Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[Captain Powerhouse]

The following is a list of patch changes since the last Pineapple patch. This thread should had been up yesterday, my apologies on the delay.

 

• Tanker self-damage scale reverted to the same values as live.
• Removed the text in Lightning Clap that said it ignored arc buffs. The power is a sphere.
• Burn (the up front AoE) should not ignore radius buffs.
• Burn (the patch) should ignore radius buffs.
• The following tanker and brute powers should now accept regular Taunt Enhancements:
• Oppressive Gloom, Cloak of Fear, Burn (note that burn patches don't taunt, only the up-front damage does.)
• Spines: Spine Burst> No longer ignores Radius buffs.
• Spines: Quills > Now ignore Radius buffs.
• Lowered the per-teammate bonus to Fury gain, as well as the range required for the bonus.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[aethereal]

Could someone (CP or other) note the diff between current Pineapple and current Live, in addition to the first message listing of diff between current Pineapple and previous Pineapple?  It's getting hard for me as someone who reads these conversations but doesn't follow them obsessively to stack up all the changes.

[Captain Powerhouse]

For now, the focused threads contain difference from last patch.

For difference from live, look at the full patch thread (note that the notes above need to be edited into that thread too, ill do that update soon)

 

Edit: The Jan 6 thread is now updated.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[siolfir]

Just for reference, here are the relevant patch notes from the previous patch, with quick edits - note that this has not been checked against anything and my additions are in red:

---

Tank Updates [Experimental Changes]

 

Modifiers 

• Tanker: Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95
• Tanker Self Damage Modifier (Controls Build Up) lowered from 1.00 to 0.75 (they still should do more damage than before due to higher base damage modifiers.) 
• Bruise has been removed from T1 powers.
• Brute : Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal. (note: both are 0.75)
• Epic Pools: All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers (note: this means no change in damage from Live for both ATs)
• Tanker damage cap increased to 500% (from 400%)
• Brute damage cap lowered to 700% (from 775%)
• Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. 
  • Most cones are now 10 target cap. 
  • Most PBAoE are now 16 target cap.
  • Tanker now gets an inherent buff to the radius of AoE attacks and arc of cones.
    • +50% for sphere attacks.
    • +100% for cones 
    • Some powers are unaffected by this buff. This is noted on the power description.

Brute Fury Generation

• Hitting AVs no longer gives bonus Fury, but Fury generation for attacking has been increased in a variety of ways.
• Brute Fury generation now takes into account the cast time of the attack for successful hits.
  • Any attack slower than brawl will now generate bonus Fury if it lands a hit.
• Brutes now get bonus fury generation in teams, the larger the team, the larger the bonus. (still here, but reduced as of this patch)
• Fury now takes 10 seconds without attacking to start its accelerated decay, instead of 5 seconds.
• The goal of these changes is to improve Fury generation in teams when the Brute is not the only brute, or is in the company of another tanking AT.
• To help debug these changes, the combat spam now shows +Fury and -Fury numbers.
  • Note that this is a temporary change and will be removed regardless if these changes remain or get rolled back.

Gauntlet

• Is now applied via a global proc. Any single target power that takes accuracy enhancements will trigger an AoE taunt. Every AoE power that takes accuracy enhancements will taunt the enemies it hit.
• Radius is now the same for all attacks (10ft, 5 targets max)
• Taunt scale is now 10% higher than Brute's
• Brute PunchVoke is now also applied via a global proc. Any power that either inflicts damage or takes accuracy enhancements will be able to punch-voke.)

 
Power Levels

To improve Tanker AoE capability during level up progression, the following powers had their acquisition levels changed:

• Battle Axe > Whirling Axe = 20, Swoop = 28
• Martial Arts > Dragon Tail = 20, Focus Chi = 28, Crippling Axe Kick = 34
• Stone Melee> Tremor = 28, Hurl Boulder = 35 
• War Mace > Whirling Mace = 20, Clobber = 28

Taunt Auras

• Brute and Tanker Ice Armor powers no longer have built-in Taunt, they are now instead covered by the inherent global proc.
• The following Taunt Auras are now all scale 1 Taunt (approximately 13.6s at level 50): 
  • Invincibility 
  • Against All Odds 
  • Rise to the Challenge (Brute and Tank only)

---

 

So is it too early to say "push it live" yet?

Edited January 7, 2020 by siolfir
disclaimer, color-coding edits, question at bottom

[Auroxis]

Sorry but as it feels like my feedback is being ignored, I will no longer participate in these tests and discussions.

[siolfir]

So, with these changes in place in time for the stress test...

...if the test goes well, can we take the experimental tag off of the changes?

