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New MM Primaries? What are your Ideas?

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13 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I just need the ability to change the size of minions. Please give me tiny bots. Oh it would be absolutely hilarious please give me a 2 foot tall assault bot. 

Now I want a 2 foot tall Assault Bot that looks like a CL4P-TP unit that's screaming at Jack he's totally going to teabag him.

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On 12/3/2019 at 12:52 PM, biostem said:

They could start in jeans and perhaps matching t-shirts, then get upgraded to matching uniforms, then finally uniforms + masks + themed gloves/boots/maybe capes.

My thoughts exactly!!!!! ❤️

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I wouldn't want replicas of existing enemy groups as pets. They'd have to be significantly nerfed from the real ones. Which would stick out like a sore thumb any time you fought the real ones. I know asking this group to make whole new models for a new pet set is a bit much though. *shrug*

Edited by Tubalcain

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I actually really like the idea of just turning existing NPC groups into MM pets. They already kinda work in the same way. 3 minions, 2 lieutenants, 1 boss. So you just pick the NPC group and T1 would summon three random minions from that group, T2, summons 2 random lieutenants, and T3 summons a random boss. Any time you zone with the pets active you could have different random pets.

 

Or maybe just select ones from the group who would always be the ones you summon. Maybe the upgrades could turn them into different NPCs from the same group like you could have one that starts as a fire mage and fully upgraded becomes a Behemoth Overlord.

 

I also think there should actually be a PPD skin for Thugs. The other pets I think could work either way but heroic Thugs never felt right to me so I think they should turn into cops whenever you switch sides.

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6 hours ago, RialVestro said:

I actually really like the idea of just turning existing NPC groups into MM pets. They already kinda work in the same way. 3 minions, 2 lieutenants, 1 boss. So you just pick the NPC group and T1 would summon three random minions from that group, T2, summons 2 random lieutenants, and T3 summons a random boss. Any time you zone with the pets active you could have different random pets.

 

Or maybe just select ones from the group who would always be the ones you summon. Maybe the upgrades could turn them into different NPCs from the same group like you could have one that starts as a fire mage and fully upgraded becomes a Behemoth Overlord.

 

I also think there should actually be a PPD skin for Thugs. The other pets I think could work either way but heroic Thugs never felt right to me so I think they should turn into cops whenever you switch sides.

Heroic Thugs, conceptually, could work in a scenario where the police themselves were the bad guys, or where the police were good guys but so overwhelmed they just couldn't handle crime in an area. And then you have a gang forming together saying "Ok, the police can't / won't protect you, so WE WILL.", dealing out Street Justice on an as-needed basis.  In the real world of course, any group that started out with such motives would probably become drunk on power and the notion of being answerable to no-one, and then becoming the very danger they tried to protect against. Human nature is a pain like that.

 

But... really.... in a city with 10,000+ superheroes and paramilitary groups like Longbow... it's a HECK of a lot harder to justify such a group forming.

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5 hours ago, MTeague said:

Heroic Thugs, conceptually, could work in a scenario where the police themselves were the bad guys, or where the police were good guys but so overwhelmed they just couldn't handle crime in an area. And then you have a gang forming together saying "Ok, the police can't / won't protect you, so WE WILL.", dealing out Street Justice on an as-needed basis.  In the real world of course, any group that started out with such motives would probably become drunk on power and the notion of being answerable to no-one, and then becoming the very danger they tried to protect against. Human nature is a pain like that.

 

But... really.... in a city with 10,000+ superheroes and paramilitary groups like Longbow... it's a HECK of a lot harder to justify such a group forming.

The thing is Thugs by definition are ALWAYS criminals. What you're describing are Vigilantes not Thugs. And considering we actually have a Vigilante alignment like that it could work for that specific alignment. As far as the police are concerned there's not really a difference between Vigilantes and Thugs even though one is trying to do good but is working outside the law to accomplish that. If the police are going to conflate the two as one thing anyway then it kinda makes sense for a team of Vigilantes to dress up like the very criminals they're trying to stop.

 

But a true Hero alignment Thug MM makes no sense.

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6 hours ago, RialVestro said:

The thing is Thugs by definition are ALWAYS criminals. What you're describing are Vigilantes not Thugs. And considering we actually have a Vigilante alignment like that it could work for that specific alignment. As far as the police are concerned there's not really a difference between Vigilantes and Thugs even though one is trying to do good but is working outside the law to accomplish that. If the police are going to conflate the two as one thing anyway then it kinda makes sense for a team of Vigilantes to dress up like the very criminals they're trying to stop.

