Instant Healing return to a Toggle power

[xmenlegend]

Back in the day, Instant Healing used to be a toggle power for regen scrappers/stalkers/brutes. Since then, it was turned into a click power with a 10 minute cooldown. I would love to see this power turned into a toggle again to make regen builds more viable. Even if the cooldown was reduced at least by half, that'd be a vast improvement. I just don't feel like this power currently holds a candle to comparable powers like "Rise to the Challenge" in the Willpower set.

 

Maybe I'm just bad at gearing my regen brute (he's only level 32 with no IOs) but I die quite frequently, even with Instant Healing active, so it doesn't exactly seem game breaking to have it on all the time; spike damage will still get me killed.

Edited January 4, 2020 by xmenlegend
added more details

[MTeague]

My Spines/Regen stalker is pretty durable at lvl 29, and does not hesitate to soak the alpha strike for 4-5 man teams.  However, he's also *very* well tricked out with Set IO's for his level. 

 

Buffing /Regen is a little tricky.  A sufficently strong alpha strike will just wipe you.  But anything less than that sufficently strong alpha strike and you can take it INFINITLY.

However.  One way that I think it can and should be buffed, is to give it extreme resistance or perhaps even immunity to Healing Debuffs and Regen Debuffs.  Regen is your whole THING. Same way defense is an /SR scrappers whole THING.  Same way they get Defense Debuff Resistance, I think Regen should be able to shrug off any debuffs to it's Healing or Regen effects.

 

That alone, I would be content with. 

But I'll admit, I wouldn't darn them to heck if they buffed it even more on other fronts.

[Galaxy Brain]

Another Regen thread had a cool idea for Resilience to help with the Alpha problem:

 

Add a stacking Absorb Bonus of say, 1% of your HP a sec, with a cap of 30% of your HP. In combat, this would be whittled away quickly. But between fights, where you can go 30 sec without being hit at all this can add up to a solid layer of defense. Could also be set to only stack up "outside of combat" like how snipes are set. 

 

Anywho, as for the OP suggestion I don't see how it'll hurt.

[Haijinx]

50 minutes ago, xmenlegend said:

 

Maybe I'm just bad at gearing my regen brute (he's only level 32 with no IOs)

This is kind of the problem here

 

Your Brute is nowhere near what a well built IO build is going to look like for Def and Res. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

I don't see how you can make it a toggle at its current Regen value without causing some issues. 

 

However is there a regen value where a toggle would be fine?   Maybe.  

 

[Megajoule]

Oh look, another "Fix Regen" thread.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i had a fotm DM/regen scrapper back in the day, loved it to death then the nerf happened, i was annoyed to be sure but it forced me to try other sets and AT's and im glad i did. Now i have a DM/WP and it plays nostalgically like old school regen. so give that a shot

[Force Redux]

How would porting Sentinel Regen back to the melee ATs perform? Because it's great on sents.

[MTeague]

22 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i had a fotm DM/regen scrapper back in the day, loved it to death then the nerf happened, i was annoyed to be sure but it forced me to try other sets and AT's and im glad i did. Now i have a DM/WP and it plays nostalgically like old school regen. so give that a shot

Maybe some of my viewpoint is because I use /Regen on a Stalker, not a Brute, not a Tank. 

But I honestly think people just have it in their heads that "Regen sucks" without having really played it and seen what it can do.

 

I'm making no attempt to repeated soak an alpha strike for a +4/x8 spawn or even a +2/x8 spawn however.

I suppose it depends on what is your baseline for "it must be able to do X".  Mentally I still have it pegged as "Scrapper/Stalker set", not "Main tank set".

[xmenlegend]

5 hours ago, MTeague said:

Maybe some of my viewpoint is because I use /Regen on a Stalker, not a Brute, not a Tank. 

But I honestly think people just have it in their heads that "Regen sucks" without having really played it and seen what it can do.

 

I'm making no attempt to repeated soak an alpha strike for a +4/x8 spawn or even a +2/x8 spawn however.

I suppose it depends on what is your baseline for "it must be able to do X".  Mentally I still have it pegged as "Scrapper/Stalker set", not "Main tank set".

