Make Transfusion and Transference affect allies around you

[Thezanman]

It is very annoying to try to heal teammates when your heal only applies around the enemy targeted, since they might be attacking from range, or run away when they get to low health. Twilight Grasp does the opposite, only healing teammates near you, and this is much easier to use. It is sometimes nice to be able to heal melee teammates from a distance, so I would say that Transfusion, Transference, and Twilight Grasp should all apply to teammates around both the targeted enemy and the caster.

[Lost Ninja]

It's a choice you need to make TBH, if you're playing a Kinetics character most of the powers work better in melee range. Transfusion is one of the best heals in the game the fact that it needs to hit IMO is a far worse downside than you needing to be in melee range of the mob you're healing off. Twilight Grasp (the other best one IMO) is also a great healing power that again requires an accuracy check to work. Perhaps we ought to make them like empathy/pain heals and not require any check on hit. Maybe just make them PBAoE...

 

If all the sets were functionally the same there would be no reason to pick one over the other. You need to learn to work within the limitations of the power rather than wanting it to be changed to make it work in your specific situation. Part of that is educating teammates to be where the heals are, part of that is positioning yourself the same way.

[Burnt Toast]

Absolutely not. So tired of these suggestions that drastically change the core function of powers to "equalize" things... there is a reason they have higher heals than empathy or pain. There is a logical reason why they behave the way they do. Thankfully NEITHER of these will ever make it to an actual discussion amongst devs. Make suggestions... but please have the decency to stop asking for changes that change the core mechanics of powers and gameplay. 

[Dragon Crush]

1 minute ago, Burnt Toast said:

but please have the decency to stop asking for changes that change the core mechanics of powers and gameplay.

So no asking to make ninja pets even marginally durable?

 

As for original suggestion, my kin on homecoming is pretty low but got him to decent level on live, and don't really see the need for this, if team is unaware just remind them where the heals are.

[MetaVileTerror]

As a player who has a main Hero which is Kinetics since 2004, I'll say this:  Getting in to the thick of things to benefit from Kinetics' gameplay mechanics has been insanely rewarding and engaging compared to almost all the other characters I've played.  Kinetics isn't a "backline" Support Set; it's a dynamic one, which can be truly effective when used by someone willing to be a team leader.  Calling out when and where your Powers will come in to effect is MASSIVE, and Kinetics really reaches its apex when you're able to effectively communicate with your team.  

 

I'm all-for leaving Transfusion and Transference unchanged.  Thank you.

[Thezanman]

It is not fun, unique gameplay to have to explain to your teammates to do something completely counter-intuitive every time you get on a new team. Hey guys, everyone stand in melee range where it’s more dangerous instead of making use of your ranged powers because I’m useless otherwise.
 

And it is a massive overstatement to say that the powers would be too similar. You would have twilight grasp and transfusion acting the same way, still having a different secondary effect. That’s two powers which do roughly the same thing in the entire game. Compare that to the amount of sets which have a generic single target heal, or pbaoe heal. Then compare that to all of the tier 1 powers in the game which are just “shoot an enemy for low damage on a low cooldown”.

 

I understand that these powers have more healing because of their downsides, but again it’s not like I’m asking to remove all the downsides. Twilight Grasp is already basically transfusion without any of the downsides besides a small chance to miss, since you can actually control where the heal is. If that’s your concern, you should be asking for twilight grasp to have its healing cut by 50% or other pbaoe heals to be doubled since it is strictly better than anything else in the game.

[Thezanman]

8 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Absolutely not. So tired of these suggestions that drastically change the core function of powers to "equalize" things... there is a reason they have higher heals than empathy or pain. There is a logical reason why they behave the way they do. Thankfully NEITHER of these will ever make it to an actual discussion amongst devs. Make suggestions... but please have the decency to stop asking for changes that change the core mechanics of powers and gameplay. 

Thankfully the devs don’t care about players who think nothing should ever be changed.

[SeraphimKensai]

Well as a moderately experienced player having leveled up over 300 lvl 50 characters over the years (surprisingly I just got my first lvl 50 mm as I never got into the AT before but that's just an aside), I can offer my opinion primarily as someone who mained an Empath for years, and like all opinions, everyone has one.

 

In my experience the only players to have issue with kinetics or dark miasma's style of healing have been new players who don't understand the mechanics of how the various powers work, they seem more akin to seeing green numbers over their heads via empathy. This is corrected with experience. Eventually people learn what their character can and can't handle, they learn when is an appropriate time to come in for a buff or when to play on the wings or another floor sometimes.

