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42 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

 

 

It's fine if you want to take your time and pick off enemies,

Zzzzz

 

 

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Also if the Blaster is constantly leading off mobs, then the Tanker needs to move faster. But most don't, which is why I never seek them out(so I'm clear, I don't turn them away).

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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Zzzzz

 

 

It's not my style either, I prefer Scrapperlock regardless of circumstances.

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I really should read through all 5 pages of this, but I'm not. I did read that one felt blasters are the least survivable of the various ATs he/she had played. 

I see this type of comment in various league chats, broadcast, help channel, lfg, etc. ALL the time about how weak blasters are. Rubbish! 

Badly played blasters are certainly lacking. But a skilled blaster will outlive many other ATs that are played by equally skilled players. The beautiful balance of damage, accuracy, endurance management, recharge and defense is like a chess game. Advance one piece too far, and you're out of control in other facets. But, with forethought, practice and intelligent slotting, blasters are a genuinely capable AT. 

The initial question by the OP was answered, and answered well. Other posters chimed in, but the OP thinks the use of damage mitigation from melee attacks "brass knuckles for a guy with a glass jaw" don't make sense. 

Here's something the OP didn't consider: a badly played blaster will indeed have a glass jaw. But a skilled one will not. And it has less to do with melee attacks, and more to do with the player behind the avatar. What inspirations do they carry? Do they make effective use of binds and/or macros? How much experience do they have with their character and the content? Many of us who played back in the early issues to closing know the content very well. There's just not many surprises. Because we know what to expect, we've learned how to position ourselves for best results. (admittedly, experience has less to do with skill, but it's still a factor) 

Perhaps a blaster just isn't a good fit. 

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2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

 

I cut out most to highlight what you're most wrong about. You're making huge assumptions that any random Blaster out there doesn't have any defenses. You're just declaring that Blasters have to take it slow or die or that rushing enemies style isn't right for an entire AT. You are just flat out wrong. First, I already provided a video showing a Blaster taking out Rom and his Nictus AV buddies solo, which you flat out said wasn't possible by any solo player. Funny you didn't reply to that after calling BS and being proven wrong.

 

It's fine if you want to take your time and pick off enemies, if that's what you enjoy I say go for it. But you're coming to a place people go to look for information and the information you are giving is flat out wrong. There are many ways to accomplish various goals. The fact that you don't use them, doesn't mean they simply don't exist and don't work. You're giving bad information to people and they should be aware of it.

Not really an assumption. I mentioned in an earlier post we're talking strickly about Primary/Secondary. There is in fact no Defense powers anywhere in there. You might get some defense from pools and such but that's not relevant to the discussion.

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46 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

Not really an assumption. I mentioned in an earlier post we're talking strickly about Primary/Secondary. There is in fact no Defense powers anywhere in there. You might get some defense from pools and such but that's not relevant to the discussion.

Of course it's relevant to the discussion. It is impossible to only take powers in your primary and secondary after certain levels. So the higher security level a character is, the more pool powers they must have

 

But I admit, if someone makes a build and decides not to take any defensive powers at all, then they won't have any defensive powers. Excluding options that every single Blaster has is framing the discussion in a way that does not reflect reality. 
 

Blasters can play in melee and not only survive, but thrive. Blasters can handle aggro and again survive and thrive. Blasters can also solo the ITF, among other task forces. All three of those things are proven facts. You stating otherwise is giving people bad information. You are objectively wrong and it's already been proven by two different videos in this thread. 

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The sustains are some of the best "defensive" powers available on a single power basis. 

 

The problem is perhaps that blasters only get that power and usually no other defensive powers (a couple sets have 2) 

 

Of course that's more than support sets typically get.

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On 10/24/2019 at 3:14 PM, Procellus said:

The newer secondaries and the sustains do a much better job of it, yes. But secondaries mostly just add another attack, that places you in a range that is disadvantageous, rather than setting the conditions to allow you to attack with greater ease. 

melee is not a disadvantageous range per se, at times it's an inevitable range, for instance like when you want to nuke.  Please don't tell me you skip those.  Or do you only play Ice, Arrow, Electrical or Water? 

 

And the secondaries are not about making it easy, they are about more damage, sustainability, control,, utility, and variety.    The various secondaries offer a wide range of powers allowing for different experiences and playstyles for all of the primaries.  Of course some synergize better than others.

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2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The sustains are some of the best "defensive" powers available on a single power basis. 

 

The problem is perhaps that blasters only get that power and usually no other defensive powers (a couple sets have 2) 

 

Of course that's more than support sets typically get.

and always remember that Sentinels are that way --------->

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On 10/26/2019 at 3:17 AM, Procellus said:

I can't believe that all these players that are smarterer and betterer than me keep missing my point.

 

What are the point of Blasters and do their Secondaries help them to fulfill that purpose?