I think I may remake my guy as a scrapper. I don't think I'll ever be able to tank a +4/x8 group and that's fine, but people are going to see I'm a brute and expect that.

[RCU7115]

I'm not positive but I believe Regen is stronger on a brute.

[boggo2300]

10 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Oh look, another "Fix Regen" thread.

It must be Sunday!

[Haijinx]

Regen did get fixed.  The fix is called Willpower.  The problem is, how do fix Regen without making it more like Willpower? 

 

I don't know. 

 

 

[boggo2300]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Regen did get fixed.  The fix is called Willpower.  The problem is, how do fix Regen without making it more like Willpower? 

 

I don't know. 

 

 

[Lusid]

21 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Another Regen thread had a cool idea for Resilience to help with the Alpha problem:

 

Add a stacking Absorb Bonus of say, 1% of your HP a sec, with a cap of 30% of your HP. In combat, this would be whittled away quickly. But between fights, where you can go 30 sec without being hit at all this can add up to a solid layer of defense. Could also be set to only stack up "outside of combat" like how snipes are set. 

 

Anywho, as for the OP suggestion I don't see how it'll hurt.

I like the idea of the shield, it would function similar to how one of the /regen skills on a sentinel, so easy to implement.

 

Instant healing turning toggle i don't see how it would help tbh. If it's able to be left on it's just yet another +regen toggle. Boring power. May as well just buff integration and call it a day. Multiple toggles doing the same thing is just power fluff where it doesn't need to be. Each power doing it's own unique thing makes for more robust gameplay and builds. Otherwise it's going to behave like the hybrid incarnate powers, where the only benefit there is more control over when it's cooldown takes place. 

 

Based on a regen build a friend of mine put together, regen seems to be in a decent place with the way current sets and enhancements work. Grab a bunch of ancillary defenses (any dominator knows that game) and it lives through some serious punishment. While im not a fan of any set being reliant on ancillaries, it does it's job for what the system allows. The issue i think is that the way regen works makes it function well in a role that doesn't really exist: off-tank. It requires an actual tank to take most of the agro while the off-tank picks up stragglers. But the issue there is: Why use this instead of just another competent tank. For regen to work as well as other armor sets, you'd need a way to stagger damage so your regen can compensate. The monk class from WoW had an interesting mechanic that would work very well for a regen class. Stagger took any damage you take and stretched it out over x seconds. Basically turned all incoming damage into a DoT debuff and you had other abilities that could wipe the stored damage or stretch it further. something like that could work well, but i have a strong feeling it'd be too strong. 

 

Edit: You know, on second thought making it behave like hybrid's toggle, where you can deactivate it early and control when it goes on cooldown isn't a bad idea. Simple change that gives control over when you have your powers. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Lusid

[SwitchFade]

Nerf Regen!!!111one! ;D

[boggo2300]

16 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Nerf Regen!!!111one! ;D

maybe just make it work in reverse?

[xmenlegend]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:11 AM, Force Redux said:

How would porting Sentinel Regen back to the melee ATs perform? Because it's great on sents.

I'm also curious about this.

[Galaxy Brain]

31 minutes ago, xmenlegend said:

I'm also curious about this.

Lets compare....

 

I'm gonna throw out some napkin math vs a magical DPS turret where the characters have infinite time to work their magic.

 

Scrapper at lvl 50, no enhancements:

 

Passive:

1339 Max HP / 1874.5 with Dull Pain.

Base Regen with Fast Healing, Health, and Integration - 20.36 hps / 28.51 hps with DP

Resilience gives 9.4% res vs all damage which is nice, effectively increasing your HP / Healing by that amount too

 

Active:

Dull Pain has a ~33% uptime, also heals 40% of your HP instantly

Reconstruction has a 60s cooldown and instantly heals 25% hp (either 334.75 or 468.625 hp with DP)

Instant Healing has a pitiful ~14% uptime. While active, your regen jumps to - 65 hps / 90.99 hps with DP for 90s, which over triples your base healing

Revive is.... just for when you die, but it does bounce you back with near max HP.

