Opinion: Tier 1 Attacks Should Cost 0 Endurance

[Haijinx]

At early levels you can buy the three combat boosters and reduce this somewhat.

 

You can run DFBs till 22 if you are in a real hurry, then get SOs and slot a performance shifter into stamina 

 

Or if in an even bigger hurry, just run the Bads level 2 space farm and be level 22 in idk 90 min? 

 

I prefer to run through goldside myself.  After 6x50s and lotsx30s since coming back, not really in a hurry now.

[SeraphimKensai]

I hate to do this to any post but /jranger.

Zero end cost t1's would nullify endurance management, and sapper based pvpers.

[aethereal]

This also has the potential to be a newbie trap.  The T1 attacks in most sets are not good.  Even if they were zero endurance, they're not good.  Encouraging players to heavily use them and slot them just creates another point where you're rewarding play that leads to problems later in the game.

[oedipus_tex]

Thanks for your replies. I am however further entrenched in my position that T1 attacks should cost negligible endurance based on the comments. 

 

It's a T1 attack. It has a locked damage potential. If people spam it, good. These powers are for the most part not very useful. They hit one target. They are routinely skipped by most players. The damage from your own powerset is so poor the developers gave away freebie powers to keep the game moving. 

 

9 hours ago, aethereal said:

This also has the potential to be a newbie trap.  The T1 attacks in most sets are not good.  Even if they were zero endurance, they're not good.  Encouraging players to heavily use them and slot them just creates another point where you're rewarding play that leads to problems later in the game.

 

I disagree that this is an issue. Once a player reaches higher levels, responsibility begins to fall on them to manage their character. The current issue is it takes more knowledge of the game to manage the character at early levels than at high levels. It's been an issue since the game launched.

 

I also remember when people hit the roof over inherent Stamina, which is why I am skeptical a low or no cost T1 power would wreck the game. But I appreciate comments anyway.

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Thanks for your replies. I am however further entrenched in my position that T1 attacks should cost negligible endurance based on the comments. 

 

It's a T1 attack. It has a locked damage potential. If people spam it, good. These powers are for the most part not very useful. They hit one target. They are routinely skipped by most players. The damage from your own powerset is so poor the developers gave away freebie powers to keep the game moving. 

 

 

I disagree that this is an issue. Once a player reaches higher levels, responsibility begins to fall on them to manage their character. The current issue is it takes more knowledge of the game to manage the character at early levels than at high levels. It's been an issue since the game launched.

 

I also remember when people hit the roof over inherent Stamina, which is why I am skeptical a low or no cost T1 power would wreck the game. But I appreciate comments anyway.

T1 powers already have minimal end costs, your proposed change will basically make next to no difference except move us even closer to total faceroll

[BrandX]

I really haven't found end management in the early game to be a problem since they gave us Stamina.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

T1 powers already have minimal end costs, your proposed change will basically make next to no difference except move us even closer to total faceroll

 

That seems like a pretty strong range of extremes. I don't think it is possible that the proposed changes would both have almost no effect, while also making the game a faceroll. One extreme or the other seems more likely, although I doubt it would be that drastic in either direction.

 

On Controllers and Dominators, Tier 1 immobilize attacks cost 7.8 endurance. These ATs would most notice the change. I frankly do not a fear a game where Controllers and Dominators are casting Chillblain. Does anyone really, or are these objections rooted in something else? 

 

Meanwhile I don't bother casting a number of the Dominator T1 attacks pretty much ever after sufficiently high levels. They are just powers I am stuck with. Kinda sucks since some of them (the bee blast one for example) are kind of cool looking.

 

On some archetypes the cost is already really low, in the range of 3-5. I doubt if a change would even hugely be noticed. It would give you an additional fairly minor, but not negligible reason to consider these powers.  I admit I am less familiar with these ATs, although I have played them. They have fewer issues in part because they kill fast enough to get inspiration drops. So maybe you are correct and there is an issue there, and it's only the Controller/Doms that could use a lift. But again I sort of doubt it. 

 

Thanks again for the replies.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

That seems like a pretty strong range of extremes. I don't think it is possible that the proposed changes would both have almost no effect, while also making the game a faceroll. One extreme or the other seems more likely, although I doubt it would be that drastic in either direction.

