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ceto555

Best Solo Build?

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Man, I am giving you the best argument I can think of for your side in the form of an edge case, and you grab it like it's a fully developed universal answer and run with it to claim dominion over Stalkerhood. 😄

 

Have *you* soloed Apex/TinM/LRSF on a Stalker, specifically the Psi/Nin you advocate? Things that might seem to make sense on paper turn out very differently in a high pressure environment.

 

Namely, sacrificing efficiency for the sake of one situation where Confuse might be useful is likely to hurt your build to the point you may not succeed in the end. These are very tight scenarios that require optimisation of what resources we have.

 

FYI, the Confuse approach to Penelope isn't even "efficient" per se - it takes a lot of time, and because you don't control her attack behavior, it comes down to dumb luck. It's generally faster to do pulls, and in those cases Boggle is dead weight.

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5 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Namely, sacrificing efficiency for the sake of one situation where Confuse might be useful is likely to hurt your build to the point you may not succeed in the end. These are very tight scenarios that require optimisation of what resources we have.

Except you're not sacrificing efficiency. As I pointed out, ST damage performance between various Stalkers is very similar. Moreover, the key element of solo'ing such content isn't so much the build as the content knowledge - knowing precisely what you'll face and how to deal with it.

 

The argument being posited - "I can do it without that stuff, so it's useless" - could be applied equally well to every build. It's just an assertion of ignorance - that there can be no judgements made because every situation is different. While that's true to some extent, it avoids answering the question rather than trying to provide any sort of framework for thinking about the question.

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Can you answer the question before we go down yet another endless semantic debate that is equally abstract and pointless?

 

Have *you* soloed Apex/TinM/LRSF on a Stalker, specifically the Psi/Nin you advocate? Things that might seem to make sense on paper turn out very differently in a high pressure environment.

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On 2/8/2021 at 11:28 AM, nihilii said:

Can you answer the question before we go down yet another endless semantic debate that is equally abstract and pointless?

The 'abstract and pointless' debate is the only one that matters. I'm not sure why you'd want to derail the conversation into an endless e-peen debate.

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On 2/8/2021 at 11:28 AM, nihilii said:

Can you answer the question before we go down yet another endless semantic debate that is equally abstract and pointless?

 

Have *you* soloed Apex/TinM/LRSF on a Stalker, specifically the Psi/Nin you advocate? Things that might seem to make sense on paper turn out very differently in a high pressure environment.

 

The idea that someone can't offer arguments without having done a specific task with a specific build (and, perhaps, being subject to shifting goalposts like difficulty setting) just Boggles my mind.

So, you see... there IS a use for Boggle in a high-pressure posting environment 😉 😄

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@Hjarki I am asking you a simple question because in my opinion, your objections and arguments betray fundamental misunderstandings of the task at hand.

 

I'm open to the possibility I don't know everything and that you have a different approach to the problem I am blind to.

As far as I'm concerned, I already made central points you choose to ignore, in favor of focusing on an undeveloped tangent I served you on a silver platter. We could go in circles repeating the same things. Or you could tell me if you speak from experience or not.

Rest assured if you actually answer the question with a straight "yes" or "no", I'm more than willing to address your previous points.

Edited by nihilii

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1 hour ago, Coyote said:

The idea that someone can't offer arguments without having done a specific task with a specific build (and, perhaps, being subject to shifting goalposts like difficulty setting) just Boggles my mind.

So, you see... there IS a use for Boggle in a high-pressure posting environment 😉 😄

I do feel someone who strolls into a topic and introduces the idea of soloing +4 TFs when there previously was no such discussion, and preemptively assures everyone "this is impossible", would be helped by practical knowledge.

Especially when that same poster goes on to reply to someone else merely offering their own experience with something that boiled down to "L2P, noob".

YMMV, of course. I find your own assessment of my position to be as distorted as Hjarki implying Croax said Boggle was useless. But if I'm misreading you here, I apologize.