 

But a true Hero alignment Thug MM makes no sense.

Sure it does you just have to imagine it as like those biker gangs that show up to support molestation victims in court

 

Also I feel like your rules require heroes to be  lawful or neutral good only and as a chaotic good alignment in real life I take offense. 

Edited by TheSpiritFox

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1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Sure it does you just have to imagine it as like those biker gangs that show up to support molestation victims in court

 

Also I feel like your rules require heroes to be  lawful or neutral good only and as a chaotic good alignment in real life I take offense. 

My rules? I didn't design the game's alignment system.

 

I think a heroic Thug MM could work better if there were only three alignments. Hero, Villain, and Neutral. Instead we have Vigilante and Rogue as Neutral alignments which itself doesn't really make sense because Vigilantes are Heroes.

 

As you pointed out with the Lawful Good, Neutral Good, and Chaotic Good... all three of those things are technically still Heroic alignments but the way the alignment system in game is set up Heroes can only ever be Lawful Good because Vigilantes which is Chaotic Good is a separate alignment. There is no true Neutral in game with only four alignments so all of the Neutral variations have to fit into Vigilante or Rogue some how as those are the closest we have to a Neutral alignment.

 

Having three alignments allows for a lot more freedom to do whatever you want within those alignments. I'm not a big fan of the 9 alignment system because it's a lot more limited and I often see characters shoved into various alignments and then other people argue how that's wrong for one reason or other because most characters don't even fit neatly into such strict alignment boxes. With the four we have in game it's even more confusing... like why even have a fourth one when Vigilantees and Rogues are essentially the same thing. It's just a neutral alignment that sits between Hero and Villain.

 

You don't even pass all four in a straight line meaning Hero <-> Vigilante <-> Rogue <-> Villain. It loops in a circle meaning Hero -> Vigilante -> Villain -> Rogue -> Hero -> ect.

 

There's also the fact that in some instances the game doesn't even recognize you as a different alignment. Like Vigilantes still register as Heroes and Rogues still register as Villains even though they're in co-op zones and can easily run off to either side a Villain can't invite a Vigilante until they actually zone into the Rogue Isles. Having them both just be Neutral would fix a lot of problems like that.

 

And most importantly to the original topic that started this discussion... Thugs would suddenly make more sense as a heroic pet option if Vigilantes weren't a separate alignment from other heroes. The only reason Thugs don't make sense for heroes is because of our current alignment system. I feel like they have to PPD if you go full hero with them. Like the only way I can justify heroic Thugs is by imagining they're undercover PPD officers. 

 

Something else I question while we're talking about it... The I.D. cards... In the games lore Hero I.D. cards is how you legally register as a hero in the city. Every hero who works legally within the law has one of these I.D. cards. Originally this was the way they justified the games character registration so that it had an in story reason to exist other than just being a game mechanic. Villains also have something similar essentially everyone is a registered member of Arachnos… which is weird considering that whole chosen one arc thing never really seems to go anywhere and is also one of the reasons they don't feel like villains but whatever. Praetorians have a Powers Division registration. The only thing I don't get... if Vigilantes are working outside the law... why do they still have Paragon Hero I.D. cards? Shouldn't their legal status as a hero be revoked or something? Same thing with villains going Rogue, still villains but no longer Arachnos aligned villains... so why still have an Arachnos I.D. card?

 

There's also no process for registration once you switch all the way to the other side. Or for that matter... once you travel to Primal Earth you don't have to register with Paragon City or the Rogue Isles, you just continue the game with your original I.D. cards... it's kinda like even the developers gave up on trying to make the I.D. cards make sense in universe. Personally I wouldn't of even thought about if they made sense in universe or not and just viewed them as a game mechanic that didn't need to exist in universe if the developers hadn't made them an in universe thing.

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16 hours ago, RialVestro said:

if Vigilantes are working outside the law... why do they still have Paragon Hero I.D. cards? Shouldn't their legal status as a hero be revoked or something?