 

On Controllers and Dominators, Tier 1 immobilize attacks cost 7.8 endurance. These ATs would most notice the change. I frankly do not a fear a game where Controllers and Dominators are casting Chillblain. Does anyone really, or are these objections rooted in something else? 

 

Meanwhile I don't bother casting a number of the Dominator T1 attacks pretty much ever after sufficiently high levels. They are just powers I am stuck with. Kinda sucks since some of them (the bee blast one for example) are kind of cool looking.

 

On some archetypes the cost is already really low, in the range of 3-5. I doubt if a change would even hugely be noticed. It would give you an additional fairly minor, but not negligible reason to consider these powers.  I admit I am less familiar with these ATs, although I have played them. They have fewer issues in part because they kill fast enough to get inspiration drops. So maybe you are correct and there is an issue there, and it's only the Controller/Doms that could use a lift. But again I sort of doubt it. 

 

Thanks again for the replies.

Sorry I haven't been clear, my objection is that your proposed change isn't going to make the people that skip T1 attacks take them (it won't) but it WILL make the already to easy early levels even easier, learning to end manage isn't hard, and basically completely fixes the problem you are trying to fix.  I take and have in my attack chains on every toon I have the t1 attacks, usually 6 slotted before any other power in fact, so my power choices would be completely unaffected by your change, however, the people who avoid them are NOT going to suddenly select them because they don't use end, the end cost isn't why they skip them.  

 

I'm not trying to change your mind, if you can convince the Dev's it will happen, I am supplying them with the counter argument that it will achieve nothing positive thats all

[Leogunner]

It's a power curve.  Of course you're going to feel the low levels are a drag and management of END is more difficult...but the enemies are easier in exchange.  As you get stronger, you get more tools and thus better options for managing END.  For a curve to exist, you have to have a low point to curve up to.

 

This is just one of the dozens upon dozens of other suggestions that request to make that curve less to non-existent.  Let us not forget those other gems like inherent "hasten", epic power pools lowered to lvl 4/14, selecting tier 1 and 2 from secondary at the start, SOs at level 1, and various other "remove this nerf" requests.  Removing the END on the tier 1 doesn't help with managing END anyway, it's just something you can spam when you've failed to manage your END at all.

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

It's a power curve.  Of course you're going to feel the low levels are a drag and management of END is more difficult...but the enemies are easier in exchange.  As you get stronger, you get more tools and thus better options for managing END.  For a curve to exist, you have to have a low point to curve up to.

 

This is just one of the dozens upon dozens of other suggestions that request to make that curve less to non-existent.  Let us not forget those other gems like inherent "hasten", epic power pools lowered to lvl 4/14, selecting tier 1 and 2 from secondary at the start, SOs at level 1, and various other "remove this nerf" requests.  Removing the END on the tier 1 doesn't help with managing END anyway, it's just something you can spam when you've failed to manage your END at all.

exactly what I was trying to say and failing, thank you!!

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

exactly what I was trying to say and failing, thank you!!

lets just let you slot purples from level 1, will make everything less complicated.  

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

lets just let you slot purples from level 1, will make everything less complicated.  

maybe we need an enh beter than purples?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

maybe we need an enh beter than purples?

Ultraviolet Enhancements, but you need special glasses to see them.  

 

 

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Ultraviolet Enhancements, but you need special glasses to see them.  

 

 

damn, I already have to many pairs of glasses I keep losing them!!!!

[Monos King]

@Haijinx @boggo2300

Let's not make jokes at the thread proposers expense, I'm sure it does little to enlighten anyone. This is however a bad idea.

Would you suggest that we make nuke type abilities auto-hit because people don't like to miss the big pay-off? 

Would you suggest we make t2 abilities unresistable because bosses have resistance?

Endurance management is something that is discovered early on, exactly because of struggles that are met during the initial phases. You also don't hit very hard, miss, and are weak. So are the enemies. The moment you have the ability to slot enhancements, I.E. Progress, these cease to be an issue.

While fending for yourself with mediocre endurance, you launch diversion tactics or play tag or eat inspirations. But the point is if your complaining about having difficulties at lower levels, I think your forgetting the purpose of progression.

