Kheldians. General Improvements and Null Gull Option

[Saiyajinzoningen]

interesting idea but this doesnt solve the PB knockback issue directly its just a bandaid

Edited January 5, 2020 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

interesting idea but this doesnt solve the PB knockback issue directly

... maybe because that's a SEPARATE ISSUE ...???

[Saiyajinzoningen]

12 hours ago, Redlynne said:

There's a push/pull factor you need to contend with.

 

Kheldians want to be on teams.

Teams don't necessarily want to have Kheldians on their teams (Peacebringers are especially maligned for their Knockback potential, for example).

 

By changing Cosmic Balance from a purely selfish power that ONLY benefits each individual Kheldian (while doing nothing else for the team) ... to being a team buff power that rewards a team for sticking together ... you wind up with a better "load balancing" of the social dynamics surrounding wanting to invite a Kheldian onto teams.  It won't go ALL the way towards "fixing" the push/pull factor of teaming with Kheldians just by itself, but it would certainly help that dynamic shift more in favor of teams wanting to have Kheldians on the team.

i was referencing this kheldian issue in this thread about kheldian issues and pointing out that the last suggestion did not address this particular kheldian issue

apologies if this was unclear

[boggo2300]

3 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i was referencing this kheldian issue in this thread about kheldian issues and pointing out that the last suggestion did not address this particular kheldian issue

apologies if this was unclear

Umm sorry, I thought I got what you meant, but your clarification lost me entirely, help?

[agentx5]

On 1/5/2020 at 9:12 AM, Redlynne said:

There's a push/pull factor you need to contend with.

 

Kheldians want to be on teams.

Teams don't necessarily want to have Kheldians on their teams (Peacebringers are especially maligned for their Knockback potential, for example).

 

By changing Cosmic Balance from a purely selfish power that ONLY benefits each individual Kheldian (while doing nothing else for the team) ... to being a team buff power that rewards a team for sticking together ... you wind up with a better "load balancing" of the social dynamics surrounding wanting to invite a Kheldian onto teams.  It won't go ALL the way towards "fixing" the push/pull factor of teaming with Kheldians just by itself, but it would certainly help that dynamic shift more in favor of teams wanting to have Kheldians on the team.

Ok that's a good point actually.  I get what you're saying now, maybe I didn't understand what you meant before.

 

Yes, having the team benefiting from sticking together around the Kheldian is starting to sound like a REALLY GOOD idea.  And if that means more Kheldians leading teams, I'm all for it.
It's win-win.  I like win-win.

 

:-)

[agentx5]

On 1/5/2020 at 6:57 PM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

interesting idea but this doesnt solve the PB knockback issue directly its just a bandaid

1.  That wasn't the discussion Redlynne and I were having.

 

2. Just FYI... Knockback isn't ALWAYS bad, it's situational.

 

2a. Imperious is a good example of bad knockback. Hitting lots of enemies who are clustered and scattering them makes melee characters want to scream, and even makes AoE-focused blasters or controllers unhappy. That's bad usage. But's it's not the knock itself that's bad, it's the usage & positioning. Going in the middle and scattering enemies everywhere is... just don't... please...

 

2b. I do however get behind the far back ranged enemy who is playing it safe, and single-target hit them with a magnitude 16 to 20 knock to toss them into the fray, hopefully right next to my melee teammates so they only have to turn and hit the enemy I just tossed.

 

3. Knock-up/Knock-down AoE is much better.

 

4. And even better is knock-to, negative-repel, is far better than AoE knockback away from a singular origin point in 3D space.

But that requires a demonstration, so awhile ago I had created a video for this for a different Crytpic game (Champions Online), using another different game (i.e.: Dragon Age II : Force Mage powerset : Pull of the Abyss) but it fell on deaf ears due to lack of developers & money. 

But this video is still helpful to illustrate what good knock power design and knock-to/anti-repel looks like (start from the 2:00 minute mark to get to the point):

 

Knowing how Cryptic codes knocks and repels, it's possible to make a "Pull of the Abyss" effect is just handled as a negative value repel function. (Champs did do it, but they did it for a gamble-box vehicle/mount power... *sigh* But it proved it's possible to use negative-repel values and have it attract to a point instead of repel from).  If there's more "pull"/negative-repel than distance, what you see is what I jokingly call the toilet-bowl orbit/swirl (you can see a little of that in the video above), but that's a minor side-effect and WOULD be something valuable in all team-mob games with large groups of mobs (like CoH TaskForces/StrikeForces).

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by agentx5
clarity

[Monos King]

I've never played a warshade seriously, more of just to collect 50s. 