Well, Vigilante vs Hero is more a matter of the kind of solutions that the character uses when confronted with situations. Heck, there are some similar choices in Praetoria, do you Kill or Arrest the bad guy you just defeated? There is no indication that there is an in-game difference... if you have a Hero ID, you're a Hero even if your problem solving style is more to shoot them all and let the morgue sort them out, than "drag the unconscious bad guys out of the burning building".

 

Also: " The thing is Thugs by definition are ALWAYS criminals. "... Leaving the names aside, the mobs summoned could easily fit into many anti-hero groups in stories. Consider the Dirty Dozen, consider The Expendables, and many other movies featuring guys from the wrong side of the law fighting for truth, justice, and The American Way (tm) 😉

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I see people talk about proliferating Illusion to Dominators, but I always thought it'd work pretty great as an MM primary.  The set would do a little higher damage than normal, and all the pets would have at least one attack with a chance to Confuse mixed in, balanced by being Psi damage, and partial "illusion" damage that healed back.

 

t1: Spectral Wounds - Low damage attack. More or less same as the controller version.

t2: Phantom Army - They'd have to be changed to take damage.  Like the original decoys, they might use random animations but be functionally the same.  Mostly melee with a default ranged attack for just in case (a la Ninjas)

t3: Blind - Mid damage attack.  Swap the Hold to a Sleep or a Stun, lest it be a little too strong, though, I suspect.

t4: Typical first upgrade

t5: Flash - PBAoE, like with Blind, change the Hold to a Sleep or Stun, add a small amount of damage to give it parity with other MM sets.

t6: Phantasm - For bit of a "special" mechanic here, the second Phantasm would still be an invincible decoy, but its "life" would be tied to the first Phantasm.  Ranged focus.

t7: Group Invisibility - Long duration click power that Hides and grants defense to the MM and all pets.  Pets attacking from Hidden status would do no extra damage, but their first hits would be able to apply a low magnitude Confuse.

t8: Spectral Terror - Same general look, but is mobile and can fly around now, and has both damage and controlling powers.  Ranged focus.

t9: Typical second upgrade

Edited by Lazarillo
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22 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I see people talk about proliferating Illusion to Dominators, but I always thought it'd work pretty great as an MM primary.  The set would do a little higher damage than normal, and all the pets would have at least one attack with a chance to Confuse mixed in, balanced by being Psi damage, and partial "illusion" damage that healed back.

 

t1: Spectral Wounds - Low damage attack. More or less same as the controller version.

t2: Phantom Army - They'd have to be changed to take damage.  Like the original decoys, they might use random animations but be functionally the same.  Mostly melee with a default ranged attack for just in case (a la Ninjas)

t3: Blind - Mid damage attack.  Swap the Hold to a Sleep or a Stun, lest it be a little too strong, though, I suspect.

t4: Typical first upgrade

t5: Flash - PBAoE, like with Blind, change the Hold to a Sleep or Stun, add a small amount of damage to give it parity with other MM sets.

t6: Phantasm - For bit of a "special" mechanic here, the second Phantasm would still be an invincible decoy, but its "life" would be tied to the first Phantasm.  Ranged focus.

t7: Group Invisibility - Long duration click power that Hides and grants defense to the MM and all pets.  Pets attacking from Hidden status would do no extra damage, but their first hits would be able to apply a low magnitude Confuse.

t8: Spectral Terror - Same general look, but is mobile and can fly around now, and has both damage and controlling powers.  Ranged focus.

t9: Typical second upgrade

I kind of agree except instead of Group Invisibility I'd have a special MM version of Deceive.

 

The effected enemy would essentially become a temporary pet able to respond to MM commands. The duration would be about the same as Soul Extraction, Gang War, or Hell on Earth. Also unlike normal Deceive the effected enemy can't be attacked by you, your other pets, or your team mates until the effect wears off. They will take your heals.

 

The down side of this improved Deceive for MMs... Longer recharge duration so you can't confuse multiple enemies at once like you can with other confuse powers and when the power wears off they will always directly attack the MM ignoring the pets. Since they can't be attack and can take your heals you potentially risk helping your enemy to kill you more easily unless they're killed by other NPCs before the effect wears off.

 

I was also thinking to be more specific with what the upgrades actually DO... The first Upgrade would give your pets Superior Invisibility while the second would give them Group Invisibility. The way this works in terms of the pets is the first one increases their defense by making them invisible while the second gives them the ability to cast invisibility on you and your team mates. This would only work when you're near them so that Tankers and such can avoid being effected by the team Stealth.

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