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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

One thing I wonder about Trek watchers

 

Is that there are basically

  1. Action Movie Fans that are okay with some Trek Movies  
  2. Trek Fans 
  3. Trek Fans that watch Science Fiction 
  4. Science Fiction Fans that are also Trek Fans 
  5. Science Fiction Fans that watch Trek  

So I wonder how those sorts of descriptions affect what Trek you like.  For example the new movies are mainly going for #1 hoping for some Nostalgia to splash on the rest

 

Where I'm more category 5.  I've watched all the TV series and some of the movies.  Really didn't like the new movies.  Mostly liked the rest of the franchise.  But if there was better Science Fiction available would probably skip Trek.      

 

  

I'm a Hybrid 3 & 4 leaning more toward 4 now after years of disappointment, tv wise I've been disappointed with everything since DS-9 movie wise VI was the last movie as far as I'm converned V doesn't count, I don't think ANYONE liked that one, I hated the JJ movie so much I haven't watched the two sequels (from what I've heard a wise decision)  I never really watched Voyager or Enterprise, but I've seen enough random episodes as re-runs that I can recognise there is some good stuff buried in the garbage, but Discovery just seemed bad Trek, Bad Sci-Fi and bad writing

Mayhem

It's my Oeuvre baby!

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2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm a Hybrid 3 & 4 leaning more toward 4 now after years of disappointment, tv wise I've been disappointed with everything since DS-9 movie wise VI was the last movie as far as I'm converned V doesn't count, I don't think ANYONE liked that one, I hated the JJ movie so much I haven't watched the two sequels (from what I've heard a wise decision)  I never really watched Voyager or Enterprise, but I've seen enough random episodes as re-runs that I can recognise there is some good stuff buried in the garbage, but Discovery just seemed bad Trek, Bad Sci-Fi and bad writing

The premise of all three of those shows are awesome though - BUT they are not like the first two shows at all.   Which I think detracts.  But I don't know if you really can call any Trek good or bad Sci-Fi since its more Science Fiction Theme Park, Space Opera stuff.   

 

Voyager - Its set in TNG which I think was wise.  But not in their normal setting, which I think bothered people.  DS9 diverged thematically but it was in the same setting as TNG so it felt more like an extension of TNG.   But the idea of a Ship lost on the other side of the Galaxy trying to find their way home is a good one. 

 

Enterprise -  Earth's first real Star-Ship is built after years of being slow rolled by a supposedly benevolent Alien Race.  They set out to basically join the (local) Interstellar Community.   It changed how Vulcans are.  Which bothered people.  It moved first contact with Klingons up.  Which bothered people.  It changed a lot of the history of TOS.  Which bothered people.  But I like the initial premise.  

 

Discovery - A botched attempt at cowboy diplomacy leads to a fatalistic war with a Superior Warlike enemy.  The woman who made the mistake seeks redemption by helping on a secret technology that might let the Federation survive.  Good Premise.  But they change Trek a lot.  

   

Might be a theme here.  They want to change too much.  Its like the writers don't even read their own lore.  

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The premise of all three of those shows are awesome though - BUT they are not like the first two shows at all.   Which I think detracts.  But I don't know if you really can call any Trek good or bad Sci-Fi since its more Science Fiction Theme Park, Space Opera stuff.   

 

Voyager - Its set in TNG which I think was wise.  But not in their normal setting, which I think bothered people.  DS9 diverged thematically but it was in the same setting as TNG so it felt more like an extension of TNG.   But the idea of a Ship lost on the other side of the Galaxy trying to find their way home is a good one. 

 

Enterprise -  Earth's first real Star-Ship is built after years of being slow rolled by a supposedly benevolent Alien Race.  They set out to basically join the (local) Interstellar Community.   It changed how Vulcans are.  Which bothered people.  It moved first contact with Klingons up.  Which bothered people.  It changed a lot of the history of TOS.  Which bothered people.  But I like the initial premise.  

 

Discovery - A botched attempt at cowboy diplomacy leads to a fatalistic war with a Superior Warlike enemy.  The woman who made the mistake seeks redemption by helping on a secret technology that might let the Federation survive.  Good Premise.  But they change Trek a lot.  

   

Might be a theme here.  They want to change too much.  Its like the writers don't even read their own lore.  

 

 

 

 

I'm not complaining about the themes or underlying tropes used to set up any of the shows,  just the execution pretty much they all needed Dorothy Fontana to ride herd on them

Mayhem

It's my Oeuvre baby!

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5 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm not complaining about the themes or underlying tropes used to set up any of the shows,  just the execution pretty much they all needed Dorothy Fontana to ride herd on them

Star Wars has a similar problem.  Though the Guilty party in part IS the original writer.  

 

I wonder how much of Trek is the inevitable Flanderization,  And how much is unless they slap the name "Trek" on it they cant get a show like it bankrolled.  