Edited January 1, 2020 by monos1

[boggo2300]

8 minutes ago, monos1 said:

@Haijinx @boggo2300

Let's not make jokes at the thread proposers expense, I'm sure it does little to enlighten anyone. This is however a bad idea.

Would you suggest that we make nuke type abilities auto-hit because people don't like to miss the big pay-off? 

Would you suggest we make t2 abilities unresistable because bosses have resistance?

Endurance management is something that is discovered early on, exactly because of struggles that are met during the initial phases. You also don't hit very hard, miss, and are weak. So are the enemies. The moment you have the ability to slot enhancements, I.E. Progress, these cease to be an issue.

While fending for yourself with mediocre endurance, you launch diversion tactics or play tag or eat inspirations. But the point is if your complaining about having difficulties at lower levels, I think your forgetting the purpose of progression.

the jokes aren't really directed at the OP, the jokes are directed at the continual power creep suggestions that the suggestions sub forum is full of, it's either make jokes or cry, I prefer the jokes

[MunkiLord]

On 12/31/2019 at 3:44 AM, Haijinx said:

Broadsword and Katana are going to love this option

And Dark Melee! 

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

the jokes aren't really directed at the OP, the jokes are directed at the continual power creep suggestions that the suggestions sub forum is full of, it's either make jokes or cry, I prefer the jokes

I think there is fundamental disagreement between those who think the game should be easier, and those who think its easy enough already.

 

This no end suggestion seems to be a nod in the direction of games like Champions Online and SWTOR with their Energy Builder type base attacks.  

 

COH is not those games.  And thus, the fit would be off, even without the power creep aspect.  

 

Of course with the power creep it seems a worse idea.

[FDR's Think Tank]

The Early Game should be for teaching players how to play the game. Endurance management is a skill people should probably learn in a game with a limited Endurance supply. While Vets can rocket past the early stages of the game, someone new to CoH or just new to MMOs might find those early days frustrating, but not insurmountable. This game is far from difficult, Unless you play a Trick Arrow Defender.

 

Is Brawl Zero Endurance Cost? What about the Origin Ranged Bonus Attack Powers? I think they cost a little bit, right?

[BrandX]

25 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

The Early Game should be for teaching players how to play the game. Endurance management is a skill people should probably learn in a game with a limited Endurance supply. While Vets can rocket past the early stages of the game, someone new to CoH or just new to MMOs might find those early days frustrating, but not insurmountable. This game is far from difficult, Unless you play a Trick Arrow Defender.

 

Is Brawl Zero Endurance Cost? What about the Origin Ranged Bonus Attack Powers? I think they cost a little bit, right?

Free to both brawl and origin.

[FDR's Think Tank]

2 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Free to both brawl and origin.

You know what would be interesting? A sort of Zero-cost "Cantrip" sort of power pool. It would have various low/no endurance cost variants of your different basic powers. It would be the "Jack of All Trades" power pool. Or something.

 

I think with the current Tier one powers, if endurance is the major consideration, you can slot it that way, instead of for damage. If you make it zero cost, you are just reducing the variety of build strategies people can employ to suit their personal tastes.

 

My issue is that for the most part, players are majorly rewarded for slotting Damage and Accuracy. Making the power Zero cost just lets people have their cake and eat it too. I remember they talked about Enhancement Diversification for YEARS to the point where I had believed it was already implemented. Then they DID implement it and people were ticked off! THEN they made the IO enhancements and everything went out the window.

 

However, there is something you have picked up on here that I think is somewhat critical to game theory... to make a game really deep, whether you are pitting players against each other or an automated environment, Resource Management isn't the ONLY set of skills you can challenge players with. In fact, if you are clever, you can make an incredibly deep system by giving players OPTIONS about which system to commit to. I don't think it would be impossible to design an attack set that taxes a players risk management abilities more than their resource management ones. However, balancing that with existing archetypes like the Brute might be daunting. Their inherent might make risky playstyle TOO rewarding. It's something to ponder.