 

To clarify, I have no problem with anyone offering any argument on anything even if they never moved out of Atlas Park. Nonetheless it helps to know where other people come from, if only to better frame your own point so it's understandable. When the discussion starts circling around pointless abstractions instead of addressing a previous showstopper point, there's clearly some breakdown in the conversation.

 

To me the strict DPS requirements that come with the territory in a Stalker solo Apex/TinM/LRSF attempt is obvious, to Hjarki it seemingly isn't. So either he knows something I don't or he doesn't know something I do, and the less information we withhold about that, the more likely we are to have some kind of fruitful exchange.

Edited by nihilii
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1 hour ago, nihilii said:

*snip*

Psst... I think Coyote is making a funny and not a dig at ya. 🙃

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5 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Psst... I think Coyote is making a funny and not a dig at ya. 🙃

Oof. I need to cool down.

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Hey you all.

 

This conversation is going wild. There is a reason why i do not like debates. I would be happy to go into details with Stalkers soloing specific tasks, like the OP asked initialy. 

 

I think that Stalkers are very potent, but to be so strong you need a strong build. I think that boggle is not useless but i simply do not use it. There is a limit to which powers you can pick and how many slots to distribute. When i make a build i also am careful to pick them exemplar friendly. That makes builds somewhat tight and i end up droping powers to make room for the more impactful powers. If i look into /Nin for example there are Smoke Flash, Caultrops and Blinding powder. I am sure you can do silly things with it and slot them to get a lot of nice set bonuses, but you could also just pick Maneuver, Assault and Vengeance. Without any slots into these 3 Powers you can now slot 2 LotG and have nice but small damage and defense increase. Something that the 3 /Nin Powers never could support with only the initial slots. These are some of the tough choices i do make in my builds.

 

And be sure that while soloing the freedom phalanx, you start to learn some things. For example which heroes can fly, numina heals other AVs and pen is a bitch. Soloing, while beeing one of the few challenges in this game, is not the most efficient way of doing things. Also you have to start with some preparations. Like getting the four stat enhancing accolades, warburg nukes, temp powers like daggers, analyser, lvl 4 incarnates and the good inspirations. And i now buy amplifiers for almost all of my high level toons.

 

That you can solo something does not mean it is a walk in the park.

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7 hours ago, nihilii said:

I do feel someone who strolls into a topic and introduces the idea of soloing +4 TFs when there previously was no such discussion, and preemptively assures everyone "this is impossible", would be helped by practical knowledge.

If you feel there is a Stalker build that can solo every TF in the game at +4, then feel free to present it. This is an example of a claim that - if false - is easily shown as such by counter-example.

7 hours ago, nihilii said:

To clarify, I have no problem with anyone offering any argument on anything even if they never moved out of Atlas Park. Nonetheless it helps to know where other people come from, if only to better frame your own point so it's understandable. When the discussion starts circling around pointless abstractions instead of addressing a previous showstopper point, there's clearly some breakdown in the conversation.

"Knowing where people come from" is only useful if your intent is an ad hominem attack or an argument from authority - in other words, you have no actual argument. Which is why reasonable people refuse to engage such debates.

7 hours ago, nihilii said:

To me the strict DPS requirements that come with the territory in a Stalker solo Apex/TinM/LRSF attempt is obvious, to Hjarki it seemingly isn't.

The "strict DPS requirements" are ones that can be met by essentially any combination of Stalker power sets because potential single target dps from Stalkers just doesn't vary all that much when your two hardest-hitting attacks are the same across all sets.

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52 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

The "strict DPS requirements" are ones that can be met by essentially any combination of Stalker power sets because potential single target dps from Stalkers just doesn't vary all that much when your two hardest-hitting attacks are the same across all sets.

 

This seems closer to accurate if sticking only to the primaries. Because there are certainly secondaries that do affect damage significantly. Especially for AoE, but even in single-target damage, there is a lot of difference between /Bio and /Willpower.