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16 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Discovery - A botched attempt at cowboy diplomacy leads to a fatalistic war with a Superior Warlike enemy.  The woman who made the mistake seeks redemption by helping on a secret technology that might let the Federation survive.  Good Premise.  But they change Trek a lot.  

   

Might be a theme here.  They want to change too much.  Its like the writers don't even read their own lore.

 

 

From what I've read and understand, the executive producers during the first season and the first half of the second season had no experience with science-fiction before.  None.  Until they were hired for Discovery, they've never even watched Star Trek before.  Also from what I understand, it's the same case with the show's writers.  The vast majority of them are generic television writers with no or very little experience with science-fiction.

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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

unless they slap the name "Trek" on it they cant get a show like it bankrolled.  

This is the impression I get, though it also seems to cause resentment in the show runners who go out of their way to make in UN-Trek 😄

 

Star Wars needed more Laurence Kasdan and less George Lucas 😄 though after seeing the Mandalorian, more Jon Favreau would also be a great thing

Mayhem

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1 minute ago, Apparition said:

 

From what I've read and understand, the executive producers during the first season and the first half of the second season had no experience with science-fiction before.  None.  Until they were hired for Discovery, they've never even watched Star Trek before.  Also from what I understand, it's the same case with the show's writers.  The vast majority of them are generic television writers with no or very little experience with science-fiction.

it showed

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3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

From what I've read and understand, the executive producers during the first season and the first half of the second season had no experience with science-fiction before.  None.  Until they were hired for Discovery, they've never even watched Star Trek before.  Also from what I understand, it's the same case with the show's writers.  The vast majority of them are generic television writers with no or very little experience with science-fiction.

You cant really like Science Fiction TV and not have watched Trek in one form.  There is just not enough Sci Fi TV 

 

So ..wow .. that is pretty pathetic. 

 

Someone from Season 2 must have watched TOS though.  They go out of their way to make Pike seem like Pike from the TOS pilot.  Maybe because they only needed to research Two Episodes to do Pike, lol. 

 

 

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Its kind of sad really.  People say Science Fiction shows are bad.  But its like the Show Makers go out of their way to handicap them.  

 

If you are going to use an existing Franchise,  Hire a few (open minded) people who know it well to help you. 

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18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Its kind of sad really.  People say Science Fiction shows are bad.  But its like the Show Makers go out of their way to handicap them.  

 

If you are going to use an existing Franchise,  Hire a few (open minded) people who know it well to help you. 

I think thats why Next Gen worked, despite the dodgy producer merry go round 😄

Mayhem

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1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

I think thats why Next Gen worked, despite the dodgy producer merry go round 😄

We had all grown up on TOS reruns, which ran every weekday on 1 of our 5 channels.  Then the 3 Star Wars movies.  Plus was the mini boom - boomer's kids all the right age for TNG to come out.  

 

Everyone was ready for a new Trek.  And I think there was still just 5 channels for most people when it did.  

 

So it had time and patience to outgrow the early season stuff, I think.   I watched the first season again recently and I don't see how people think that season is any better than the other editions like Enterprise or Discovery.   

 

TOS by contrast is different.   The 2nd Pilot is actually more in line with Science Fiction novels/movies at the time than the later episodes.  Especially before the whole Monster of the Week part started.  The opening scenes are some of my favorites.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

We had all grown up on TOS reruns, which ran every weekday on 1 of our 5 channels.  Then the 3 Star Wars movies.  Plus was the mini boom - boomer's kids all the right age for TNG to come out.  

 

Everyone was ready for a new Trek.  And I think there was still just 5 channels for most people when it did.  

 

So it had time and patience to outgrow the early season stuff, I think.   I watched the first season again recently and I don't see how people think that season is any better than the other editions like Enterprise or Discovery.   

 

TOS by contrast is different.   The 2nd Pilot is actually more in line with Science Fiction novels/movies at the time than the later episodes.  Especially before the whole Monster of the Week part started.  The opening scenes are some of my favorites.  

 

 

The first two seasons of TNG are probably worse than Voyager and Enterprise, in my opinion anyway, season 3-5 was when TNG was at it's best, I think Voyager and Enterprise suffered from Trek fatigue more than anything which is why they weren't given the opportunity to get past their early, shaky seasons

 

Don't forget with TOS, you had actual heavyweight SciFi Authors like Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold, Theodore Sturgeon, Dorothy Fontana, and Norman Spinrad, that helps 😄

Mayhem

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8 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

The first two seasons of TNG are probably worse than Voyager and Enterprise, in my opinion anyway, season 3-5 was when TNG was at it's best, I think Voyager and Enterprise suffered from Trek fatigue more than anything which is why they weren't given the opportunity to get past their early, shaky seasons

 

Don't forget with TOS, you had actual heavyweight SciFi Authors like Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold, Theodore Sturgeon, Dorothy Fontana, and Norman Spinrad, that helps 😄

I think Voyager is mostly liked.  It also ran concurrently with DS9 for a couple seasons, I think? 

