Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[BlackHearted]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

If you are playing a 50 Brute there is no way you should be having trouble with lowbie tankers pulling aggro from you unless they are taunting and you are not.

Either way, your idea that you need to reroll is ridiculous hyperbole.  Brutes tank just fine.

I completely agree as a 50 brute I shouldn’t have trouble holding agro over a lowbie tank... yet that is exactly what’s happening, even with me over using taunt to test it out after realizing there was a difference.

 

your opinion about my preference being ridiculous is noted, however as the person who would be playing, my preference to be able to hold agro is /really/ important to me ...so much so that I’m definitely going to  reroll my main as a tank even though I have a full purpled out all T4 lvl 50 brute version of that character already.... so I want to make sure I understand the intentions of these changes as that’s going to be a lot of work to re-grind to vet 50.

[SwitchFade]

40 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Clearly YOU have never needed to pull agro off a tank as a brute, but for ME it’s a pretty regular occurrence that I’m teamed with a tank(AT) that needs someone else to manage agro for them because they’re still leveling or learning.  

 

And is there a /reason/ you are saying tanks should be able to out agro brutes? Because it never was that way before and it was working just fine when both ATs were teamed together.  I keep hearing people say it /should/ be this way but like as an opinion .....why should it be that way? More specifically why should it be /changed/ to be this way ?

 

Im just trying to understand these changes and if they’re permanent because it means I have to reroll my main character as a tank AT now and figure out what to do instead of regen sense tanks don’t have regen..

 

Tanks have always had better aggro management capability. As an invuln tank, I could always walk up beside any brute and start aggro stripping them. Invuln could aggro strip other tanks, in fact, previously. In rare occasions I sometimes momentarily lost aggro for a few seconds to a blaster, but the MOB would always revert. If a brute was using taunt and punchvoke and auras, back on live, and was there before me, they could keep aggro of certain targets, but my taunt mag and duration would eventually supercede that and I would attain aggro. This is by design, because tanks, in an SO environment, are much more survivable than a brute. Brutes can become as tanky, but it takes investment.

 

In essence, although brutes and dwarf form can "tank," and some scraps, an actual tanker will do this better, by design, as has always been and rightly should be. The AT is the primary Tank, so it should tank better than all other tank type tanks.

 

Tanker tank will out tank other tank tankiness.

 

Why? Because we are tankers and we sacrifice other things to get it.

[SwitchFade]

36 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

I completely agree as a 50 brute I shouldn’t have trouble holding agro over a lowbie tank... yet that is exactly what’s happening, even with me over using taunt to test it out after realizing there was a difference.

 

your opinion about my preference being ridiculous is noted, however as the person who would be playing, my preference to be able to hold agro is /really/ important to me ...so much so that I’m definitely going to  reroll my main as a tank even though I have a full purpled out all T4 lvl 50 brute version of that character already.... so I want to make sure I understand the intentions of these changes as that’s going to be a lot of work to re-grind to vet 50.

To verify this as a bug, or broken, we need specifics.

 

What sets? What map? What io's? What levels?what auras? What MOBs?

 

There may be a bug, so give as much info as possible. But I will tell you, a lvl 25 so'd invuln tanker will have his full aggro kit, so he's gonna start stripping your aggro, cuz invinc+attacks.

 

Tank mag+duration. Now, pre-invinc? Now you have a case. Another example: Earth tank mud pots (I think) will always out aggro a brute aura.

 

To find a bug though, give us details and specifics so we can investigate.

Edited February 21, 2020 by SwitchFade

[BlackHearted]

15 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Tanks have always had better aggro management capability. As an invuln tank, I could always walk up beside any brute and start aggro stripping them. Invuln could aggro strip other tanks, in fact, previously. In rare occasions I sometimes momentarily lost aggro for a few seconds to a blaster, but the MOB would always revert. If a brute was using taunt and punchvoke and auras, back on live, and was there before me, they could keep aggro of certain targets, but my taunt mag and duration would eventually supercede that and I would attain aggro. This is by design, because tanks, in an SO environment, are much more survivable than a brute. Brutes can become as tanky, but it takes investment.