Why don't warshades suck? I thought they sucked. Can someone offer an explanation or link to clear this one up? You guys seem pretty confident they don't suck, and I would also like to be confident they don't suck.

[boggo2300]

12 minutes ago, monos1 said:

I've never played a warshade seriously, more of just to collect 50s. 

Why don't warshades suck? I thought they sucked. Can someone offer an explanation or link to clear this one up? You guys seem pretty confident they don't suck, and I would also like to be confident they don't suck.

they are a full team by themselves, and if you can get 7 people to come along for the ride, they are literally hell on wheels, though you have to play them completely differently than anything else in the game (except PB but there is still quite a difference between the two) everything you know about fighting in City is different with a Kheld, but when you master how they work, it's so rewarding so fun and so devastating to the enemy it's a whole new game

 

Head to the Kheld sub-forums for more info, it's something really hard to put down cold like this, but if you love learning tricks and clever tactics, then nothing is as rewarding as a Shade (especially those prissy Peacebringers with all their twang noises!)

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

though you have to play them completely differently than anything else in the game

Oh so it was I who sucked. I should have known.

[boggo2300]

17 minutes ago, monos1 said:

Oh so it was I who sucked. I should have known.

no, thats not it, not enjoying or succeeding with a shade has nothing to do with ability, or sucking, it's something you have to discover, you have to change how you think about your character, every other AT in the game has a role, you have to forget that with a Kheld, you need to play not as DPS, not as Control, not as Tank, you have to play as whatever you need that very second, thats where the Kheld dance comes from, if you see a skilled Kheld player they will be in a different form every single time you see them, standing back and watching them fight will leave you dizzy, if you play a Kheld as for instance an Off-Tank, they will do it, but they won't be great at it,  If you play a Kheld as a shapeshifting nightmare they wont just hold aggro, they will hold aggro then explode in the middle of their mob, killing them all and self healing and replenishing their end before squidding up and firing off some nasty kill+slow beams

 

Khelds reward experimenting with how you play, it's not for everyone, and it's not a better way, it's just something that when it gels is AWESOME

Edited January 7, 2020 by boggo2300
Clarity

[agentx5]

20 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

no, thats not it, not enjoying or succeeding with a shade has nothing to do with ability, or sucking, it's something you have to discover, you have to change how you think about your character, every other AT in the game has a role, you have to forget that with a Kheld, you need to play not as DPS, not as Control, not as Tank, you have to play as whatever you need that very second, thats where the Kheld dance comes from, if you see a skilled Kheld player they will be in a different form every single time you see them, standing back and watching them fight will leave you dizzy, if you play a Kheld as for instance an Off-Tank, they will do it, but they won't be great at it,  If you play a Kheld as a shapeshifting nightmare they wont just hold aggro, they will hold aggro then explode in the middle of their mob, killing them all and self healing and replenishing their end before squidding up and firing off some nasty kill+slow beams

 

Khelds reward experimenting with how you play, it's not for everyone, and it's not a better way, it's just something that when it gels is AWESOME

A guide of recommended tactics would help, or a few video clips put together to illustrate.  I read what you are staying, and comprehend the words, but don't fully understand. I guess that's just that I've not seen that in action like you're describing it.  Unfortunate, because it sounds awesome.  This would be good knowledge to share, maybe?

Edited January 8, 2020 by agentx5

[boggo2300]

Just now, agentx5 said:

A guide of recommended tactics would help, or a few video clips put together to illustrate.  I read what you are staying, and comprehend the words, but I don't think I've seen that in action like you're describe it, unfortunately.  This would be good knowledge to share, no?

I'm not a master, I'm competent, and love the challenge, but some of the true masters of the dance I've seen take my breath away,  plus I haven't got any khelds to 50 on HC yet, I've been sick for a few months now and can barely make it through a mish before collapsing, but when I have a bit more energy I will try and rally some of my squiddy brethren and see what we can do

[agentx5]

3 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm not a master, I'm competent, and love the challenge, but some of the true masters of the dance I've seen take my breath away,  plus I haven't got any khelds to 50 on HC yet, I've been sick for a few months now and can barely make it through a mish before collapsing, but when I have a bit more energy I will try and rally some of my squiddy brethren and see what we can do

Sounds epic, if you ever need a fire-blasting sorceress or empathy celestial on your side, hit me up in-game on Torchbearer.  Usually on Thursdays and Saturdays (Friday's are XMoD nights with friends).  Maybe it's just Torchbearer, but I've almost never seen a level 50 Peacebringer or Warshade, especially in raids or iTrials (no idea why not).

