Have the talks with NCsoft slowed down content progression?

[DR_Mechano]

Look at CoXG/Rebirth, they've had tons of stuff added, new powersets, a new AT, new costume options, lifting the restriction on NPC parts going to players (not all of them but those that make sense and work without any issue). Meanwhile CoXH has had 1 new AT (which is in need of a rework, admitted by the devs themselves since it is currently seen as a bit lackluster), We've not had any new costumes (we've had patterns but no actually new costume pieces) or had the restrictions lifted like on CoXG. We've had 2 new story arcs and a lot of back end power balancing work (which also goes on on CoXG I might add).

 

It just feels like things are a touch slow when compared to both Rebirth/CoXG and I'm curious if, because CoXH is looking to become 'official' that they're currently being rather conservative and restricting to mostly power changes.

Edited November 2, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Myrmidon]

You mean those other servers that have sworn that they run the game “as the Devs intended” have made major changes to it?

 

How about that.

[boggo2300]

Or perhaps, Homecoming is making sure new stuff they add is done correctly, not half assed hacks?

[Lines]

One thing to keep in mind is that the code for i24 and the code for i25 are very different. Since Ourodev has made i24 available, servers using it can reap the benefit of many people contributing. Any changes made in i24 would need a rework by HC before they make it into i25.

 

Hard to know which of these double-edged swords is worse.

[MrAxe]

Look at the quailty of some of that content, its awful. For example Telekinetic Assault that has one actual TK power, is wildly unbalanced and uses recycled assets? No thank you. I'd rather have slow, good quality content like Force of Will than what I've seen on other servers. Hell we're lucky to get new content. I'm just happy to play again. My advice is to look at anything we get a bonus.

[Haijinx]

Seems like plenty of new stuff on Homecoming to me 

[Gulbasaur]

A lot of the changes aren't actually live yet on Rebirth or Thunderspy - they're still in development. Good work is still going on, but most of it isn't ready for public deployment. 

 

The new Guardian AT is live on the test server but not the main server. The majority of the new costume options are still in testing, although progressing quickly from what I gather. There's a good write-up here about some of the problems they've faced and the frustrations of being part of a very small dev team dealing with a decade of patches and spaghetti code plus later additions to the code and cross-compatibility between different versions of the codebase and the problems caused by getting the new additions to work together without breaking things like NPCs or the entire animation system.

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Seems like plenty of new stuff on Homecoming to me 

There has been some really amazing work done on extra costume pieces and some UI work, for example. Due to coding differences, it's easier for other server sets to share new content, whereas Homecoming may require extra work to port over. Obviously, it's not a case of easy-vs-impossible as some people make out, but HC is more different in coding from the other branches so there may be cases where community content would have to be patched more extensively to be integrated.

 

It's all really early in development so I think we're three months at least off things really being released as anything other than proof-of-concept stuff.

7 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Or perhaps, Homecoming is making sure new stuff they add is done correctly, not half assed hacks?

Honestly, the quality of some of it is really good. Not talking about the new powersets, but things like BobbleWrap's customisable mastermind pets, extra costume slots and a pretty vast expansion of the whole costume system - things people have been asking for and are in development and seemingly progressing healthily. I would really like it if Thunderspy's removal of level restrictions for contacts was ported over, for example - the Flashback system prevents people from being added to a mission on the fly and it disrupts the narrative of a zone having to bop in and out all the time.

 

Some kind of statement from the Homecoming team would be excellent about how they intend to work with or alongside the Ouro project to potentially integrate some of the newer content as it develops, but it's all so early in development I understand why nothing has been said.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Gulbasaur

[Williwaw]

8 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Or perhaps, Homecoming is making sure new stuff they add is done correctly, not half assed hacks?

This.

 

Homecoming has a lot of QoL improvements and a new class and new powersets and powerset proliferation and so on, but it still feels like essentially the same game, and when they make a major change they test it thoroughly (for several things, including bugs, balance, and community reaction).