 

(I don't know if anyone here has ever played "Warmachine"... but they had a similar dual structure with "Hordes". The games were compatible and had the same sequencing... but the factions from one set focused on Resource Management based powers and the other set focused on Risk Management. In a purely ideal system, you would try to find a third management style so you could build in dual opposing pain wheels, which, with a computer game, doesn't slow down the action but leaves the tactics and strategy very deep. Maybe the third style could be a Bluff/Counter style with blowback for bad judgement...)

 

Of course, for the purposes of making CoH more of a Superhero Simulator, I don't see any problem with making all tier one abilities have lower endurance, but you have to remember, you only said the tier one attacks. It might be terribly unbalancing to make such a sweeping benefit to attack abilities, but tell players with defense tier ones that they get nothing. Since the game is mostly PvE some people won't even notice it. And what I understand about PvP is that it's all bouncing around with alpha strikes, so it's likely this wouldn't affect it at all. It's hard to predict what else might come of it.

 

I will admit, I am biased too... Trick Arrow Defenders have VERY little going for them right now... but when the team is wiped, they are one of the few classes that gets huge benefits in combat, what with reduced costs for all attacks. If my opponents and I are both low on endurance, my ability to economize and keep debuffing and attacking is where all my hope lies. Giving everyone another free attack for nothing isn't making me happy! Perhaps that's too deeply bitter, huh?

[Erydanus]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:35 AM, oedipus_tex said:

 It's especially bad for low damage characters like Controllers.

Literally, no. Just no.

 

There is no special end management problem for Controllers and if there was it wouldn't be from their T1s costing too much. Stamina is free at level 2 which ameliorates most of the problems that people did have with attack chains at teen-ish levels before. As a controller if you're worrying about damage I presume you're talking about soloing, and if that's the case you need to play smartly and NOT spam your DoTs onto targets until the previous DoTs have run fully. Cycling your hold and immobilize on two different targets and letting them fully cook gets you the full amount of damage you paid end for. At higher levels if you're running various buffs & debuffs and attacking as well of course you need to strategize how to manage your end, but as someone who has played so many different combinations of controllers on live and several here, it's just player skill we're talking about. Skill in being smart in your combat actions, and in your slotting.

 

Just in general the idea that the T1s are "always skipped" by everyone in every pool is straight up ignorant. There's a general pattern to T1s and T2s and that is the T1s are faster but weaker which provides more attack chain filler while the T2s hit a little harder. But they also tend to add flavor to the sets and sometimes have special advantages - like blasters being able to use both of them when mezzed. We were actually discussing this the other night on Help giving advice to a new player and several people were talking about how the choice between T1 and T2 and both is meaningful to them. People may have a preference for the weaker/faster power at low levels but respec out of it later when they have more attack powers selected - or they may keep it for filler purposes when exemped. Brutes for example may take and put the T1 on auto for fury building (brawl works great for that too but I find myself actually interrupted by brawl auto firing) while scrappers do typically go for the slower attack. But again depending on the powerset maybe they will take both.

 

Ultimately at low levels, as already mentioned, the biggest endurance cost is missed attacks. Accuracy wasting end is the culprit - it's one reason that the buffs you can get from Death from Below and Drowning in Blood are so useful as they can carry you to SO-Equivalent levels.  It's not even the cost of running a couple toggles that drains people, it's having to attack extra times because they miss. (Using AoEs on single targets is also a big waste.) Which then leads to the next cause: too low damage making you have to attack again. Get enough accuracy (30%ish, let's assume you're not trying to run +4 when you're level 10 that would just be stupid) and then got a couple bread & butter attacks enhanced up to 80-90% damage and watch the end bar not chew up too fast. Speaking of controllers, you know how I slot their single target hold & immobilize up into the 30s? 1 Acc 3 Dmg. After that then I play with hold duration or procs as the character can afford and meets their theme but I slot those 2 powers for damage first.

[oedipus_tex]

14 hours ago, Leogunner said:

It's a power curve.  Of course you're going to feel the low levels are a drag and management of END is more difficult...but the enemies are easier in exchange.  As you get stronger, you get more tools and thus better options for managing END.  For a curve to exist, you have to have a low point to curve up to.