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5 minutes ago, Coyote said:

This seems closer to accurate if sticking only to the primaries. Because there are certainly secondaries that do affect damage significantly. Especially for AoE, but even in single-target damage, there is a lot of difference between /Bio and /Willpower.

I suppose it depends on how you define 'a lot'. +25% damage (?) will translate into about 8% more actual damage.  One way to think about this is that 4% damage = 5% single defense = 6% Resist = 10% recharge (in terms of how it's costed on enhancements). The exchange rate is more imperfect than I'm making out because you're considerably constrained about which enhancement sets you can use, but you can trade off one stat for another at the rates listed to a large extent. So an argument could be made that the +25% damage you're receive would be roughly equivalent to getting something like +15% to S/L Def and +6% to all resists - which is similar to what Bio gives up defensively.

 

I think it's fair to say that if you're largely unconcerned with your defenses, Bio will out-perform Willpower - and that most Stalkers have a rather cavalierly attitude towards defenses because impervious-to-all-harm is not why you're bringing a Stalker along. However, I'd quibble over "a lot of difference". Simply having an attack in primary that can effectively slot Achilles' Heel is likely more important than your secondary choice for the purposes of a pylon test.

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5 hours ago, Hjarki said:

"Knowing where people come from" is only useful if your intent is an ad hominem attack or an argument from authority - in other words, you have no actual argument.

At this point in the conversation, you still haven't addressed the following arguments:

 

1.) "he did point out very specific scenarios (soloing Apex, TinM, LRSF), and I don't think arguing vague general statements make for convincing rebuttals."

 

2.) "i.e., the value of Confuse is not obvious to me, because the main threats of these task forces are level 53 and 54 groups of archvillains where you'd need mag4+ confuse to confuse them, and only during the short window of time purple triangles are down. "

 

3.) "More importantly, there are opportunity costs to every action. You have to deal 400+ DPS to make decent progress when everything is factored. Spending ~2 seconds on a nondamaging Boggle cast is devastating to your damage output."

 

4.) "You're preaching "tier2" build knowledge to someone who is likely operating at "tier3" or "tier4" build knowledge. We are not talking about the Citadel task force here. To get to that next level, you often need to move beyond a conventional defense/recharge bonus chase, and into proc-loaded attack chains and squeezing every slot to maximum potential."

 

5.) "Boggle has marginal uses against anything that matters."

 

6.) "Things that might seem to make sense on paper turn out very differently in a high pressure environment. Namely, sacrificing efficiency for the sake of one situation where Confuse might be useful is likely to hurt your build to the point you may not succeed in the end. These are very tight scenarios that require optimisation of what resources we have."

 

7.) "FYI, the Confuse approach to Penelope isn't even "efficient" per se - it takes a lot of time, and because you don't control her attack behavior, it comes down to dumb luck. It's generally faster to do pulls, and in those cases Boggle is dead weight. "

 

8.) "To me the strict DPS requirements that come with the territory in a Stalker solo Apex/TinM/LRSF attempt is obvious, to Hjarki it seemingly isn't. So either he knows something I don't or he doesn't know something I do, and the less information we withhold about that, the more likely we are to have some kind of fruitful exchange.

 

What feeble attempts you make to actually address something tend to break down something into a half-quote in order to remove meaning from the point, then answer with an equally offtopic comment... i.e. "the strict DPS requirements" in point 8 is not a statement confronting Stalker primaries with each other, but rather once again pointing out you need so much DPS both build and playstyle optimizations are in order, and spamming Boggle or Blinding Powder simply won't cut it.

This is yet another point that would likely be obvious to anyone who tried the task at hand. Your insistence on attacking the point of the question seem only matched with your determination to prove that point through your apparent ignorance of the topic...
 

Enough with the nonsense.


Pure theorycraft in itself isn't bad, provided an earnest attempt is made to support theorycraft with numbers and facts.
 