 

It wasn't strictly about the melee attacks. It never was. It was about whether or not Blaster Secondaries helped them fulfill their primary purpose. Melee attacks just seem to take a greater percentage of the available powers in any given set.

 

What are Blasters? "AoE death dealing specialists" I hear. Great! Then why are a supermajority of the the melee attacks single target? Does that make sense for an AoE damage dealer?

 

"Burst damage!" you could reply and I think this is the strongest argument. But I would point out that, from the secondaries, only Build Up really does that and does it every 90 seconds without recharge enhancement and it is a 10 second duration. Great! Sounds bursty! But that's only one power. But the fact that in this thread there are multiple ideas about what the AT is supposed to be, I think, shows that the secondaries are a mess theme-wise and do not add to a cohesive whole.

 

Another thing is that I misspoke. I said "disadvantaged" when I should have said "less advantaged." For a lot of (most?) mobs keeping them at range halves their number of attacks. For an AT with little defense de facto halving the amount of thing being thrown our was is advantageous. If I were to draw a diagram like the one below and ask people, "In which scenario is the Blaster more advantaged?"

 

😀: Blaster

🤬: Bad guy

 

😀 --------------->🤬 or 😀🤬

 

Most people would say the former. That is my point.

 

Actually blasters are just damage. Ranged, Melee, AoE, PBAOE, Ranged AOE, Single Target, Cones... You name it. They are the jack of all damage. And there's way too much diversity in the primaries to try and shoe horn them into an AoE damage role. 

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1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The sustains are some of the best "defensive" powers available on a single power basis. 

 

The problem is perhaps that blasters only get that power and usually no other defensive powers (a couple sets have 2) 

 

Of course that's more than support sets typically get.

You're forgetting holds, stuns, imobiles, sleeps, slows, drains and area denial. Dropping caltrops on a spawn can be as effective as any defensive power as an example. I think that some secondary sets could use a few tweaks, but I'm guessing that maybe you don't have enough experience using them to understand how useful they can actually be. And yeah they can synergize with primaries quite nicely too. You just have to give it a little thought and be creative in your build choices.

Edited by DocRadio

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3 minutes ago, DocRadio said:

You're forgetting holds, stuns, imobiles, sleeps, slows, drains and area denial. Dropping caltrops on a spawn can be as effective as any defensive set as an example. Then there's kiting. I think that some secondary sets could use a few tweaks, but I'm starting to think that maybe you don't have enough experience using them to understand how useful they can actually be.

Oh definitely, Supports also get debuffs and so on.  I was just referring to the no defensive powers portion.  

 

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5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Zzzzz

 

 

Me.... I prefer to be flexible. Against Crey, Nemesis, Council, Rikti… I go in guns blazing trying to murder any and everything in my path as quickly as possible. If you're talking Malta or Carnies.... then hell yeah I pick off the problematic mobs first.

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23 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Oh definitely, Supports also get debuffs and so on.  I was just referring to the no defensive powers portion.  

 

I see those things as active or soft defense. Anything that reduces or mitigates incoming damage is defense. (In my estimation... lots of people don't see it that way.) That includes debuffing attack rate or even the amount of time It takes a target to stand back up after I bounce him with a knockdown. I had a limited view of blasters for a long time. My first being a Fire/Fire/Flame Mastery blaster that I took to 50 way back in the day. I leveled in constant debt and frustration. I absolutely reviled the fire secondary, and saw its strength only in the number of skippable powers that could be used on pools. But finally I realized that I'd concentrated too much on my powers, and not enough on the behavior of my targets. How would a spawn react to an attack?, Could I mow them down before I got dusted. What inspires were effective, how to use line of sight, How to benefit from powers that made mobs run away or stay at distance. Which mobs did the most damage in Melee range and which melee attacks in my arsenal were worth getting up close and personal to use. Playing blasters of any build isn't super difficult, but you really have to do your homework and be ready to learn from your face plants.

Edited by DocRadio

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It really seems like RialVestro hasn't actually played a competently built Blaster.  All of what's being argued is wrong and sounds like someone who only experienced Blasters back in i5.

 

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3 hours ago, RialVestro said:

Not really an assumption. I mentioned in an earlier post we're talking strickly about Primary/Secondary. There is in fact no Defense powers anywhere in there. You might get some defense from pools and such but that's not relevant to the discussion.

Not at all true.

Some sustains have defense baked right in. Absorbs, heals and regens too.

Edited by DocRadio

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16 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

It really seems like RialVestro hasn't actually played a competently built Blaster.  All of what's being argued is wrong and sounds like someone who only experienced Blasters back in i5.

 

Looks that way. Things have changed for blasters. I honestly don't feel as squishy as I used to back in the day when I play my blasters. Don't get me wrong... I'm still packing them breakfrees like a crack fiend keeps his pipe close but I'm not using them as often. Heck I find myself doing missions and only having to resort to my inspire tray for Elite bosses.