 

Some of the I24 servers are just throwing every random idea at the wall to see what sticks.  (Like totally changing how Control sets work by swapping the pet with the single-target immob, and then turning the single-target immob into something else)

[DR_Mechano]

My main point of contention is the large number of currently NPC only costumes that already work just fine, don't cause clipping or animation issues, in the -n version of Titan Icon. Surely they wouldn't take too much work to flip off the switch form NPC/DEV only to PC availability.

Edited November 2, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Abraxus]

I believe I've stated my feelings on the Fourchan/Thunderspy/CoxG server, but I'll restate briefly.

 

I remain a member of their Discord group, just to keep an ear to the ground about what goes on over there.  The blatant racist language, their consummate hatred of Homecoming, and it's Devs (not to mention their disparaging attitude for those who play here, like we are all ignorant doofs for doing so), plus their political "discussions".  This is all enough to ensure that, no matter what changes they make, I'll never play there.  There have been many who come to their defense by saying that what you see in their Discord is not typical of the behavior in-game.  To me, once you show who you really are, how you behave in more social settings doesn't alter the fact that you are just suppressing your real character for whatever reason.  On the rare instance where someone who just talks that way in their Discord because they are just going along with the vibe, it makes no difference.  You have acquiesced to that kind of language, and behavior by participating, so that defense falls flat for me.

 

The community matters.  The community over there is nothing I ever wish to associate with, and what their server offers will never get me to sacrifice my own principals by going there, no matter what shiny objects they dangle.  If folks don't want to be labeled that way in general because they aren't all like that, then they really need to think about how those one chooses to associate with, implies things about you that might not be how you see yourself, or wish others to perceive you as such.  Ultimately, being there is their choice, and more power to them.  What they say, and do over there is protected by the Constitution.  But, while that means it's legal, it doesn't make it right, and I will never be a part of it, outside of the vigilance of observing silently what happens there, and the lament that this kind of thing still exists in the 21st century.

 

Having said all that, I will also say that the innovation of the Homecoming team, and the pace of their updates, while not as sensational, have been more frequent than even the "live" days, and is much more responsive to issues as well.  If the NCSoft deal is successful, it might open the door to much more that might have posed legal issues before that point.  It's hard to know, but I truly believe that the best is still yet to come, and I'll be around to see it.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Abraxus

[Oubliette_Red]

I look at the flow of development like this:

 

The folks that volunteer their time working on CoH:H, cleaning up code, developing content, etc. do so because they love the game as much as we do. They do this despite having real jobs that take up who knows how much time. They don't get paid to do this, yet they do it anyway, the only monies they ask for are to keep the servers up and running, everything else comes out of their own pockets. This also includes the time they have spent putting the game into a place it needs to be with regards to dealing with NCsoft.

 

For something that we are getting for free, I don't see the pacing as an issue, especially since they are still performing maintenance updates.

[Doc_Scorpion]

14 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

It just feels like things are a touch slow when compared to both Rebirth/CoXG and I'm curious if, because CoXH is looking to become 'official' that they're currently being rather conservative and restricting to mostly power changes.

And...  what else would you expect them to be?

I mean, I wouldn't expect them to be as conservative as the folks who programmed the Space Shuttle...  But they're dealing with complex code (that's old spaghetti and poorly documented) and the leisure time of thousands of users.  If they screw something up, they've wasted the time and energy of a whole bunch of people.  (BTDT. That's a bigger psychological burden than many people realize.)  A bunch of people they depend on to pony up cash on last Saturday of the month to keep the bills paid and the light on.

Would implementing tons of new shiny things to attract the minority of magpies be beneficial?  Would the numbers go up if they did so?  Possibly.  But, at least for the moment, the numbers tell a different story.  The numbers make it unarguably clear that what the community at large values above all else is stability, predictability, and professionalism.