Running away from any specific point back to general abstractions, burying targeted examples into semantic drivel, does not even qualify as theorycraft. It's just plain trolling.

 

A theorycrafter who would believe in good faith anyone who can't make Boggle work in a LRSF is ignorant could make a decent attempt to quantify the theoretical impact of Boggle on DPS.

 

He might start by looking at the cast time (2.244s), the duration (24s once slotted against a +3 with player level shift), the requirements (mag4 = 2 casts). This gives us 1/6th of the time spent in Boggle casts, assuming ideal player execution.

Losing 1/6 of your DPS might or might not be sizeable. As a theorycrafter with no practical experience we could attempt to work out AV regen and player DPS numbers to get a better picture. A level 53 archvillain regens close to 100hp per second, and DPS against a +3 will be 80% of what it is against a Pylon.

 

Imagine our Stalker deals 300 DPS

300 * 0.8  - 100 = 140

300 * 0.8 * 5/6 - 100 = 100

100/140 = 29%
At 300 DPS, a pretty steep decrease

 

Imagine our Stalker deals 500 DPS

500 * 0.8 - 100 = 300

500 * 0.8 * 5/6 - 100 = 233.33

233.33/300 = 23%

At 500 DPS, still a sizeable hit

This doesn't look so well even from a theorycraft perspective. To be honest at this point of the post I don't know where to go, because I was attempting to do the theorycrafter's homework, point out this would be the right approach for supporting pure theorycraft arguments, THEN argue there are other factors that show up in practical play and try to define these. But it seems the numbers are so damning against Boggle even the theorycraft approach breaks down early. Unless one doesn't consider 23% performance hits significant, I suppose...

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13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

If you feel there is a Stalker build that can solo every TF in the game at +4, then feel free to present it. This is an example of a claim that - if false - is easily shown as such by counter-example.

This wasn't the issue as presented by Nihilii since that conversation included questions on the value of Confusion especially in specific TFs.  This trends towards an example of a strawman.  However, it is a relevant question to ask Croax a bit more about the details on a build used to solo the other TFs mentioned on page 1.  Merits on value on specific powers could be analyzed further from there.   

 

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

"Knowing where people come from" is only useful if your intent is an ad hominem attack or an argument from authority - in other words, you have no actual argument. Which is why reasonable people refuse to engage such debates.

This seems pretty disingenuous, Hjarki.  Nihilii isn't insulting you but you may interpret some of the language used as ad hominem.  It isn't though.  Nihilii is still attacking the substance of your statements but not you as a person.  Ad hominem is a debate tactic to attack the person.  

Equally disingenuous is the use of appeal to authority.  Nihilii is expressing they're perspective on soloing tactics in very specific encounters.  The opinion presented by Nihilii is that certain powers aren't worth their use due to performance impact.  Your counter argument has been akin to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  When challenged on this is to discover more information you do nothing but deflect and evade the questions asked.  This then leads into commentary like "pointless" and "abstract".  Nihilii isn't raising abstractions but instead speaking from first-hand experience.  

Also, an appeal to authority is a debate tactic when someone makes a statement along the lines of "So-and-so states that Y is equal to X and therefore Y = X is a true statement".  This isn't what Nihilii is doing, at all.  Instead, the argument stems from first-hand knowledge.  In kind, Nihilii is asking *you* if you have first-hand knowledge.  Perhaps, there could have been some room to argue the merits of that experience, but Nihilii has now asked repeatedly.  This seems to be a genuine question to better their understanding of the game.  However, you pretend the debate is something it isn't and do nothing but offer diversions.  This is construct of a weak argument.  If anyone has no actual argument, then that would be yourself.  You've not gained any ground here.  [I also say this with all due respect, and not the Talladega Nights kind.]
 

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

The "strict DPS requirements" are ones that can be met by essentially any combination of Stalker power sets because potential single target dps from Stalkers just doesn't vary all that much when your two hardest-hitting attacks are the same across all sets.