[Super Atom]

Tankers aren't even bad they just (at end tier) fall a bit short to brutes because of damage preference. AOE changes? great. A little boost to damage? sure why not. You should be focusing on finding more things like the AOE increase though. Utility should be why tankers shine, not just damage buffs and brute nerfs.

 

 

Nerfs are bad unless something is clearly broken OP.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Super Atom

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Nerfs are bad unless something is clearly broken OP.

I can think of nothing in the game more brokenly OP than the Brute damage cap.

[Super Atom]

43 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I can think of nothing in the game more brokenly OP than the Brute damage cap.

You mean that thing they can't reach ever on their own or even close to? Brutes do less damage than tanks base and less damage than stalkers/scrappers in general. They have a high potential for damage sure but realistically you will never reach damage cap on your own, not even close. Unless you have a tray of reds in your back pocket every mob. How exactly is that "broken"

 

Also, im not against lowering it like they did because again you never got there anyway. It'll go completely unnoticed by nearly every player in most situations. My thing is why are they even touching brutes, brutes aren't the problem. Tanks needed love and even the devs knew it and (again) the AOE increase is a good direction.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Super Atom

[Coyote]

15 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

They have a high potential for damage sure but realistically you will never reach damage cap on your own, not even close.  ...  How exactly is that "broken"

 

I'm not arguing for or against Brute damage cap being broken... but this argument here is unreasonable. It makes no sense.

If Vengeance gave every teammember +1000% to every buff for the remainder of the mission, the argument "you couldn't reach that on your own" wouldn't prevent it from being brokenly OP.

If an ally buff were similarly ridiculously powerful, the same argument wouldn't prevent it from being OP.

If Kheld teaming bonuses were 10x as strong as they are now, they would be OP even though they obviously require teammates to work.

 

The game has some powers and abilities that are designed around teaming, and the argument that something CAN'T be broken merely because it's very unlikely to happen in a soloing situation is not an argument that makes sense in this game.

 

To argue that a power that requires teaming should then be stronger than a comparable one that doesn't, makes sense. Limitations on power use are balanced by making the power stronger when it CAN be used. So, to argue that a damage cap that requires teaming to be reached is harder to become broken than a damage cap that a character can reach on their own, would make a reasonable argument. But an argument that something can't be broken because it requires teaming is not a reasonable argument except in a game where teaming is either not allowed or extremely rare.

[Super Atom]

What you're suggesting is dangerous. Implying that something is OP because of teammates will immediately make every ability need a nerf. "Well SR can be soft capped to every defense and hit resistance cap because of their teammates! better nerf SR". Your argument is way worse. Also on a side note, Veng is 35% damage. Thats not even close to damage cap and of course with a straw man like "Well if brawl could one shot AV's it'd be OP" it's easy to try and dismiss people.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Super Atom

[Super Homer]

Counter-argument: Scrappers already are "controlled" by having lower resist caps. In most cases, you can either buff damage to a practically high level, or you can buff survivability to a that level, but not both. Brute, however, gets to get to and beyond scrapper and blaster level damage via buffs, while also being buffable to near tank levels (hell, to the point where they are effectively as immortal as a tank.)

[siolfir]

38 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

You mean that thing they can't reach ever on their on or even close to?

It's actually fairly common in farming situations; the influx of inspirations that can be converted to reds and popped to make room for more means pretty much every AT can hit the cap fairly easily as long as they can survive the aggro. Brutes have a bit further to go to hit the cap, but each one you pop until you get capped makes the next one come that much faster.

 

Do I think that going from 775% to 700% is a huge issue? No more than I thought going from 850% to 775% was.

 

Edit: the reported purpose behind the lowered cap was to put a capped Brute's damage below that of a capped Blaster or Scrapper when using the same scale attack: 7 * 0.75 is 5.25, 5 * 1.125 is 5.625; at the old cap a Brute would be at 5.8125.

Edited January 7, 2020 by siolfir

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

It's actually fairly common in farming situations; the influx of inspirations that can be converted to reds and popped to make room for more means pretty much every AT can hit the cap fairly easily as long as they can survive the aggro. Brutes have a bit further to go to hit the cap, but each one you pop until you get capped makes the next one come that much faster.

 

Do I think that going from 775% to 700% is a huge issue? No more than I thought going from 850% to 775% was.

haha farming is just...farming. You can't really take farming into account TBH. With farming yeah yikes...

 

3 minutes ago, unknown said:

Counter-argument: Scrappers already are "controlled" by having lower resist caps. In most cases, you can either buff damage to a practically high level, or you can buff survivability to a that level, but not both. Brute, however, gets to get to and beyond scrapper and blaster level damage via buffs, while also being buffable to near tank levels (hell, to the point where they are effectively as immortal as a tank.)