 

People playing their characters are ultimately responsible for their own actions. I don't try to go out on a limb and jeopardize the rest of the team for the sake of the individual. With that in mind it's important for people to learn how support sets function even if they choose not to play them.

 

Kinetics was built from the ground up by design to be the ultimate support for melee characters. Dark Miasma on the other hand was designed as a ranged support (the reason it also has a to hit debuff component as most ranged characters typically didn't have any defense, this is before IO's and even epic powersets). Ranged characters especially Blasters with high damage caps benefit tremendously from melee centric buffs like fulcrum shift as they typically also have PBAoE attacks to quickly decimate any opposition.

 

That all said, and I know it's a lot, is that my opinion is that kinetics doesn't need to be changed (unless of course they want to let speed boost/increased density work on the caster too).

[Thezanman]

11 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Kinetics was built from the ground up by design to be the ultimate support for melee characters.

Then why do Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift affect allies around you?

[Solarverse]

Kin heals are one of the best burst heals in game, and it was designed to be support for the Tank and Melee, not the people at ranged. The reason why the heal hits for such high numbers and can almost bring people back to full health from the brink of death is because it is ranged and target based. If it was AoE, it would be no different from the Dark Heal, which also hits for high numbers. However, the Dark Heal aslo requires a target to pull from, which is why it also hits for high numbers. One is a targeted ranged Heal, the other is a targeted PBAoE heal. I feel like if a player wants to heal PBAoE, they already have that option with the Dark set. I personally see no reason to change Kinetics at all.

P.S. If you are having issues getting a self heal or endurance buff from your own powers because of a particular shield you can get, try slotting a KB to KD IO in it and that problem goes away. Worked wonders for me.

[ninja surprise]

3 hours ago, Thezanman said:

It is not fun, unique gameplay to have to explain to your teammates to do something completely counter-intuitive every time you get on a new team. Hey guys, everyone stand in melee range where it’s more dangerous instead of making use of your ranged powers because I’m useless otherwise.

It's easy to do something like this:

/bind p "say For heals stand near my (or the tank's) target"

Push P when you're on a new team and call it good.

I'm sorry you feel useless if you can't heal a faraway teammate with Transfusion. Have you considered taking other powers to help the team out?

Personally, I realize that as a hero with Kinetic powers I am not the team healer, I am a controller or corrupter with attacks and buffs and also a melee heal. Everyone on the team can get a self-heal or inspiration drops and I am not responsible for keeping them alive. Heck sometimes I take Vengeance so I can profit off their defeat!

 

2 hours ago, Thezanman said:

Then why do Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift affect allies around you?

Because those are different powers. Siphon Power only affects allies near you while Fulcrum Shift puts half at the target and half around you. So you'd have to stand near the target to get the full buff.

[Lost Ninja]

5 hours ago, Thezanman said:

Then why do Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift affect allies around you?

So that they're still worthwhile when you're using Fulcrum Shift. In end game most players won't really care about Transference (providing you do use Speed Boost), and if a player gets to end game and doesn't know how the healing in the game works to be honest that's on them. But pretty much all players who want to do lots of damage will still like Fulcrum Shift and due to the way it works you and they get the best benefit if used in melee range of the target.

 

2 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

I realize that as a hero with Kinetic powers I am not the team healer, I am a controller or corrupter with attacks and buffs and also a melee heal. Everyone on the team can get a self-heal or inspiration drops and I am not responsible for keeping them alive. Heck sometimes I take Vengeance so I can profit off their defeat!

As a kin (and apart from MM I have played all of them) I'd say I'm a buffer/debuffer with a heal. I use the heal to keep me alive because I'm also damned squishy. In very low level teams I might explain to someone who dies a lot where the heals are going to land, but since i3 I don't think I've come across anyone like that (don't exclusively play Kins mind). I did have a Bots/Dark MM and the heal is far more appropriate for healing the other ranged characters... though TBH I always toe bomb normally anyway, so even if I have no good reason to be in melee range I will be... 😄

[MetaVileTerror]

Honestly, if you're not pumping out Transfusions every time its off cooldown, I don't think you're Kineticsing to your full potential.  Tranfusion is wonderful!  "Just" be sure to be on your toes about who/what you're targeting, and its position relative to yourself and your teammates/pets.

[Burnt Toast]

On 11/8/2019 at 7:51 AM, Thezanman said:

Thankfully the devs don’t care about players who think nothing should ever be changed.

LOL if you think for one second they are or will ever consider these changes you are delusional...

Here's an idea - Find someone who can change the code...have them do that for you - then run your own server - because this will never happen on Homecoming. 