This also appears to be another attempt at deflection and is borderline strawman building.  

Note, that pointing out strawman construction, the definition of ad hominem, or appeal to authority logical fallacy are not ad hominem attacks.  These are criticisms of the debate tactics which showcase one party's refusal to engage in the topic by obfuscating intent using erudite terminology.  Either the author of this approach knows what these things mean and is purposefully playing ignorant to argue in bad faith, or they really don't know what they are taking about in-depth.  Either approach is rather tiresome and not representative the intelligence involved. 

Edited by oldskool
Some changes to reduce appearance of personal attack; it isn't intended to be. Genuine criticism about a losing argument and misuse of debate descriptions.
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Hold on a second before you pile too much on @Hjarki... the conversation started with the topic of Stalkers soloing. He added his opinion that the special tools from Psy/Nin are useful in some situations for soloing (for the record, I agree).

 

THEN, the situation was introduced regarding soloing the TFs with forced Level 54 AVs... and it was claimed that Boggle and Blinding Powder are not useful. But that's in the context of THIS specific edge case. Hjarki continued to argue that Boggle, BP, and other side powers (Oppressive Gloom as an example) are useful powers. He didn't say "other than in these TFs", but neither did he say "in these TFs". So it's possible that there is a bit of discontinuity in the conversation, where different sides are making argument about different situations, not different opinions regarding the same situation

 

That's actually why I came in with a joke, because the separation seemed obvious to me... I also agree that Boggle is a great power for leveling when it's useful to turn a buffing/debuffing LT on your side. And I agree that it's basically useless in these TFs, other than Contagious Confusion having great set bonuses (though not for every defensive set). So I agree with everyone (because I'm that agreeable :D), and I think the disagreements are a matter of venue for soloing.

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5 hours ago, nihilii said:

But it seems the numbers are so damning against Boggle even the theorycraft approach breaks down early.

 

if I used Boggle against an AV, and I don't think that this really applies in all of the TFs because of where the AVs are spawned, I'd be alternating targets, and keeping a Boss Confused. Then the question becomes whether the Boss puts out enough DPS to make up for the loss of personal DPS. Also, it would be replacing a filler attack rather than AS-GreaterPsyBlade, so it wouldn't be taking 23% of the average DPS, but 23% of, say, TK Blow's DPA. Another option might be to find a debuffing minion or LT, and Confuse that one, and then use Boggle a lot less. If the debuffs are right, it could be a benefit.

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13 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Hold on a second before you pile too much on @Hjarki... the conversation started with the topic of Stalkers soloing. He added his opinion that the special tools from Psy/Nin are useful in some situations for soloing (for the record, I agree).

 

THEN, the situation was introduced regarding soloing the TFs with forced Level 54 AVs... and it was claimed that Boggle and Blinding Powder are not useful. But that's in the context of THIS specific edge case. Hjarki continued to argue that Boggle, BP, and other side powers (Oppressive Gloom as an example) are useful powers. He didn't say "other than in these TFs", but neither did he say "in these TFs". So it's possible that there is a bit of discontinuity in the conversation, where different sides are making argument about different situations, not different opinions regarding the same situation

 

That's actually why I came in with a joke, because the separation seemed obvious to me... I also agree that Boggle is a great power for leveling when it's useful to turn a buffing/debuffing LT on your side. And I agree that it's basically useless in these TFs, other than Contagious Confusion having great set bonuses (though not for every defensive set). So I agree with everyone (because I'm that agreeable :D), and I think the disagreements are a matter of venue for soloing.

Which is a good point.  

The first commentary from Hjarki was pointing out Psi/Nin has tools that provide them as a player with some options that may make the experience feel more unique.  It wasn't a selling point on a DPS machine and even mention of not using it for a fire farm was made.  Fair points, and I can agree with this.  