 

In essence, although brutes and dwarf form can "tank," and some scraps, an actual tanker will do this better, by design, as has always been and rightly should be. The AT is the primary Tank, so it should tank better than all other tank type tanks.

 

Tanker tank will out tank other tank tankiness.

 

Why? Because we are tankers and we sacrifice other things to get it.

Starting to think I don’t have a proper understanding of taunt mag..is there a place the numbers for magnitude of taunt are layed  out at?

 

and just to be clear: it is NOT intentional that tank punchvoke  hold agro over brute taunt+punchvoke?  Because thats the problem I experienced that I thought was a bug... with the tank NOT taunting I still couldn’t agro strip on my SS/regen brute. If this is unintentional I’ll definitely experiment and try to get specifics to report.

 

ps thank you for the replies... I know this isn’t an important issue to most people, but it means a lot to me that I have a working understanding of how agro (particularly agro striping) works.

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Starting to think I don’t have a proper understanding of taunt mag..is there a place the numbers for magnitude of taunt are layed  out at?

 

and just to be clear: it is NOT intentional that tank punchvoke  hold agro over brute taunt+punchvoke?  Because thats the problem I experienced that I thought was a bug... with the tank NOT taunting I still couldn’t agro strip on my SS/regen brute. If this is unintentional I’ll definitely experiment and try to get specifics to report.

 

ps thank you for the replies... I know this isn’t an important issue to most people, but it means a lot to me that I have a working understanding of how agro (particularly agro striping) works.

I'm not sure of the exact math, but I know that taunt is a multiplier that acts on the threat caused by attacks, controls, etc. The higher the magnitude, the bigger the multiplier.  I assume Archetype specific threat modifiers are somewhere in that equation as well.

Let me just say, if your goal is to have a hard hitting toon that tanks, your brute will do just fine.

If your priority is to be the best aggro magnet in the game then you SHOULD reroll as a tanker, because that is what they are and always have been.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

And Willpower, Bio, and Radiation should all work if you want to be a Regen and Self Healing based tank.

[Haijinx]

Taunt doesn't work well if you don't also do some damage. 

 

Tankers also get AOE taunts in every attack.  

 

And not all taunt auras are created equal.  Invincibility for /invuls is far superior to RTTC for WP for example. 

 

But this can be mitigated easily enough.  If you are a Brute and some underleveled Tanker is on your team that keeps dying, make sure you go first and absorb all alphas.  

 

This shouldn't come up often, as Tankers are tougher than Brutes after all. 

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

not all taunt auras are created equal.  Invincibility for /invuls is far superior to RTTC for WP for example. 

I'm pretty sure this is no longer true, as normalizing aura taunts was part of the recent patch.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wavicle

[Haijinx]

Just now, Wavicle said:

I'm pretty sure this is no longer true, as normalizing aura taunts was part of the recent patch.

There was some debate earlier as to whether that happened exactly, I thought?

 

Also as to what normalized means.  For example Invul for Tankers had a 17 sec duration (ish)  while a number had 13.6 sec.  Before even getting to the really low ones like WP (if not normalized yet)

 

That and since we are in the Anecdotal realm of Anecdotal Underleveled Tankers stealing aggro from a Brute somewhen ..  maybe this event took place before any recent normalization?

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

There was some debate earlier as to whether that happened exactly, I thought?

 

Also as to what normalized means.  For example Invul for Tankers had a 17 sec duration (ish)  while a number had 13.6 sec.  Before even getting to the really low ones like WP (if not normalized yet)

 

That and since we are in the Anecdotal realm of Anecdotal Underleveled Tankers stealing aggro from a Brute somewhen ..  maybe this event took place before any recent normalization?

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that all Punchvoke and Aura Taunt abilities now function via the global taunt proc which should be the same for all powersets (though I guess it varies by AT).

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wavicle

[BlackHearted]

25 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I'm not sure of the exact math, but I know that taunt is a multiplier that acts on the threat caused by attacks, controls, etc. The higher the magnitude, the bigger the multiplier.  I assume Archetype specific threat modifiers are somewhere in that equation as well.

