repeatedly because I want something like a full attack chain ASAP... lots of inspirations to carry me through until I can pick up the defensives ASAP fixes it).

 

Related to this, the level-based power unlocks also serve to help prevent this from happening, or at least give you a chance to catch up if you made some bad pool picks. Your primaries hit a wall at certain points (no new option at level 10, 14-16, 20-24, 28-30, 35+) and you'll HAVE to have picked at least 1 pool power at level 24 simply because if you pick nothing but primaries and secondaries you'll have every unlocked one picked at that point. You'll have to have at least 2 pool picks at level 30 for the same reason. The ancillary/epic powers can be useful in the 35+ range, but they can be skipped too in favor of more primary/secondaries.

 

And if its STILL awful at that point... I believe you get a free respec every ten levels and can buy more with merits. There's also respec trials you can undergo that helpful players will gladly assist with too if its really bad.

 

The point is... there's almost no build out there that can't become playable. And the help channel in-game is extremely useful as a resource to do so if you're ever in doubt.

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Thanks. Tossed my Widow build into the Archetypes subforum, here's to hoping i didn't make any glaring mistakes (as hard as that is to do, of course). Hopefully it's limited to an oversight or two, getting Smash/Lethal RES up was kind of a pain to figure out. 

 

First version had 38% or so RES, couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get that number up until i realized most of it actually needed to come from set bonuses 😄 

Edited by Amyante

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"Watch your step... If you fall, you'll damage the floor."

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This game doesn't "punish you" for having a sub optimal build.   But it does give limited "free" opportunities to change your mind after selecting a power.  You can swap enhancements in and out pretty easily, but if you want to replace an entire power or move a slot, you have to do a full respec.  There are free respecs, but not unlimited free respecs.   I recommend working out your build ahead of time (Mid's Reborn is best tool, but you can do it in a spreadsheet or on paper).  I usually find myself doing a level 22 respec build with IOs and either a level 32 or 37 build plan where I start to add some set IOs.  Then I do to a final respec at 50.  Having a plan allows you to go to the trainer when you level up and knowing what you want, rather then having to live with a decision you haven't completely thought through. 

 

As you level up and learn more about your power set, you can go back to the planner and make adjustments to your next respec plan.


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On 10/19/2019 at 7:17 PM, Hyperstrike said:

Six slotted Brawl?  Survivable.

And sometimes that six-slotted brawl gets you the 3.75% melee/ranged defense you need to hit the softcap and so its the best option you have on a tight build, ^_-

 

You will never break a character into being unusable, unless you really try to by skipping all your primary and secondary powers or something similarly crazy.

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My advice is to spend time on the forums and try to learn as much as you can [from credible sources.]  That's what I did.  I devoted years of my life and learned all I could back when the CoH forums were live.  It was [and continues to be] the greatest, most supportive, and most empathic community in all of gaming.  None of us started out as experts.  We all had to learn, had to go through it.  But we did so with an underlying, implicit ascent to an idea:  that a new hero is born every day, and we want him or her to succeed.  When that happens, we all succeed. 

 

Obviously Mids Reborn is going to be very helpful for build planning, so you should get that if you haven't already.  I think the game rewards careful planning.  You need to see the numbers in order to make informed decisions about what to take and how to slot.  But you also need some baseline understanding in order recognize what is important.  There are some powers that require no slotting because the attribute they provide is very small and not worth trying to enhance.  There are other powers require no slotting because the attribute they provide is so high that further enhancing it would be overkill.  There are some powers that can be skipped because the attribute they provide does not work well or is not a core attribute to general gameplay.  There are other powers that must not be skipped because they are vital to the function of the set.  Learning to sort powers into these and various other categories is the beginning of CoH wisdom, but it is not the end. 

 

I interpreted your post differently than other responders to mean combinations of different powersets rather than simply proper power selection or adequate slotting.  What you will hear from most forum-goers will sound something like this:  all combinations are viable, but some are more viable than others.  This is a function of the powersets themselves, but also a function of the archetype to which the powerset is attached.  There are occasional variations depending upon which archetype is wielding the set.  This does not mean that one is "good" and the other is "bad"; only that they differ in trivial, or non-trivial, ways.  Some set combinations synergize with each other better than other combinations, although this is orders of magnitude less significant.  There is a small but non-zero number of sets that are mathematically inferior to other sets of the same class and are in need of buffs to bring parity in performance with their peers.  And rarely, very rarely, there are sets that involve mechanics that thwart the mechanics of other sets with which they are combined to some degree.  But this, even this, does not render them unplayable.  Simply sub-optimal. 

 

Being that this is an MMO, optimization is the name of the game for many.  But you must keep in mind that the difference in performance between a competent build and an optimized build is smaller in this game than in many others, as it was ostensibly or rhetorically balanced around the use of single-origin enhancements.  If you want to take on the game's toughest content, then yes, you will need to make extensive use of the invention system.  But it is perfectly viable, and quite common, to go from one to fifty without any set bonuses whatsoever.  Having an understanding of the underlying mechanics is more important than having access to the strongest enhancement types but being unable to leverage them to your best advantage. 

 

You will find the rabbit hole goes as deep as you'd care to explore.  But you need not explore it alone.  We welcome you to Paragon City.  A magnificent journey awaits you there.

 

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Formerly Negative_Man on the CoH forums (I'm more positive nowadays)

 

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On 10/21/2019 at 9:53 PM, Amyante said:

Thanks. Tossed my Widow build into the Archetypes subforum, here's to hoping i didn't make any glaring mistakes (as hard as that is to do, of course). Hopefully it's limited to an oversight or two, getting Smash/Lethal RES up was kind of a pain to figure out. 

 

First version had 38% or so RES, couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get that number up until i realized most of it actually needed to come from set bonuses 😄 

if it helps, my kamikaze melee fortunata has practically no resistance (s/l/e/n is just shield wall unique, 7.5 from defensive amplifier and whatever i'm getting from the reactive defenses sliding at any particular moment) and i don't think it's ever died. 

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Strict builds are only for people who want to do crazy stuff like so giant monsters or entire task forces. That's the outlier, not the average. CoH is a pretty "easy" game, in that it's difficulty is mostly adjustable (heck, you can even go -1/x1 if you want) and the easiest setting is generally possible to beat only using the powers you're forced to take. In short, the devs made sure that you'd have to really try hard to make a character that's totally unplayable, and you can do fine just picking powers that sound cool.

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On 10/20/2019 at 8:31 AM, Amyante said:

Thanks. It's not about AV min-maxing, i haven't gotten a character to 20 yet because i keep second guessing myself, but there are other games that vigorously punish you if you dare to take anything resembling a subpar ability somewhere down the line, or slot anything other than an ideally RNG'd McGuffin to each specific position. 

 

Good to know this game isn't one of them 🙂

This game throws respecs at you and with unslotters anything you buy or make enhancement wise you don't need can be ripped out of your build at a moments notice and thrown back up on the AH. Some toons don't need like an extensive mids plan if you know the sets and what you want to build the character for, and at the same time I've bought the wrong set for what I needed or whatever, spent 120m on a set I ended up not wanting, and did exactly what I said. I ripped it out, relisted it for what I paid for it, and in the end all I was out was AH fees. 

Edited by TheSpiritFox
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