Conspiracy theories need not apply.

[Dark Current]

9 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Or perhaps, Homecoming is making sure new stuff they add is done correctly, not half assed hacks?

And you've played all their new stuff to base your conclusion on, correct?

[MTeague]

Honestly, even if the talks with NCSoft are slowing down new content.... taking that as a complete given for the sake of the argument.... I still want them to stay the course. 

 

I would rather they give as much of a try as can be given to be a legit operation, and thus buy protection from possible legal hammers, then have them flip birds at NCSoft and always live under the threat of a shutdown.  This isn't a game I want to play for a few months and be chomping at the bit for the next shiny thing. I could spend YEARS in city of heroes, EASY.  Hell, I did it on Live, and I'm looking to do it again here. 

 

Plus, I make bank as a software developer myself. I'm not in the gaming industry, but still. I'm a programmer.  I'm able to make a living because of copyrights on software.  I have some ethical quandries squaring that with playing a game that I know the HC team does not really have full rights to.  The siren song of remaking my characters was too strong to resist, but I would really like the legal issues resolved and agreements reached.

[Abraxus]

22 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Honestly, even if the talks with NCSoft are slowing down new content.... taking that as a complete given for the sake of the argument.... I still want them to stay the course. 

 

I would rather they give as much of a try as can be given to be a legit operation, and thus buy protection from possible legal hammers, then have them flip birds at NCSoft and always live under the threat of a shutdown.  This isn't a game I want to play for a few months and be chomping at the bit for the next shiny thing. I could spend YEARS in city of heroes, EASY.  Hell, I did it on Live, and I'm looking to do it again here. 

 

Plus, I make bank as a software developer myself. I'm not in the gaming industry, but still. I'm a programmer.  I'm able to make a living because of copyrights on software.  I have some ethical quandries squaring that with playing a game that I know the HC team does not really have full rights to.  The siren song of remaking my characters was too strong to resist, but I would really like the legal issues resolved and agreements reached.

Homecoming is the only site that I am aware of, that is making any effort towards alleviating the legal aspect of the game.  Yet another reason why I play here, and nowhere else. 😎

[EmmySky]

2 hours ago, Abraxus said:

I believe I've stated my feelings on the Fourchan/Thunderspy/CoxG server, but I'll restate briefly.

 

I remain a member of their Discord group, just to keep an ear to the ground about what goes on over there.  The blatant racist language, their consummate hatred of Homecoming, and it's Devs (not to mention their disparaging attitude for those who play here, like we are all ignorant doofs for doing so), plus their political "discussions".  This is all enough to ensure that, no matter what changes they make, I'll never play there.  There have been many who come to their defense by saying that what you see in their Discord is not typical of the behavior in-game.  To me, once you show who you really are, how you behave in more social settings doesn't alter the fact that you are just suppressing your real character for whatever reason.  On the rare instance where someone who just talks that way in their Discord because they are just going along with the vibe, it makes no difference.  You have acquiesced to that kind of language, and behavior by participating, so that defense falls flat for me.

 

The community matters.  The community over there is nothing I ever wish to associate with, and what their server offers will never get me to sacrifice my own principals by going there, no matter what shiny objects they dangle.  If folks don't want to be labeled that way in general because they aren't all like that, then they really need to think about how those one chooses to associate with, implies things about you that might not be how you see yourself, or wish others to perceive you as such.  Ultimately, being there is their choice, and more power to them.  What they say, and do over there is protected by the Constitution.  But, while that means it's legal, it doesn't make it right, and I will never be a part of it, outside of the vigilance of observing silently what happens there, and the lament that this kind of thing still exists in the 21st century.

 

Having said all that, I will also say that the innovation of the Homecoming team, and the pace of their updates, while not as sensational, have been more frequent than even the "live" days, and is much more responsive to issues as well.  If the NCSoft deal is successful, it might open the door to much more that might have posed legal issues before that point.  It's hard to know, but I truly believe that the best is still yet to come, and I'll be around to see it.