 

This is just one of the dozens upon dozens of other suggestions that request to make that curve less to non-existent.  Let us not forget those other gems like inherent "hasten", epic power pools lowered to lvl 4/14, selecting tier 1 and 2 from secondary at the start, SOs at level 1, and various other "remove this nerf" requests.  Removing the END on the tier 1 doesn't help with managing END anyway, it's just something you can spam when you've failed to manage your END at all.

 

 

Sorry but I disagree. "Power creep" applies to any game change proposal that improves quality of life.

 

In most classic RPGs, characters have actions they can take they do not require expending mana/energy/a spell slot/what have you.  In the early 00's it became popular to make all or most of a characters capabilities into spells/powers. So melee characters no longer have a "basic attack" that is somewhat decent. What got lost there is suddenly there is no "all the time" action for characters.

 

 

1 hour ago, Erydanus said:

 There's a general pattern to T1s and T2s and that is the T1s are faster but weaker which provides more attack chain filler while the T2s hit a little harder. But they also tend to add flavor to the sets and sometimes have special advantages - like blasters being able to use both of them when mezzed.

 

There's a general pattern to all of the attack powers in the game. They were designed using the following ratios:

• Recharge time
• Endurance cost
• Damage

Animation time was not (originally) considered even though it has a large impact on DPS.

 

Accuracy is a fourth variable that is locked at the same value for the majority of powers, except for powersets where extra Accuracy is their perk. The Accuracy value does occasionally increase or decrease though to incentivize slotting. Occasionally, a power will be auto-hit, removing the need for Accuracy entirely.

 

The reason the ratios matter is that when one of the values is out of alignment, it changes the slot-hungriness of the power. 

 

The big takeaway is that since every power is balanced using the same ratios, powers are therefor mostly interchangeable, and soon as one no longer fits the pattern of optimal DPS, it should be jettisoned. If the same ratio is used for all powers in a set, the attacks are interchangeable. The only solution for that is for some powers to be outliers. Secondary effects (stun, immobilize etc) can sometimes do that.

 

Unfortunately, for nearly all existing sets, the T1 is the most "vanilla" power with few other characteristics to set it apart.

 

Fairly typical slotting for an attack power is:

• x2 Accuracy
• x2 Damage
• x1 End Redux
• x1 Recharge

 

However each of these parameters has different implications:

• Accuracy: If a power is extra-accurate or auto-hit, you can skip all/some Accuracy slotting
• Damage: Attack powers generally always need to be enhanced for damage
• Endurance Reduction: Powers that cost no endurance do not need Endurance slotting
• Recharge: This one is all over the place and depends a lot on context. Usually skippable on powers with already-short recharges.

 

Auto-hit powers like Ice Rain let you burn less slots overall.

 

So what does lowering endurance cost of the T1 power do? 

 

For one thing it (very slightly) relieves the slot-pressure on that power. The cost of most of these powers is already low. Here are typical endurance costs for T1 powers that Recharge in 4 seconds:

• Controller, Dominator (Immobilize): 7.8
• Blaster, Defender, Corruptor, Scrapper, Stalker, Tanker, Dominator (Assault set): 5.2 

 

With 2-slotted Endurance reduction those values are roughly 4.5  and 2.3. Although truth is not a lot of people slot endurance reduction here.

 

So where I will concede is that on some archetypes where they already regularly use the T1 power a lot, the change might be too much. However, I also have to get back to my original question. Is a Controller using Chillblain really going to break the game? Really? 

 

Thank you again for the replies.

Edited January 1, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[boggo2300]

5 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

And Dark Melee! 

I really do have to play that, I have it on 4 toons but they are all still babies at level 10

[boggo2300]

3 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

The Early Game should be for teaching players how to play the game. Endurance management is a skill people should probably learn in a game with a limited Endurance supply. While Vets can rocket past the early stages of the game, someone new to CoH or just new to MMOs might find those early days frustrating, but not insurmountable. This game is far from difficult, Unless you play a Trick Arrow Defender.

 

Is Brawl Zero Endurance Cost? What about the Origin Ranged Bonus Attack Powers? I think they cost a little bit, right?

the origin ones and brawl are zero end

Edited January 1, 2020 by boggo2300
typooooooos