Supergroup prestige turned back on

[sykoholic001]

I can see both sides of the issue.

 

Side 1: Bases were expensive and required a large number of people to be in the SG in order for the group to afford them. A small SG with only a handful of people wasn't able to accomplish much. For people like myself, who make SGs of their Alts and thus could only have one SG member earning Prestige at any given time, it was a losing battle. The "convert Influence to Prestige" option helped but really only if you had a lvl 50 who got Influence instead of XP. For small groups or solo players, getting/having a decent Base was a real struggle.

 

Side 2: Without some sort of expense, there is no sense of accomplishment. There is nothing to make a SG member feel like they are contributing to the group as a whole because everything is free. Teleporter Beacons used to require a member to collect all of a zone's Exploration Badges while in SG mode. To get certain medical items required SG members to heal so many points worth of damage. Certain defense items required a SG member to have acquired certain recipes or salvage. The same for certain power/control auxillary items. No longer. Everything is free. Other than chucking the random bit of junk in the Salvage Rack, there is nothing for members to do to contribute. There is no sense of satisfaction or accomplishment as they watch the base grow and improve. There is no sense of pride or achievement from knowing they helped make that happen... because they didn't. There is nothing to work towards and earn. It's all free. The only person who gets any pride out of the SG base is the member who built it.

 

At this point, the issue really isn't an "issue". It's more a matter of perspective and a difference in play styles. However, if the game is back to stay (hopefully), a middle ground really needs to be found.

 

Leandro

Yesterday at 11:57 PM <on Discord>

fyi, I have received requests to reintroduce Prestige just as a thing for Supergroups to earn so the SG leaderboard works with the "Top 100" supergroups again. I have some ideas, but it won't be something farmable and it definetely will not reintroduce rent or any cost to bases. Bases stay free as long as I have any say on it

 

...or not *shrug*

[capsmackdown]

I enjoy the free superbase aspects as i was never able to get a decent number of high level members. However I also miss that sense of accomplishment every time a milestone was passed. Perhaps a vendor from the NPC tab for placing in the base that sales unique things would satisfy both. Not pay to win things, maybe just special furnishings, enhancements sets... I don't know but with the creative pool we have access to, I'm sure there would be plenty of ideas to work with. Just a possibility.

[ssutcliffe]

Supergroups are about getting people together and teaming. The old system was absolutely awful for anyone who wanted anything more then just a minimal base.  Earning prestige was also poorly designed because of the enormous penalty on influence gained.  For new low level toons, it was a complete deal breaker without a 50 who could give out money.

 

There were actually guides out there for how to build the absolute smallest base you could that would still have the teleports because of the upkeep costs.  That such guides actually existed showed there was a significant problem with the old system. 

 

I am a fan of task force running. I also like doing the Trials.  I am NOT a fan of forced grinding by the entire supergroup to maintain a base or lose it.  Grinding is not fun ever in my book.  I've been seriously considering starting a SG just to build a base from scratch.  When I get it the way I want it (as a starter base), then I can recruit members - which might want to stay because hopefully I'd have an interesting base.  No starting SG ever had a base before because you had to have lots of prestige to even start - which made getting people to join a starting group harder because base teleports and racks are something people want from a supergroup.

 

Personally I am very happy that they took out the Prestige system entirely. It lets newcomers to base building try things. and figure out how the system works - what works, and what doesn't.  It also lets those with an artistic bent run wild and make absolutely amazing creations., which would not be the case with old prestige system.  Some of the bases out there now would make great maps for missions. Anyone willing to take the time and effort to try to make an imaginative base deserves the chance to do it without grinding. on top of it

 

Base editing can take many many hours. Days or weeks actually, to do a decent job.  Taking out the prestige system lets everyone who wants to, to try making a base.  It's also nice already having at least a starter base when trying to get people to join a group.  With the old system, you couldn't even begin to build a base without a large group already, that was actually active.  And any base had to pay costs to maintain, which meant many tried to make them as small as possible to avoid grinding - which completely negated doing most things that were extra.  