Croax brings up the notion that Boggle, Smoke Flash, and Blinding Powder could be consider "a big noob trap" and "do not listen to advice that these [this] person gives to you".  This appears to be a direct jab at Hjarki's previous statement.  So the response becomes "Just because you don't know how to use a power doesn't make it useless".  Which, as noted, isn't what was described.  It was an opinion, maybe harshly worded, on the lack of value of those powers to that player (further explained on page 2).  At no point did the person express either a lack of understanding of how they work, or a deeper explanation as to why they are noob traps.  Still, this started the spiraling out of control point.  

So then this moves into a discussion about how Confuse isn't an obvious choice in the realm of DPS checking for some extreme solo play.  

Then we have the circular discussions where it looks like there are attempts to save face.  Really this conversation could have been cut off entirely in the first reply to Nihilii that the Psi/Nin build was pointed out due to fun factor.  Yet, no the argumentation had to push it with what would constitute at qualitative advantage and argument about equivalence primary DPS.  This is where foot meets mouth.

Then that gets a bit out of control to the point where accusations on debate tactics is being brought up.  My criticism here isn't to "pile on", (I do understand if it looks that way; sorry) but to highlight this is a losing argument.  

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45 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Also, it would be replacing a filler attack rather than AS-GreaterPsyBlade, so it wouldn't be taking 23% of the average DPS, but 23% of, say, TK Blow's DPA.

Entirely fair point. It would be interesting if more involved to crunch the numbers of an attack chain involving Boggle.
 

49 minutes ago, Coyote said:

He didn't say "other than in these TFs", but neither did he say "in these TFs".

Whether the quote and the answer to the quote even implied these TFs or not (IMHO they both did) is IMHO irrelevant. I strongly feel the statement "Boggle is never an enabler" to be true - if we stick to good faith performance metrics, obviously. One could argue Boggle is inherently an "enabler" because it "enables" you to confuse a Tsoo Sorcerer who then heals you and no other power can "enable" that, but... something being *unique* doesn't inherently make it an *achievement* or quantitatively *useful* in achieving feats you could not achieve otherwise. To my view this is more wordplay than anything.

 

Solo Apex, TinM, LRSF are useful in presenting a specific example of a high difficulty challenge that can serve as a benchmark for discussion. Presumably if you can solo these you should be able to take on most other TFs in the game (notable exceptions being STF, LGTF...) simply because they're markedly easier, even on +4 - although exemplaring might make it harder for certain builds optimized at 50. I must say I find it rather arbitrary to run mid-level TFs at +4 and indeed, never saw it discussed before this thread, but there's nothing inherently less valid about the idea.


So if the best option for the hardest tasks is not to use Boggle, it follows that even if Boggle can be useful there and elsewhere, and even if it happened to be the best option in some lesser challenge, it still wouldn't be an optimal option. Presumably, the best solo build would be the build that can handle the hardest tasks, or as many tasks as possible and that would include the hardest tasks. Although at this point, we can open yet another can of worms about the definition of "best". Big YMMV.
 

Throw it strong claims like "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE" and "JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE A POWER...", and you have a recipe for short-fuse nihiliis to reply with walls of text. 😛

Edited by nihilii
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@ceto555

 

Back to your question, I have had great success with EM/EnA and El/SD on a variety of missions, TFs/SFs, etc.

 I've had great success on merit farming in Dark Astoria. Mind you, I didn't have the diff cranked up to +4×8, but, I did have it as a good challenge to keep me on my toes.

As long as you have a solid build and enjoy playing it, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

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My Stalkers are second only to my Tanks on Homecoming (12/10). . .

Any Stalker can be a solo machine but if you want to push the limits here are the ones I have just found AMAZING:

Elec/Shield (already mentioned multiple times but this is my goto Stalker for just about everything.

Ice/Shield (close second to the above)

EM/Dark (this just feels like a stalker should feel)

StJ/Bio (I was quite surprised by this combo and sustainbility but definitely lacks AoE)

 

Mess around and you can definitely find a Stalker to your liking and become a relentless killing (errrr. . . arresting) machine!

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