Let me just say, if your goal is to have a hard hitting toon that tanks, your brute will do just fine.

If your priority is to be the best aggro magnet in the game then you SHOULD reroll as a tanker, because that is what they are and always have been.

Do you (or anyone else reading for that matter ) know where I could look up the exact math ? That would really help me.

 

I am hoping there is a way set up my SS/regen to be able to agro strip when both I and the tank I’m attempting to strip want that to happen...I was unable to do this in game earlier and if there’s a way to affect the mag of my taunt on my brute or something that would be good to know about... at this point I’m very confused... if I need to reroll as a tank that’s a totally doable thing for me I just don’t want to start farming until I have these agro specifics figured out.

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

There was some debate earlier as to whether that happened exactly, I thought?

 

Also as to what normalized means.  For example Invul for Tankers had a 17 sec duration (ish)  while a number had 13.6 sec.  Before even getting to the really low ones like WP (if not normalized yet)

 

That and since we are in the Anecdotal realm of Anecdotal Underleveled Tankers stealing aggro from a Brute somewhen ..  maybe this event took place before any recent normalization?

 This was this morning at 1-5 am est.

Edited February 22, 2020 by BlackHearted

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Do you (or anyone else reading for that matter ) know where I could look up the exact math ? That would really help me.

 

I am hoping there is a way set up my SS/regen to be able to agro strip when both I and the tank I’m attempting to strip want that to happen...I was unable to do this in game earlier and if there’s a way to affect the mag of my taunt on my brute or something that would be good to know about... at this point I’m very confused... if I need to reroll as a tank that’s a totally doable thing for me I just don’t want to start farming until I have these agro specifics figured out.

 This way this morning at 1-5 am est.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Taunt_(Status_Effect)

Keep in mind this is somewhat old information, so I don't know if the recent changes have made this obsolete:
 

Taunt works by multiplying the Threat generated by attacks, with the multiplier dependent on the AT in question, the duration of the Taunt, and the character's proximity to the enemy. In 2007, Castle created a thread (since lost to forum purge) revealing this fact, as opposed to the commonly accepted explanation (and description in the game documentation) that Taunt simply overrode all Threat.

The Taunt power (and Confront, Calling of the Wolf, Warrior's Challenge, Challenge, and Provoke) counts as an attack, so that hate may be gained with just the damage-less Taunt. Attacks made after the Taunt is applied have their Threat multiplied by 1,000 * Duration (where Duration is the duration of the Taunt effect).

AT modifiers, damage dealt, and proximity to the enemy affect the amount of Threat generated. While a Tanker or Brute should normally be able to build Threat much faster than any other Archetype (especially with the help of the Taunt in all of their attacks), Castle's post was prompted by Issue 11 testing with a Tanker using Taunt that was unable to pull enemies away from a Willpower Scrapper using Rise to the Challenge. The combination of the Scrapper's enemy proximity, pulsing Taunt, and constant damage far outdid the ranged Taunt by the Tanker. After further testing, Ghost Widow followed the code logic to discover that the game's internal documentation on the subject (supporting the "Taunt overrides Threat" argument) was incorrect.

[Wavicle]

Also:

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Threat

Though I imagine we STILL don't know all these variables:

 

While the complete formula isn't known, nor do players know most of the minimums or maximums, Castle posted the following in a thread on the Official Forums:

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

Edited February 22, 2020 by Wavicle

[BlackHearted]

Sooo This is a thing were no one really knows exactly how it works?  Would it just be easier to set up a brute and a tank on the test server and trial and error test sense there’s apparently no way to just do the math not knowing the full formula? 

[SwitchFade]

In a meeting I'll reply later with exact working, but in essence the multipliers for tanks are higher. Their threat level and their mag are higher. They get AoE on punch. They will always 1:1 out aggro anything. It's built into the AT you can't build a brute to out aggro a tank, if the tank is above lvl 25 and has even level SO's.

 

Think of it like this: blasters cannot Be out damaged 1:1 build, in an SO environment, because they have significantly higher multipliers. The same attack at 100 base damage on anyone else is not nearly as high as on a a blaster.