 

And yeah - I think many people compare Enterprise and Discovery with the later seasons of TNG.  Which is unfair.  Its not like the team stayed together.   TNG grew into an awesome show.  

 

Of course I think the first season of The Expanse and Firefly were better than any those.  

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4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think Voyager is mostly liked.  It also ran concurrently with DS9 for a couple seasons, I think? 

 

And yeah - I think many people compare Enterprise and Discovery with the later seasons of TNG.  Which is unfair.  Its not like the team stayed together.   TNG grew into an awesome show.  

 

Of course I think the first season of The Expanse and Firefly were better than any those.  

I think 2 seasons of overlap

 

I suspect Discoveries biggest stumbling block is The Orville, even as a comedy show it feels much truer to the flavour of Trek, there is obviously a lot of love for Star Trek there, which as has been explained now seems missing from Discovery

Mayhem

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Just now, boggo2300 said:

I think 2 seasons of overlap

 

I suspect Discoveries biggest stumbling block is The Orville, even as a comedy show it feels much truer to the flavour of Trek, there is obviously a lot of love for Star Trek there, which as has been explained now seems missing from Discovery

Hmmm.   Yeah I thought that was a bit too silly.  When its trying to be more serious its okay. 

 

Of course you don't have to pay to watch it.   

 

By Flavor of Trek you mean the whole Explore and Seek out Peace, etc.  I imagine.  

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Just now, Haijinx said:

Hmmm.   Yeah I thought that was a bit too silly.  When its trying to be more serious its okay. 

 

Of course you don't have to pay to watch it.   

 

By Flavor of Trek you mean the whole Explore and Seek out Peace, etc.  I imagine.  

yeah, I think losing Bortas and all the silly "Aren't these aliens weird" bits would be a godsend for Orville, but yeah it has the whole Explore, try your best to not be "THAT" star spanning empire thing is the feel of Trek to me, something actual banner Star Trek shows have been doing increasingly since DS-9, though it worked in DS-9 because of the whole total war thing, you just need to look at some of the truly horrible things the allied powers did in WW2 to see that kind of thing is a real thing, but generally once the war is done, try and forget it...

 

My least favourite episodes of Voyager for example were the ones where they met other Starfleet ships in the Delta Quadrant, who had gone feral every time, if it was that easy for starfleet crews to fall, why didn't Voyagers crew?

ok, thats just a pet peeve, but it's one example of my issues with SOME of the writing of Voyager

Mayhem

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30 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Hmmm.   Yeah I thought that was a bit too silly.  When its trying to be more serious its okay. 

 

Of course you don't have to pay to watch it.   

 

By Flavor of Trek you mean the whole Explore and Seek out Peace, etc.  I imagine.  

 

You will have to pay to watch the third season of The Orville.  It will be exclusive to Hulu.

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16 hours ago, Apparition said:

From what I've read and understand, the executive producers during the first season and the first half of the second season had no experience with science-fiction before.  None.  Until they were hired for Discovery, they've never even watched Star Trek before.  Also from what I understand, it's the same case with the show's writers.  The vast majority of them are generic television writers with no or very little experience with science-fiction.

Discovery Season 1 was just straight up PLAGARISM ... Full Stop.

The Spore Drive?  Plagarized.

The Tardigrade?  Plagarized.

Tilly?  Plagarized.

 

I could go on (a lot longer), but I figure I've made my point.  From what I've seen in reviews of Season 2 the rampant plagarism CONTINUED, except they were trying to plagarize different sources.

15 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

I suspect Discoveries biggest stumbling block is The Orville, even as a comedy show it feels much truer to the flavour of Trek, there is obviously a lot of love for Star Trek there, which as has been explained now seems missing from Discovery

Let's put it this way.

 

The Orville is a Love Letter to Star Trek fans.

Discovery is a Ransom Demand to Star Trek fans.

 

There's a reason why the fandom split the way it did over this issue.

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Just now, Redlynne said:

Yeah I just got done with a couple of articles on this .. WOW. 

It was a good show idea .. that someone else had.

Sure looks like it was stolen wholesale.

 

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2018/09/11/understanding-the-star-trek-discovery-plagiarism-allegations/

 

That's a shame since the accidental war due to the failed communication/hubris leading to a redemption quest could have worked without that stuff.  

 

I guess some of those Producers/Authors really didn't have any Science Fiction ideas on their own.  

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27 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Yeah I just got done with a couple of articles on this .. WOW. 

It was a good show idea .. that someone else had.

Sure looks like it was stolen wholesale.

 

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2018/09/11/understanding-the-star-trek-discovery-plagiarism-allegations/

 

That's a shame since the accidental war due to the failed communication/hubris leading to a redemption quest could have worked without that stuff.  

 

I guess some of those Producers/Authors really didn't have any Science Fiction ideas on their own.  

FTFY

Mayhem

It's my Oeuvre baby!

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