MoG is also... MoG. Pop it and be godmode for 15 sec 🤷‍♂️

 

Math:

If we were to sit the Scrapper in front of the magic DPS turret that fires non stop DPS, we can observe the following:

• 100 incoming DPS, which should shred the scrapper up in 13.39 seconds
• 100 DPS -> 90.6 DPS from Resilience
• 90.6 DPS - 20.36 regen = 70.24 DPS
• Recon can be seen as 25% HP (334.75) / 60s, or 5.58 regen -> 64.66 DPS
• Dull Pain similarly can be seen as 535.4 hp / 360s, or ~1.5 regen -> 63.16 DPS
  • With it's uptime, we could see DP as effectively a 13.2%  HP increase... changing our values:
  • 23.05 base regen + (468.625/60) = 7.81 Reconstruction regen + 1.5 DP regen --> 32.36 effective regen --> 58.24 DPS vs 1515.75 HP
• Instant Healing while active will add about 50.52 extra regen for 90s while its active, or 82.88 hps total all things added up -> 7.72 dps
  • If we use the uptime though, this becomes 7.07 extra regen, 39.43 -> 51.17 DPS
  •  
  • Final DPS taken = 51.17, time to defeat = 29.62 seconds
  •  
• MoG has a 6.25% uptime, which if we want to treat it the same vs the magic DPS turret would = 4.46 Def/Res to pretty much everything over infinite time.
  • We'll say the defense lowers incoming DPS (in a vacuum) by 4.46% -> 95.4
  • 9.4 + 4.46 res = 13.86 res -> 82.18 DPS to start
  •  
  • Final DPS taken = 42.75, time to defeat = 35.46 seconds

 

 

 

 

 

Sentinel at lvl 50, no enhancements:

 

Passive:

1494.14 Max HP thanks to Dismiss Pain.

Base Regen with Fast Healing, Health, and Integration - 22.72 hps 

Resilience gives 8.8% res vs all damage which is nice, effectively increasing your HP / Healing by that amount too

Instant Regeneration is a big factor here, as while active it gives you a layer of 5% Absorb every 3 sec that lasts for 3 sec.

This is equal to 74.71 / 3 sec, or 24.9 Absorb/sec. We will assume the latter when we put it in front of the DPS turret. 

 

Active:

Reconstruction has a 60s cooldown and instantly heals 25% hp (373.535), this can equal 6.23 extra regen

Second Wind is a big X Factor... but it has a 250s base recharge compared to Dull Pain's 360 and Instant Healing's 650. Objectively speaking, this could be a huge deal vs Burst Damage combined with Reconstruction.

MoG grants 66.5% Def/Res for Sents, which at the same 6.25% uptime = 4.16 Def/Res

 

Math:

If we were to sit the Sentinel in front of the same magic DPS turret that fires non stop DPS, we can observe the following:

• 100 incoming DPS, which should shred the Sentinel up in 14.94 seconds
• 100 DPS -> 91.2 DPS from Resilience
• That 91.2 DPS is now directly negated by the 24.9 Absorb/Sec from Insta Regen -> 66.3 DPS
• 66.3 DPS - 22.72 regen, - 6.23 Reconstruction Regen = 37.35 DPS
•  
• Final DPS taken = 37.35, time to defeat = 40.00 seconds
•  
• MoG  = 4.16 Def/Res to pretty much everything over infinite time.
  • We'll say the defense lowers incoming DPS (in a vacuum) by 4.16% -> 95.84
  • 8.8 + 4.16 res = 12.96 res -> 83.42 DPS to start
  • 83.42 - 24.9 absorb -> 58.52 DPS
  • - 28.95 effective regen = 29.57 DPS
  •  
  • Final DPS taken = 29.57, time to defeat = 50.53 seconds

 

This is without the benefit of Second Wind even factored in, but at a basic level it looks like in this hypothetical scenario the Sentinel is about 35 - 43% tougher than the Scrapper, without using one of it's heals!

 

 

I'm gonna factor in some basic SO slotting here to see where the values end up with 3 recharges / etc in the mix...