 

[Outrider_01]

"Devs" have  a budget of $75 dollars for next month until next donation collection.. This from a donation pooland it is the leftover of $9800 dollars from 341 people, ONLY 341 people.  Half which is to pay lawyers, while the other half is to run the server...FOR 1 MONTH ONLY, seem it costs almost $5000 a month; if you haven't figured it out the game is not run for much proft unlike NSOFT/Cryptic before servers shut down.  This means the "Devs" are pretty much doing it as a hobby and nostalgia; I could be wrong though.  In my opinion they are not the developers, just the caretaker of an old game even if they can code it now.

 

This doesn't entitle you to think you are correct, as the Internet lets everyone basically debate the issue in a way.  Would it be nice if the changes happen?  Frankly, it would...at the same time it is a copout and a crutch to make it easier.

 

The problem isn't the set, its between the keyboard and chair.  It isn't an insult, you just don't know how to use the set effectively to great effect and how much of a power house it can be.  Your team mates are noobs of -9000! power level (meme is getting old sadly, new generation don't it) if they are complaining.

 

Kinetics is primarily a buff set, it not a healer set.  It isn't a debuff either, regardless of the minute amout it debuffs.  Its too make your team stronger and best as a primary buff while being a secondary heal.  Works better with 2 AoE that isn't a stupid aura click, thats just a small buffer heal.

 

You have to be dynamic and place your self where your needed.  Your squishy should not be behind the tank unless they are a balls to the wall Blapper blaster, its on the squishy if they over aggro.  Everything should be locked down, melee mopping up the tougher stuff.  If it is all FUBAR, it was just not meant to be and it was more difficult then you though.

 

You are not a healer, Dark is not a healer.  One is pure buff, other is pure debuff.  Heal is just extra, one you put down the buff/debuff you spam heal and what ever your second ability is (not mean set, just what your capable of from all your powers).

 

I played a 50 fire/kin controller, ice/kin corrupter, kin/ice defender, and maybe a mid level fire blast kin defender or corrupter but I forget; last played at least 5-6 years before shut down.  I learned how to get better, how to apply it, save teammates asses, and if it failed it was on them OR just one of those FUBAR moments.  But I never asked to make it easier, cause the set is far easier to use now to changes let alone how easy to level.  I just roll with what I got, 49/50 AR/Dev from shortly after release that did not have the 4-5 changes in Device it has now except the bonus damage on targeting drone; was such a painful slog after Issue 4 and other nerfs that when he filled 49 to 50 I just left him there at 49^ arrow up with 50 SO slotted in silent tribute/protest and now Device is so much easier.  Don't even get me started with Defiance 1.0 Reaper Salad tossing based on hitpoints to damage buff that does not work on a glass cannon, blasters are already fragile  chipped/broken glass ware to begin with

 

TL;DR - Improve your self, educate others, and learn the dynamics of Kinetics. You will only get better through the struggle and understanding it.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Outrider_01

[GM Sijin]

Let's not assume we know the minds, capabilities or knowledge of others, including one another and those responsible for updates to Homecoming. Argue the merits of the idea, not the traits of others.

 

My thoughts on the idea as raised are a little lengthy (sorrynotsorry). TL;DR? I'm not a fan of changing a less straightforward set instead of educating players on how to make it work well for them.

 

I'm against the change. You cite that Twilight Grasp is better because you can position it yourself. I say that's a mixed blessing when the cast time and time to heal from cast start are drastically higher than Transfusion's (by measure of how quickly things happen in combat). By the time you move to your target (assuming they aren't also moving) and your heal goes off players could have been defeated. Transfusion is, by the numbers, the best aura heal in the game. Sure, it can be a challenge to use in some situations but that's a major part of the reason why it's such a powerful heal. But if your team won't work with you to help you help them that's on them, not you or the powerset. Also making transfusion and twilight grasp behave the same does not make them equal without also adjusting (nerfing) Transfusion's superior time to heal.

 

Kinetics is my favorite support set, and has been since I discovered it late in 2004. It continues to be even after they add new support sets. I understand the frustrations of trying to deal with people who don't understand how the set works, or don't consider just how effective transfusion is as a heal and don't enable you to use it for their benefit. I understand how frustrating it is to have both heals off cooldown and see someone rez with an awaken, then run away instead of to an enemy so you can pop their health and endurance straight back (near) to 100%. I understand the frustration of a blaster standing what looks like exactly one pixel outside of the radius of your transfusion at 20% health constantly. This is why the casual build on my Kinetics D has the medicine pool. Because there are players who don't know to, or simply won't play to your strengths even after you've explained it. I'm okay with that. I still prefer the challenge of using the set. I understand the inherent risks of being in melee are a balancing act against the power of the set. Blaster doesn't want to risk getting in the fray? No FS pegging their damage to the cap for them. No effectively infinite endurance (though that's a lot easier to do self-buffed these days with sets & incarnates).