Now I regret killing you (repeatedly) in Comic Con.  😁

[Abraxus]

36 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Now I regret killing you (repeatedly) in Comic Con.  😁

It's ok.  I occasionally borrow a fire scrapper from my son to do a little farming, and I get some weird thrill out of killing me too.  I have 4 or 5 other characters of mine in there as well, and it's the same for all of them. 😆

But, on the subject at hand, in re-reading my post, it might come off as a little sanctimonious, but rest assured, I am not preaching to anyone NOT to play there.  Simply stating my reasons for feeling the way I do about the place, and why I would never compromise my own values to experience anything they have introduced over there, no matter how compelling, or entertaining they might sound.  I think that is representative of the spirit of this game as well.  At least on the blue side, which is where all of my characters reside, regardless of their archetype. 😎

Edited November 2, 2019 by Abraxus

[Haijinx]

I would also like to vote for not adding new stuff so fast that it outpaces play balance tweaks.

 

For example- a lot of the new Blaster Secondaries need some minor adjustments, particularly in the Melee Attack Recharge time vs Damage area.   Adding another Blaster Secondary now seems like it would be too soon.  

 

Well thought out changes are better than change for change's sake IMO. 

[Hyperstrike]

I'm all about stability and balance (YES, I say that running on a Windows machine.  I'm not immune to irony...)

[MetaVileTerror]

Whoops.  I think I posted in the wrong thread.  Well, this reply could work in either thread, I guess:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/12134-what-play-styles-should-the-dev-team-support-solo-teams-story-powerleveling-etc/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-122179

[Dahkness]

15 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Or perhaps, Homecoming is making sure new stuff they add is done correctly, not half assed hacks?

I don’t know... I’ve herd so much mad feed back from the new power pool power

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Hops said:

I don’t know... I’ve herd so much mad feed back from the new power pool power

exactly, untested, unbalanced and probably game breaking.   If Homecoming were to start doing stuff like that (which they wont because, well they are smarter than that) I and a lot of others would be outta here

[boggo2300]

6 hours ago, Dark Current said:

And you've played all their new stuff to base your conclusion on, correct?

enough of their new stuff to know they have no idea what they are doing yes

[boggo2300]

One major thing you are missing

 

HOMECOMING HAVE A NEW 64-BIT GAME CLIENT

 

you think thats as easy as making a new powerset by stripping powers and artwork from existing ones in game?

 

 

[Mnemnosyne]

6 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Would implementing tons of new shiny things to attract the minority of magpies be beneficial?  Would the numbers go up if they did so?  Possibly.  But, at least for the moment, the numbers tell a different story.  The numbers make it unarguably clear that what the community at large values above all else is stability, predictability, and professionalism.

I suspect the numbers have an even simpler answer: Homecoming was (and still is, I believe) the easiest server to find, once you hear that CoH/CoV is back. Most of the places I've heard about it wind up linking/instructing people how to get on Homecoming. Therefore, HC became the most popular server early on. Having reached this level of population, it would be extremely difficult to get a significant number of people to switch to one of the far less populated servers, so it's self-maintaining at this point; the HC team would have to colossally screw up in order for one of the other servers to reach the tipping point. It wouldn't be enough for one of the others to be slightly better (which I don't think they are at this point) it would have to be massively better by an absolutely huge margin.

 

I DO wish HC would focus more on costume stuff. That's definitely more important to me than more story arcs or even more powersets, but I definitely see them doing work, just not the same kind of work as the other servers.  Hell, they spent who knows how much (I'm sure a lot) of effort on the 64 bit client, and other backend stuff that's generally not visible but will make it more feasible to improve things. So yeah, I really wish I could get the costume stuff that I see appearing elsewhere NOW, but I'm at least hopeful they'll get around to it.