 

I'd like to see the tabs on the base editor for the parts categories get replaced with a list instead so that you could scroll with the mouse instead of clicking arrows.  It would make things much easier to navigate and find. You can use the search to find specific parts, but unless you know the name, that isn't great  - especially if you want to look at a whole category and see what's available. 

 

 

[Greycat]

And WHY did you feel the need to post in a thread that hadn't been posted in for nearly a year?

[Oubliette_Red]

10 hours ago, Greycat said:

And WHY did you feel the need to post in a thread that hadn't been posted in for nearly a year?

The HC devs don't seem so fastidious about necro'ing threads.

 

I find multiple threads discussing the exact same thing more annoying than raising from the dust an old discussion. <shrug>

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Oubliette_Red

[ArchVileTerror]

I'm with Red.  It's not like a topic of discussion has any moratorium on it other than if a GM expressly states so, puts a lock on it, or hides it away.

'cliffe brings up a point which I hadn't seen in previous discussions either, which adds a nice bit of further context to the whole social aspect of Prestige and Base Building:  Guides apparently existed to min-max Base Prestige Upkeep against Function.  While I don't think we all need to necessarily come to the same conclusion as 'cliffe (even though I do, personally), it is a nice infusion of life with a bit of pertinent topic expansion.

 

The argument between Sunk Cost Fallacy versus a Sense of Pride and Accomplishment is one which we've seen getting a lot of attention in the broader games media dialogues lately.  While I know I do my best to express how I personally fall squarely on the side of being ostensibly against time sinks, my objections are more due to those taking away a player's -choice- in the matter by gating content.  How we define something as nebulous as 'content' in a game, especially one as vast as City of Heroes, is challenging.  All the same . . .

Prestige, as far as I'm aware, served three primary purposes:  Reduce overall Inf (which I'm personally against, but more on that later in a more appropriate thread venue), provide a metric for competition (but Base Raids never did fully materialize, leaving that aspect vestigial), and to create a sense of imaginary investment in Bases beyond the actual time and effort as a means to extend player retention (a classic underhanded tactic to draw out subscription payments).  

It could be argued that Prestige was also meant to be an additional incentive to draw people in to fewer Groups, but I'm just going to pretend that's not the case under the assumption that the original Devs wouldn't do something so cruel and thoughtless.

 

As it stands, we see a lot of players citing a desire for "having things that mean 'something'" when this topic comes up (along with other, similar topics).  The haves-versus-have-nots concern gets raised during those discussions frequently, as does the explanation that many players do not want their creative freedom taken away or locked behind arbitrary barriers.  As creative freedom is easily argued as City of Heroes absolute strongest selling point, I do hope anyone working on the Development of this game (here or anywhere else) continues to keep that in mind any time this comes up.

 

But, yeah . . . on the flipside, there are competitive people who play this game.  While I do not personally care for it, and it's therefore very difficult for me to empathize with those players' point of view, the express design philosophy of Homecoming is to make all the players feel welcome.

So . . . optional Prestige for some competitively minded players?  Ok, sure.  But I think that a heavy emphasis should be made to new and existing players that such would be -absolutely- optional.  I can already imagine the grief some players would feel at being turned in to crimps for some Group which tricks them in to farming Prestige.  And to maintain that it's optional, it should not have any unique in-game rewards associated with it.  Otherwise it's -not- any more optional than it is to say that it's "optional" to simply not play the game at all.  Don't be EA, folks.  EA is awful.

 

(*EA meaning the publisher, not Energy Aura nor Electrical Affinity.)

[Oubliette_Red]

If the Devs chould take the Prestige mechanic and make it build Prestige for the folks that feel it's important to be on a Leaderboard, while making bases still cost nothing, I have no issue with that.

 

I think it's a safe bet that the 'creative base-builder' types outnumber the 'must be on top' types and recalling the old days of Legacy grinding for prestige just to afford items to create and apartment, E.R. kitchen, bar, bedroom, garden, dungeon, containment room, etc along with the power and control to run everything, plus rent on top of that.

 

Yeah, firmly put me in the NO column for turning prestige back on for everyone.