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12 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Of course it's relevant to the discussion. It is impossible to only take powers in your primary and secondary after certain levels. So the higher security level a character is, the more pool powers they must have

 

But I admit, if someone makes a build and decides not to take any defensive powers at all, then they won't have any defensive powers. Excluding options that every single Blaster has is framing the discussion in a way that does not reflect reality. 
 

Blasters can play in melee and not only survive, but thrive. Blasters can handle aggro and again survive and thrive. Blasters can also solo the ITF, among other task forces. All three of those things are proven facts. You stating otherwise is giving people bad information. You are objectively wrong and it's already been proven by two different videos in this thread. 

The discussion is about how well Secondary powers support your Primary powers. So how are Pools relevant to that discussion? Your secondary is not a Defensive set, there are no Defensive powers in it, there for you have no Defense.

 

I could just as easily say you have no heals. Of course you can pick up the Medicine pool but when the Discussion is about your Primary/Secondary power sets having Medacine as a pool doesn't change the fact your Primary/Secondary never had any heals in it.

 

Oh and videos can be easily faked. 

 

All it takes to make a video that looks like you soloed the ITF is to make a Demorecord of a TEAM completing the ITF. Demorecord creates a text document of code. You then delete the code associated with the rest of your team leaving only 1 player left. Then when you convert that text document into an actual video you get something that looks like one player soloing the ITF. I used a similar method above to replace Admiral Shark and all of his pets with Captain Mako.

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21 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

The discussion is about how well Secondary powers support your Primary powers. So how are Pools relevant to that discussion? Your secondary is not a Defensive set, there are no Defensive powers in it, there for you have no Defense.

 

I could just as easily say you have no heals. Of course you can pick up the Medicine pool but when the Discussion is about your Primary/Secondary power sets having Medacine as a pool doesn't change the fact your Primary/Secondary never had any heals in it.

 

Oh and videos can be easily faked. 

 

All it takes to make a video that looks like you soloed the ITF is to make a Demorecord of a TEAM completing the ITF. Demorecord creates a text document of code. You then delete the code associated with the rest of your team leaving only 1 player left. Then when you convert that text document into an actual video you get something that looks like one player soloing the ITF. I used a similar method above to replace Admiral Shark and all of his pets with Captain Mako.

I'll ask directly, do you think the video(or videos) provided have been faked? Is that your response to proof that soloing Rom and his nictus can be done?

Edited by MunkiLord

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Claiming people are faking their videos is pretty audacious. It shouldn't be done lightly.

 

On the topic at hand, I agree with everyone saying blaster secondaries are fine. I made a fire blaster last night, which was also my first character and main years ago. He's awesome fun and aim+BU into Blaze+Fire Sword instantly deletes minions, good for problematic mooks. Will be easier with Blazing Bolt later I'm sure, but more than functional.

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4 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I'll ask directly, do you think the video(or videos) provided have been faked? Is that your response to proof that soloing Rom and his nictus can be done?

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

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13 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

Oh my sweet summer child... Someone buy Rial a stack of envenomed daggers. 

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To be fair he was designed to be a challenge to a level 35 team equipped with SOs, in i12, six issues before Incarnate.

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1 hour ago, RialVestro said:

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

You don't even watch the proof provided, and still claim it is faked, that's ridiculous. And @Damage Dealer did something impressive, so accusing his video of being fake is extreme. What you are saying here has been proven false, you not accepting reality does not change that. It has been soloed many times, by various ATs. You do not know what you are talking, your ignorance is truly astounding and the only reason I keep replying to you is so other people can see it for themselves. Your lack understanding of game mechanics and your arrogance makes you a detriment to new and uneducated players. 

 

 

Edit: A Sentinel soloed the STF and various characters have soloed Giant Monsters. All that faked too?

Edited by MunkiLord

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15 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

You don't even watch the proof provided, and still claim it is faked, that's ridiculous. And @Damage Dealer did something impressive, so accusing his video of being fake is extreme. What you are saying here has been proven false, you not accepting reality does not change that. It has been soloed many times, by various ATs. You do not know what you are talking, your ignorance is truly astounding and the only reason I keep replying to you is so other people can see it for themselves. You lack understanding of game mechanics and your arrogance makes you a detriment to new and uneducated players. 

Tbh what Rial is claiming... I just rolled my eyes at. Anyone can take 2 seconds and search solo ITF on Youtube, there are plenty of videos on this. The ITF has not been a challenge for vet players for a long time, especially on a full team. I have a video of my Fire/Dark troller and @Septipheranon his SS/FA duo'ing a MoITF for the lols and it was a snoozefest. 

Edit: Just so no one thinks my claim is "fake"... here's the link. 😛

 

Edited by Doomrider
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