 

If you want to build a brute to aggro strip a normally built tank, the best you could achieve is  maybe stripping aggro by a ratio of 30%.

 

Math later, sorry, meeting.

Edited February 22, 2020 by SwitchFade

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

There was some debate earlier as to whether that happened exactly, I thought?

 

Also as to what normalized means.  For example Invul for Tankers had a 17 sec duration (ish)  while a number had 13.6 sec.  Before even getting to the really low ones like WP (if not normalized yet)

 

That and since we are in the Anecdotal realm of Anecdotal Underleveled Tankers stealing aggro from a Brute somewhen ..  maybe this event took place before any recent normalization?

The first Page 4 release candidate included a line about normalizing the Taunt auras:

Specifically:

Quote

Taunt Auras

• The following Taunt Auras now have a built-in scale 1 Taunt (approximately 13.6s at level 50), as the global Gauntlet / PunchVoke proc doesn't apply to them: 
  • Invincibility, Against All Odds, Rise to the Challenge (Brute and Tank only).
• Brute and Tanker Ice Armor powers no longer have built-in Taunt, they are now instead covered by the inherent global proc.

This represented a weakening of Invincibility and Against All Odds and a buff to Rise to the Challenge.

 

It was in the patch notes as far back as December 6th...

 

...and remained in the patch notes until RC3:

 

Where we ended up with this note:

Quote

Taunt Auras

• Brute and Tanker Ice Armor powers no longer have built-in Taunt, they are now instead covered by the inherent global proc.

 

But the difference from RC2 did not include mention of any reversion of this being done:

Quote

Changes from RC2

• Fixed missing "Do Not Tint" flag in many pet powers.
• Fixed Epic pool damage tables for Soul Mastery and Ice Mastery.
  • This is to bring it in line with what the patch notes actually say - not a new change.
• Fixed various text errors on power customization for some armor sets.

 

Since there wasn't a mention of specifically removing it, and it was present in the RC2 notes after the "Minor tweaks and fixes to Tanker powers and descriptions." line in the Changes from RC1 section, plus you can also check the in-game information and find that the durations are slightly longer for Tankers - due to an AT modifier boost on their Taunt duration - but all three listed powers have the same duration for the respective ATs, I feel confident saying that it was just a documentation issue where it wasn't included in the later patch notes.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by siolfir
rewording

[BlackHearted]

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

In a meeting I'll reply later with exact working, but in essence the multipliers for tanks are higher. Their threat level and their mag are higher. They get AoE on punch. They will always 1:1 out aggro anything. It's built into the AT you can't build a brute to out aggro a tank, if the tank is above lvl 25 and has even level SO's.

 

Think of it like this: blasters cannot Be out damaged 1:1 build, in an SO environment, because they have significantly higher multipliers. The same attack at 100 base damage on anyone else is not nearly as high as on a a blaster.

 

If you want to build a brute to aggro strip a normally built tank, the best you could achieve is  maybe stripping aggro by a ratio of 30%.

 

Math later, sorry, meeting.

I would really appreciate any specifics you can give on the math behind how this works... my goal is to be able to hold agro when desired.... like if the tank wants me to hold agro b/c my brute is handling the damage better or whathave you.... I understand tanks are going to have a higher ceiling on how much threat they can generate, but if there’s something I can do to make it where I can agro strip a tank who is not taunting but still attacking that would be wonderful to know about as that is my goal... 

 

 gl with the meeting, reply of course at your convince.... and tyvm for the help.

[SwitchFade]

Read this thread here on the forums. Pay particular attention to @Sarrate as the posts given from this member will help you understand how to build threat and gain aggro

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Haijinx]

55 minutes ago, siolfir said:

(Lots of citations) 

 

Thanks.  There were some posts just recently though by some wondering if this had taken place.

 

Perhaps the patch is in place but less so certain power descriptions or something, I'm not sure.  

 

But with everything normalized (hopefully already is by what you posted) .. then the situations of "Invul tankers can steal aggro from all other Tankers", etc should no longer be the case. 