 

I have to double the incoming DPS to 200 since Sentinel Regen was immortal vs 100 dps.... going to ignore MoG too because complex

 

Scrapper - Reduces 200 DPS down to 71.28 DPS, time to defeat = 25.99 seconds

 

Sentinel - Reduces 200 DPS down to 30.16 DPS, time to defeat = 54.1 seconds

 

Scrapper with Sentinel Regen:

Scrapinel Regen - Reduces 200 DPS down to 19.59 DPS, time to defeat = 92.54 seconds

 

The major differences here are that Absorb Shield taking away from damage to your HP directly, on top of a passive +HP.

[Galaxy Brain]

Now, the above is not a real world example and with higher global recharge the Scrapper might pull ahead but is still limited by the longer cooldowns on DP and IH compared to the faster Second Wind on sentinels. In the moment when the clicks are up, the scrapper may pull ahead as well.

 

What may make the biggest difference is the Absorb Shield that Sentinels get that acts as an additional layer of defense. Attacks get resisted / miss, and then have to chew through that layer before actually hitting you which provides a ton of mitigation for the regen to work underneath. If IH was changed just to Instant Regen it'd be a gamechanger.

[xmenlegend]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Now, the above is not a real world example and with higher global recharge the Scrapper might pull ahead but is still limited by the longer cooldowns on DP and IH compared to the faster Second Wind on sentinels. In the moment when the clicks are up, the scrapper may pull ahead as well.

 

What may make the biggest difference is the Absorb Shield that Sentinels get that acts as an additional layer of defense. Attacks get resisted / miss, and then have to chew through that layer before actually hitting you which provides a ton of mitigation for the regen to work underneath. If IH was changed just to Instant Regen it'd be a gamechanger.

Thank you so much for all the info. I'm speechless. Do you have any builds you've saved for regen scrappers? I'd love to see what you've put together.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, xmenlegend said:

Thank you so much for all the info. I'm speechless. Do you have any builds you've saved for regen scrappers? I'd love to see what you've put together.

Honestly, I don't. 😅

 

I just thought of whipping that up given that IIRC I haven't seen anyone make a direct comparison yet. I do think that Instant Regen on sentinels is probably overall better than Instant Healing as it stands now due to sheer uptime + Layering defenses, which Regen loves.

[Leogunner]

My Kat/Regen is very durable even without Divine Avalanche.  He occasionally does bite it when biting off more than he can chew and I don't get the chance to react, but when he hits Dull Pain + Instant Healing, he's hard to keep hurt...and all that was before he started putting sets in.

 

Now?  He has about 28%def to ranged and AoE, like 8% to melee, and around the 30% resistance to most damage types with like 45% resistance to smashing and leathal.  The build isn't meant to maximize, but it is meant to enhance performance while adhering to concept.  He's pretty fun to play, tbh and I regret rerolling my Elec/Regen stalker into Elec/Bio.  It doesn't fit the concept either.

[Leogunner]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:57 AM, MTeague said:

My Spines/Regen stalker is pretty durable at lvl 29, and does not hesitate to soak the alpha strike for 4-5 man teams.  However, he's also *very* well tricked out with Set IO's for his level. 

 

Buffing /Regen is a little tricky.  A sufficently strong alpha strike will just wipe you.  But anything less than that sufficently strong alpha strike and you can take it INFINITLY.

However.  One way that I think it can and should be buffed, is to give it extreme resistance or perhaps even immunity to Healing Debuffs and Regen Debuffs.  Regen is your whole THING. Same way defense is an /SR scrappers whole THING.  Same way they get Defense Debuff Resistance, I think Regen should be able to shrug off any debuffs to it's Healing or Regen effects.

 

That alone, I would be content with. 

But I'll admit, I wouldn't darn them to heck if they buffed it even more on other fronts.

I actually think Regen should get resistance to most debuffs.  It should just be "the regulator" set.  Debuffing it's defense should be able to be resisted so you just have base.  Defense or -Recover or -Movement aren't just numbers, they are effects that affect you physically, be it tearing holes in your armor, rewiring your synapses, cutting your Achilles' tendon, etc.  These are things you should be able to recover from and resist if your body is constantly regenerating. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Super reflexes is also better on sents too......