 

You want the heals to affect both areas? Okay, but it would probably end up looking something like:

25% of the healing around the player, 75% of the healing around the target. Reversed for Grasp.

This means you're healing less effectively any time the targets aren't in the stacked effect of the auras. In practice this would probably prove to be an effective nerf to both powers. I say it would be this way because the auras would probably have to be separate entities and could potentially both heal the same target without new code to prevent it from happening. Having two heals at that potency double-dip would be excessively strong. Having two aura areas doing the same amount of healing even without double dipping is probably also not something that they'd consider balanced either, so you're looking at some other kind of (potentially) negative trade-off for what you're suggesting either way.

 

I'm really not a fan of this for a lot of reasons, most of which being that I don't want BOTH target positions to have to matter for the healing when I'm playing my Kinetics. I love having to make sure I'm targeting the right thing and it's in the right place to land my heal. That's an incredibly engaging part of the set for me, despite the occasional frustrations it can bring about. It helps Kinetics stand apart from other sets all the more. I also don't want to legitimize people not understanding way the the sets play causing changes to the sets. I don't want to homogenize support sets. I don't want the theme of those Kinetics powers to be diluted.

 

Not every set is going to be fun for every player. That isn't a problem. It doesn't automatically mean the set needs to change to accommodate the playstyle of the player, and not just because this is impossible to actually apply to any large group of players. But because the sets should be different. There should be as vastly a different feel between sets as is possible while keeping the sets effective. This leaves room for the widest array of playstyles to find something they enjoy, and those who have less narrow preferences benefit from a wider variety of gameplay to delve into. 

 

A set that is more difficult to use does not necessarily mean it's less effective, especially when those sets are generally designed to be more potentially effective than simpler sets. In practice due to player behavior it may seem less effective, but when your team knows how to play into the strengths of Kinetics? It shines incredibly brightly. Hence its popularity despite these challenges.

[boggo2300]

Sn

58 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

Let's not assume we know the minds, capabilities or knowledge of others, including one another and those responsible for updates to Homecoming. Argue the merits of the idea, not the traits of others.

 

My thoughts on the idea as raised are a little lengthy (sorrynotsorry). TL;DR? I'm not a fan of changing a less straightforward set instead of educating players on how to make it work well for them.

 

                                                                                                                                 <snip>

 

OK, you seem to have spent WAY to much time playing a kin 😄

[GM Sijin]

14 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

OK, you seem to have spent WAY to much time playing a kin 😄

Never enough!

[MetaVileTerror]

Correct:  

Never.  Enough.  Kinetics!

[Lost Ninja]

Spent more time playing Kinetics than any other set, and I still love it. All of it, even Repel. 😄

[MTeague]

11 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Spent more time playing Kinetics than any other set, and I still love it. All of it, even Repel. 😄

Repel could make an awesome "Freight Train!  Coming Thru!!!!" plowing through big groups of mobs. 

 

Back on Live....I and another player... I think a Defender?   Were abandoned in the middle of Perez Park, the covered area, back when that was a thing and groups went there.  There was a mostly-wipe, we had wakie'd.  Half the team went to the hospital and quit team, one other survivor suicided, went to hospital, and quit team.  We didn't wanna die.  XP debt and all. (early game, we cared about such things lol).  So I said, okay, let's do this.  Told him to get sprint going, and fly for the sky as soon as we got to open terrain. I activated Repel, chewed my last Luck insp, and just barreled through like 5-6 different spawns of CoT at a dead run as we ran through the forest.  "Bowling for Mages" style. 

 

I still have Repel on my main to this day because of that.  It's also sometimes handy to bounce a confused mob closer to the mobs I want the confused mob to fight.  

Edited November 11, 2019 by MTeague

[Lost Ninja]

I managed to lodge Frostfire's head into a wall back when Frostfire was a right of passage, made him really easy to defeat. 😄

 

It's also great for unsticking mobs that get stuck in walls on the large (Tunnels of the Trolls style) Cave maps.

[oedipus_tex]

The melee-centric nature of Kinetics is intrinsic to the design of the set. I would not want to see this changed because it would play too much like Dark Miasma. Difference strategies for different sets.

 

I personally think the melee-healing nature of Kinetics is one of the coolest things I've seen in a MMO. It's an example of excellent game design in my opinion that we have some many different types of support and different strategies that need to be deployed.

Edited November 27, 2019 by oedipus_tex