Scrappers will still reliably do more damage and if you count IO's (which you shouldn't for most balance things) they can be beefy as well and...with the same team buffs you're referring pretty much any AT can be unkillable god because that's how teammate buffs work which again is pretty much why you can't start an argument about a power by going "Well with the right team buffs..." because spoilers, with a FF/Sonic/Kinetics on team nobody is dying except the mobs and in seconds. Thats just how CoH is.

[Replacement]

@Super Atom please read prior threads about why this minor nerf is necessary.

 

If you really believe players won't hit this cap, then you won't have a problem with the new value.

 

Meanwhile, the alternative is giving Blasters a 90% damage resist cap (and probably a boost to the strength of their epic armors too).

Edited January 7, 2020 by Replacement

[Moka]

What does self damage mean? Is that the damage % scale or the modifiers?

[Replacement]

Just now, Moka said:

What does self damage mean? Is that the damage % scale or the modifiers?

Yes. Build Up, etc

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

@Super Atom please read prior threads about why this minor nerf is necessary.

 

If you really believe players won't hit this cap, then you won't have a problem with the new value.

 

Meanwhile, the alternative is giving Blasters a 90% damage cap (and probably a boost to the strength of their epic armors too).

I don't have issue with the new cap and unless I'm just reading their patch note wrongs? Which tbh is probably likely because they word stuff weirdly, did they not just lower fury generation?

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

haha farming is just...farming. You can't really take farming into account TBH. With farming yeah yikes...

True, but the point was that for short periods you can hit the damage cap solo with a Brute using inspirations - low long that period lasts varies but is extended greatly by frequency of kills, which is the essence of farming. I know I've damage capped a Brute before IOs when people were still using Shivans/Nukes for the last mission of the RSF, and the damage cap was higher then than it is now.

 

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Which tbh is probably likely because they word stuff weirdly, did they not just lower fury generation?

You're not reading it wrong from the OP, but the overall patch notes actually increase Fury generation compared to what's live now (as long as the attack hits) and it takes longer to start the fast decay. The idea is you will generate more Fury with the combination of the last patch and this one, you will just cap out on damage faster.

Edited January 7, 2020 by siolfir

[Replacement]

Lowered from previous build, @Super Atom.

 

Basically, there were crappy things about Fury that didn't make sense to fix when they are already the dominant AT. 

 

Since we're trying to give Tankers a party slot, it was a good time to smooth out fury. Looks the previous build overshot this some and went from qol to buff.

 

Please test numbers if you have a lot of brute experience and let us know how it feels compared to Live.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

True, but the point was that for short periods you can hit the damage cap solo with a Brute using inspirations - low long that period lasts varies but is extended greatly by frequency of kills, which is the essence of farming. I know I've damage capped a Brute before IOs when people were still using Shivans/Nukes for the last mission of the RSF, and the damage cap was higher then than it is now.

 

You're not reading it wrong from the OP, but the overall patch notes actually increase Fury generation compared to what's live now (as long as the attack hits) and it takes longer to start the fast decay. The idea is you will generate more Fury with the combination of the last patch and this one, you will just cap out on damage faster.

Ah ok, thanks!

 

also, I farm enough and i can't say i have ever kept up having 10+ reds on at all time. 1-3 sure but not 10+ and again thats an extreme situation and also why i said " Unless you have a tray of reds in your back pocket every mob. " 😛

 

 

[Wavicle]

Any mention of farming or self capping damage is a distraction.  The discussion is about Brute and Tank relative performance IN TEAMS in actual content.

Edited January 7, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

also, I farm enough and i can't say i have ever kept up having 10+ reds on at all time. 1-3 sure but not 10+ and again thats an extreme situatio

The farming thread in the Guides section has some binds/macros for converting everything to reds. Combine that with turning off some of the types so they don't clutter the tray and it's pretty easy to keep a lot of them (especially if you set to combine every time you hit something in your tray).

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Any mention of farming or self capping damage is a distraction.  The discussion is about Brute and Tank relative performance IN TEAMS in actual content.

I agree... but I'm at work near the end of the day and looking for distractions. My fault, I'll stop now.

[Replacement]

5 minutes ago, siolfir said:

You're not reading it wrong from the OP, but the overall patch notes actually increase Fury generation compared to what's live now (as long as the attack hits) and it takes longer to start the fast decay. The idea is you will generate more Fury with the combination of the last patch and this one, you will just cap out on damage faster.

I want to emphasize that the point of the Fury changes are not to increase Fury generation as much as increase its consistency.

 

With these changes, you should have fury build at more or less the same rate regardless of party role, animation speed, or party size.

 

And as a QoL benefit, be able to chill a little more between spawns (my personal brute stumbling block).