 

And yes, I still stand by what Redlynne and I were discussing as possible options for improvement, namely with Cosmic Balance.

Edited January 8, 2020 by agentx5

[boggo2300]

Just now, agentx5 said:

Sounds epic, if you ever need a fire-blasting sorceress or empathy celestial on your side, hit me up in-game on Torchbearer.  Usually on Thursdays and Saturdays (Friday's are XMoD nights with friends).

 

And yes, I still stand by what Redlynne and I were discussing as possible options for improvement, namely with Cosmic Balance.

I'm quite ok with the change to cosmic balance, I think it will help with getting non squids to hang around without breaking the way Khelds work like some of the other changes suggested earlier

 

I went fro 1-50 with my first PB with my wife playing a fire/fire tank, you wouldn't believe how well Fire and Kheld mix 😄 it's a force multiplier both ways 😄

[Microcosm]

Pretty late to this party, but count me in for toggle suppression 120%. The toggles dropping never made any sense and makes lots of powers useless outside of human-only builds. I honestly think it was just easier to code that way originally. I'd be willing to help the homecoming team with this change to help push it along 😉

 

Otherwise khelds are largely fine, though I wouldn't mind some other QoL things like the taunt aura or redlynne's old recommendation of making the pb kb to ku. I definitely cannot get behind removing the crash from light form; the crash was already lessened to make it one of the best armors in the game as it is. I wouldn't mind a small bump to their single target damage, as it's pretty weak, but can live without that given the rest that they have.

[agentx5]

8 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Pretty late to this party, but count me in for toggle suppression 120%. The toggles dropping never made any sense and makes lots of powers useless outside of human-only builds. I honestly think it was just easier to code that way originally. I'd be willing to help the homecoming team with this change to help push it along 😉

 

Otherwise khelds are largely fine, though I wouldn't mind some other QoL things like the taunt aura or redlynne's old recommendation of making the pb kb to ku. I definitely cannot get behind removing the crash from light form; the crash was already lessened to make it one of the best armors in the game as it is. I wouldn't mind a small bump to their single target damage, as it's pretty weak, but can live without that given the rest that they have.

What did you think about the Inherent Power suggestion?

[boggo2300]

25 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Pretty late to this party, but count me in for toggle suppression 120%. The toggles dropping never made any sense and makes lots of powers useless outside of human-only builds. I honestly think it was just easier to code that way originally. I'd be willing to help the homecoming team with this change to help push it along 😉

 

Otherwise khelds are largely fine, though I wouldn't mind some other QoL things like the taunt aura or redlynne's old recommendation of making the pb kb to ku. I definitely cannot get behind removing the crash from light form; the crash was already lessened to make it one of the best armors in the game as it is. I wouldn't mind a small bump to their single target damage, as it's pretty weak, but can live without that given the rest that they have.

I'm not even sure toggle suppression was a thing when Khelds were introduced which is why I think they don't have it (the live Devs seemed terrified to look at Khelds)

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm not even sure toggle suppression was a thing when Khelds were introduced which is why I think they don't have it (the live Devs seemed terrified to look at Khelds)

I don't think it was.  All Toggles dropped when Mezzed or when you changed forms 

 

Now that it is though, it would be a big QOL improvement for Tri forms 

[boggo2300]

Just now, Haijinx said:

I don't think it was.  All Toggles dropped when Mezzed or when you changed forms 

 

Now that it is though, it would be a big QOL improvement for Tri forms 

yup you've convinced me

[Microcosm]

31 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

What did you think about the Inherent Power suggestion?

The one you landed on making it a team effect is interesting. I honestly don't find Dark Sustenance very useful at all because a) Cosmic Balance is better for patching holes in the team and b) at higher levels both khelds can cap their own resistance, a Warshade can cap its damage, and you can't count on getting enough controllers/doms to give meaningful mez protection so you build for other methods anyway. What you are suggesting would give a better inherent experience and make khelds sought out for teammates like SoA or buffers, which could be a good thing. I'm not against it.

 

20 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm not even sure toggle suppression was a thing when Khelds were introduced which is why I think they don't have it (the live Devs seemed terrified to look at Khelds)

I would bet the live devs did little to khelds because the kheld population was low, and the return on dev time would have been very little compared to making something else for other classes. Unfortunately, that became (as it often does) a vicious cycle where kheld issues weren't fixed so fewer people played them. But yeah, toggle suppression did not exist back then in any form to my memory.