 

But it definitely was before.  

 

 

[Wavicle]

39 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

I would really appreciate any specifics you can give on the math behind how this works... my goal is to be able to hold agro when desired.... like if the tank wants me to hold agro b/c my brute is handling the damage better or whathave you.... I understand tanks are going to have a higher ceiling on how much threat they can generate, but if there’s something I can do to make it where I can agro strip a tank who is not taunting but still attacking that would be wonderful to know about as that is my goal... 

 

 gl with the meeting, reply of course at your convince.... and tyvm for the help.

pretty sure if the tanker is just Standing there (in other words ONLY using aura taunt, No punchvoke, and No Taunt power) then the Brute should Probably be able to pull aggro off them.

[BlackHearted]

29 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

pretty sure if the tanker is just Standing there (in other words ONLY using aura taunt, No punchvoke, and No Taunt power) then the Brute should Probably be able to pull aggro off them.

I want to be able to take agro while tank has toggle on and is attacking/triggering punchvoke... if they have just toggle on there seems to be no issue taking agro from them, but attacking plus toggle from a tank is currently preventing me from being able to strip agro as a brute ... from the testing I’ve done thus far that is.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, BlackHearted said:

I want to be able to take agro while tank has toggle on and is attacking/triggering punchvoke... if they have just toggle on there seems to be no issue taking agro from them, but attacking plus toggle from a tank is currently preventing me from being able to strip agro as a brute ... from the testing I’ve done thus far that is.

Well, that's not going to happen.

You said you want to be able to get aggro if Both you and the tanker want you to.  Well you can, but if the tanker wants you to take aggro he has to stop attacking.

And that is as it should be.

[SwitchFade]

4 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

I want to be able to take agro while tank has toggle on and is attacking/triggering punchvoke... if they have just toggle on there seems to be no issue taking agro from them, but attacking plus toggle from a tank is currently preventing me from being able to strip agro as a brute ... from the testing I’ve done thus far that is.

That won't happen, by design. Tankers have higher threat, higher mag, higher multipliers etc than all other AT's

 

AoE gauntlet, plus auras, plus attacking, plus debuffs they may do, you cannot out aggro a tank at full steam. Never could, never will. That's a Tank's whole purpose.

 

You can't even build to do that, because the modifiers tanks have are higher. Just like you can't out damage a blaster at full tilt on any at, you can't out tank a tanker.

[SwitchFade]

50 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Thanks.  There were some posts just recently though by some wondering if this had taken place.

 

Perhaps the patch is in place but less so certain power descriptions or something, I'm not sure.  

 

But with everything normalized (hopefully already is by what you posted) .. then the situations of "Invul tankers can steal aggro from all other Tankers", etc should no longer be the case. 

 

But it definitely was before.  

 

 

I was sad when this went through, as I (selfishly) think that invuln should have retained the 17 seconds. It was a major reason I loved it so much was the aggro capability.

 

I do feel it should keep it due to how invuln works, layered defense, but I accept it was changed. Invuln is still great.

[BlackHearted]

20 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

That won't happen, by design. Tankers have higher threat, higher mag, higher multipliers etc than all other AT's

 

AoE gauntlet, plus auras, plus attacking, plus debuffs they may do, you cannot out aggro a tank at full steam. Never could, never will. That's a Tank's whole purpose.

 

You can't even build to do that, because the modifiers tanks have are higher. Just like you can't out damage a blaster at full tilt on any at, you can't out tank a tanker.

So admittedly I’m not 1000% certain on this, but I’m fairly sure that when they first allowed side swapping.... and as long as I can remember on live...you could hold the agro of say an AV that was being attacked by a tank and a brute on the brute if the brute used taunt and the tank did not.(even with toggles and punchvoke triggers) 

 

Am I just remembering this completely wrong?

 

I get that if they are taunting AND attacking then there’s just no hope of changing the agro, but I was really convinced that if a tank was just attacking without taunting then a taunting and attacking brute should pull agro.(by the old #s)

Edited February 22, 2020 by BlackHearted