 

[TraumaTrain]

13 hours ago, Greycat said:

And WHY did you feel the need to post in a thread that hadn't been posted in for nearly a year?

Because they wanted to.

[ShardWarrior]

On 5/12/2019 at 5:38 PM, lokiie1984 said:

It just feels like SGs now and having people in your SG has no value.

Having friends being in a group together has more value than prestige ever did or ever will.

[MsSmart]

Oh my.... Another I have a preference and want everybody to abide by "my" preference...

 

Base making at least in Everlasting is becoming a game of its own, and lots of folks with exceptional artistic abilities are truly showing us what is in the realm of possible as incredible as those bases are. I do not see any advantage at making this enjoyable pass time for quite a number of players have a cost or handicap penalty to it, that is just not right.

 

For myself I love touring those incredible works of art

 

Sue

 

 

[srmalloy]

Just to play devil's advocate here, since turning on SG mode to earn prestige reduced your Inf accrual -- at first across all levels, then changed so your Inf accrual only started to reduce in your 20's, dropping to 50% at 30 -- with so many characters running around with the double XP buff earning no Inf at all, what would that do to your prestige earnings? You're advocating a return to having to pay for everything in your SG base, which leaves all the SGs who already tricked out their bases sitting pretty while penalizing new SGs (which won't be able to create similar bases for quite a long time), and further penalizing them by making them forgo the XP boosters if they don't want to gimp their prestige gain.

 

And all for the purpose of getting back a dick-measuring contest (SG prestige ranking) that has absolutely nothing to do with actual game play, and is driven more by how many different players -- not characters -- you can get to join your SG. So I'm going to have to vote a hard 'no' on this; it adds nothing useful to the game, and just adds another form of elitism.

Edited May 11, 2020 by srmalloy
Grammar and punctuation

[thunderforce]

On 5/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, Oubliette_Red said:

Yeah, firmly put me in the NO column for turning prestige back on for everyone.

 

2 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Oh my.... Another I have a preference and want everybody to abide by "my" preference...

Perhaps we could have another thread for talking about turning it back on for everyone, which the OP didn't suggest, and we could reserve this one for the suggestion that it be made optional? It's not actually forbidden to read the OP before commenting on it.

 

I would use such an option and value it. (Indeed, I think the best overall approach would be to make functional base components cost Prestige and cosmetic base components free, but I appreciate that ship has sailed.)

[thunderforce]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

You're advocating a return to having to pay for everything in your SG base, which leaves all the SGs who already tricked out their bases sitting pretty while penalizing new SGs (which won't be able to create similar bases for quite a long time), and further penalizing them by making them forgo the XP boosters if they don't want to gimp their prestige gain.

No; the OP is suggesting having the option of paying for everything in your SG base if you find that satisfying. Again, it's not actually forbidden to read the OP.

[skoryy]

On 5/9/2020 at 2:42 AM, Greycat said:

And WHY did you feel the need to post in a thread that hadn't been posted in for nearly a year?

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Edited May 11, 2020 by skoryy

[Rathulfr]

If anything deserves a /jranger, this definitely deserves a /jranger.

 

/jranger

 

[Oubliette_Red]

1 hour ago, thunderforce said:

 

Perhaps we could have another thread for talking about turning it back on for everyone, which the OP didn't suggest, and we could reserve this one for the suggestion that it be made optional? It's not actually forbidden to read the OP before commenting on it.

 

I would use such an option and value it. (Indeed, I think the best overall approach would be to make functional base components cost Prestige and cosmetic base components free, but I appreciate that ship has sailed.)

When it comes to base builders, everything is cosmetic.  😄

I recall back in Legacy spending tens of millions of INF to convert to prestige to buy everything that would allow me to build the AI Central Core, including the power and control that was required, even though I was using it for purely aesthetic reasons to build a containment room for an RP session.

 

I never want to go back to grinding just to build.

 

The HC Devs have done some pretty amazing things, especially with the base code which was spaghetti code to the n^th-degree and easily broken. Anyone recall the defensive items firing on anyone that entered the base? Perhaps the HC Devs can work more magic and make Prestige a toggle for SGs who want it.