[boggo2300]

10 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

The one you landed on making it a team effect is interesting. I honestly don't find Dark Sustenance very useful at all because a) Cosmic Balance is better for patching holes in the team and b) at higher levels both khelds can cap their own resistance, a Warshade can cap its damage, and you can't count on getting enough controllers/doms to give meaningful mez protection so you build for other methods anyway. What you are suggesting would give a better inherent experience and make khelds sought out for teammates like SoA or buffers, which could be a good thing. I'm not against it.

 

I would bet the live devs did little to khelds because the kheld population was low, and the return on dev time would have been very little compared to making something else for other classes. Unfortunately, that became (as it often does) a vicious cycle where kheld issues weren't fixed so fewer people played them. But yeah, toggle suppression did not exist back then in any form to my memory.

OK thats odd because on live, on Triumph at least there were plenty of Khelds, right up to shutdown, we were able to run 8 kheld teams all the time, took maybe at most 30 minutes to rangle together a team of Khelds (there was someone who insisted on getting as many full Kheld teams as possible)

[Psede]

Kheldians suck the fun out of the team, at least most of the ones I’ve played with. I mained a PB for years on live. Would love to see some QOL changes for them such as beefed up inherent and turning KB to KD in their aoes. Right now whenever I get one on the team I give it one mission. If they scatter mobs indiscriminately I leave. I’ve teamed with ONE kheldian since homecoming that didn’t have their obnoxious constant scattering worse than a damn energy blaster.

 

that should be addressed but sadly too many are opposed so it’s just gonna stay the same.

 

yall want Kheldians to get some love. Otherwise many players are going to either not invite them or their teams will just dissolve once the mission ends cause no one wants to explain to the nublet how to play their AT.

 

epic ATs are supposed to be force multipliers - most the hero ones I’ve played with we’re force dividers - making the entire team less efficient.

 

address that and maybe their stigma will change.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Psede

[Doomrider]

4 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

OK thats odd because on live, on Triumph at least there were plenty of Khelds, right up to shutdown, we were able to run 8 kheld teams all the time, took maybe at most 30 minutes to rangle together a team of Khelds (there was someone who insisted on getting as many full Kheld teams as possible)

Just gonna leave this here... @MicrocosmI'm sure remembers Kheldian Fridays on Protector. I was not a Protector native but I transferred my Shade over and met several people I consider good friends and still play/talk to daily. But I agree with Micro, generally speaking the Kheldian population was/is lower thus I feel they got less attention from the devs, which only meant Kheld issues got passed over time and time again.

 

[Doomrider]

3 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Pretty late to this party, but count me in for toggle suppression 120%. The toggles dropping never made any sense and makes lots of powers useless outside of human-only builds. I honestly think it was just easier to code that way originally. I'd be willing to help the homecoming team with this change to help push it along 😉

 

Otherwise khelds are largely fine, though I wouldn't mind some other QoL things like the taunt aura or redlynne's old recommendation of making the pb kb to ku. I definitely cannot get behind removing the crash from light form; the crash was already lessened to make it one of the best armors in the game as it is. I wouldn't mind a small bump to their single target damage, as it's pretty weak, but can live without that given the rest that they have.

I had a wild idea the other day on the topic of toggle suppression... in the event there is some limitation in the code that were to prevent this from being realized, what if instead of suppressing the toggles, the form power toggles themselves could be altered to change the effects of other certain power toggles (Orbiting Death, Inky Aspect for example) while in their respective forms. I'll give an example to illustrate:

Say you had Orbiting Death toggled on your Shade while in human form and you then switched over to Nova; what if instead of the toggle dropping, Nova would change the properties of OD similar to the way Bio Armor's adaptations change aspects of Bio's various toggles depending on which adaptation you had toggled on. Could you not, hypothetically then change the Nova toggle to reduce the damage dealt by OD to 0 and reduce the end usage while in Nova form? Sort of pseudo suppressing the toggle in a sense? 

[boggo2300]

4 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

I had a wild idea the other day on the topic of toggle suppression... in the event there is some limitation in the code that were to prevent this from being realized, what if instead of suppressing the toggles, the form power toggles themselves could be altered to change the effects of other certain power toggles (Orbiting Death, Inky Aspect for example) while in their respective forms. I'll give an example to illustrate:

Say you had Orbiting Death toggled on your Shade while in human form and you then switched over to Nova; what if instead of the toggle dropping, Nova would change the properties of OD similar to the way Bio Armor's adaptations change aspects of Bio's various toggles depending on which adaptation you had toggled on. Could you not, hypothetically then change the Nova toggle to reduce the damage dealt by OD to 0 and reduce the end usage while in Nova form? Sort of pseudo suppressing the toggle in a sense? 

nope no toggles working on shifted forms, thats not a good thing, suppression or detoggles