History: When did missions become more difficult?

[MrSnottyPants]

This is just curiosity, since I wasn't playing anymore when Going Rogue was released.

 

Pretoria content, tip missions, newer story arcs:  More difficult than older missions.  Solo you can get two (or three!) bosses together, oversized spawns, and ambushes that don't wait for the previous ambush to be dealt with.  The new stuff gives you higher difficulty spikes, and can leave you in more difficult spots.

 

Did this all happen at once?  Did the devs announce a plan to make stuff harder, or did it just creep up?  Did folks complain?  Again, just wondering, not looking for changes...

[Frostbiter]

It's been a slow creep. It mostly started with the release of City of Villains when enemy groups were re-balanced for the Rogue Isles. The Circle of Thorns got those ghosts everyone hates for instance.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Hyperstrike]

The intro to Praetoria was when you started seeing the runaway ambushes.  Even at insanely low levels.

[GM Miss]

Praetoria is notorious for being difficult. I love that we have content like that though, some people love challenges!

[Shred Monkey]

I am one of those players who like the Praetoria difficulty level.  And the story lines are extremely well done.  The well crafted moral ambiguity is really jolting.  It deserves to be played more.

 

I wish Pretoria was a level 20+ area we could do as an alternate to Talos/PI.  As is, when I do a Praetoria toon I get lonely.  It's do DFB 4 times to get to level 17 in under an hour, each time with a full team launching from a full zone   .....OR.....  Do Praetoria for a 3-5 evenings to get to level 20 and possibly never see a single other player the entire time.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to just open up the level ranges to 1-40 and have missions scale to your current level.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Shred Monkey

[Lines]

1 minute ago, Shred Monkey said:

I am one of those players who like the Praetoria difficulty level.  And the story lines are extremely well done.  The well crafted moral ambiguity is really jolting.  It deserves to be played more.

 

I wish Pretoria was a level 20+ area we could do as an alternate to Talos/PI.  As is, when I do a Praetoria toon I get lonely.  It's do DFB 4 times to get to level 17 in under an hour, each time with a full team launching from a full zone   .....OR.....  Do Praetoria for a 3-5 evenings to get to level 20 and possibly never see a single other player the entire time.

 

 

If I see you there I'll give you a high five, friend!

[Shred Monkey]

2 minutes ago, Lines said:

If I see you there I'll give you a high five, friend!

We could team up to take flowers to Marauder's girlfriend.

[Rathulfr]

29 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

The intro to Praetoria was when you started seeing the runaway ambushes.  Even at insanely low levels.

And this is the reason why I never roll up new characters on gold side.  Don't get me wrong: I love how Praetoria looks, and I like the missions, but not at level -- it's simply too brutal.  I've been going back to Praetoria through Ouroboros, so that I'm properly slotted for it, instead.

 

[Mr. Vee]

Agree with Rathulfr re flashing back to praetoria. But should you find yourself stuck there at lowbie level go buy the amplifiers at p2w to give yourself an edge, especially against those %&()*ing ghoul ambushes.

[Bossk_Hogg]

32 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

I am one of those players who like the Praetoria difficulty level.  And the story lines are extremely well done.  The well crafted moral ambiguity is really jolting.  It deserves to be played more.

 

I wish Pretoria was a level 20+ area we could do as an alternate to Talos/PI.  As is, when I do a Praetoria toon I get lonely.  It's do DFB 4 times to get to level 17 in under an hour, each time with a full team launching from a full zone   .....OR.....  Do Praetoria for a 3-5 evenings to get to level 20 and possibly never see a single other player the entire time.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to just open up the level ranges to 1-40 and have missions scale to your current level.

 

 

It's honestly more tuned for higher levels as well. Even if it just scaled to 30, you wouldn't have to turn off exp to actually finish your arcs if you ever team.

[gamingglen]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

I am one of those players who like the Praetoria difficulty level.  And the story lines are extremely well done.  The well crafted moral ambiguity is really jolting.  It deserves to be played more.

 

 

Well-crafted?  Bah.  I despise the moral choices. I like the look of Praetoria, except for the lack of real store fronts, and I go there with a hero on occasion, but I will never start there ever again.

[boggo2300]

honestly, it's ONLY Praetoria that has any difficulty, I mean I'm currently soloing an AR/DEV blaster at +4 from level 1 on blue, and red side is no harder, Praetoria is, and it's interesting though sometimes frustrating levels of mission difficulty (the frustration is only because theres no-one else there!)

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

I am one of those players who like the Praetoria difficulty level.  And the story lines are extremely well done.  The well crafted moral ambiguity is really jolting.  It deserves to be played more.

 

I wish Pretoria was a level 20+ area we could do as an alternate to Talos/PI.  As is, when I do a Praetoria toon I get lonely.  It's do DFB 4 times to get to level 17 in under an hour, each time with a full team launching from a full zone   .....OR.....  Do Praetoria for a 3-5 evenings to get to level 20 and possibly never see a single other player the entire time.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to just open up the level ranges to 1-40 and have missions scale to your current level.

 

 

 I have 28 characters currently in Paragon/Isles. I believe that I am going to roll any new ones through Praetoria to run those arcs.

 

 

 

Too bad Praetoria wasn’t just Incarnate content. I believe that they completely missed the boat there.

[Snarky]

You sort of typed out the answer. Look at each issue that added the content you mention and your answer is revealed. Paragon Wiki 

[Lazarillo]

I recall reading (though it's been so long that I've no idea of a source, I'm afraid), that Praetoria's arcs were originally conceptualized as late game content, then changed to be new starting zones, which is why the difficulty can be pretty murderous to low-level characters.

 

Of course then, in a double twist, the Resistance who were never properly scaled down from 40+ stuff got scaled back up in some of the late game arcs, and they're just relentless when you do get to higher levels.

[Snarky]

I solo’d Prae on a few. Rutes when it first came out. I am very good with Brutes. It was not easy and a couple of the missions challenged me pretty hard which is unusual when i am soloing. But the mechanics of one vs an endless wave is never good. And u think there is a tv station mission which is all but impossible on a Brute unless played just perfect due to spawn size and chain agro. Been many years so memory is not perfect. But it made my Brutes feel like Blasters. 

[VV]

10 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I am one of those players who like the Praetoria difficulty level.  And the story lines are extremely well done.  The well crafted moral ambiguity is really jolting.  It deserves to be played more.

 

I wish Pretoria was a level 20+ area we could do as an alternate to Talos/PI.

First Ward and Night Ward are Praetoria, too, right? Though, I realize they are different, not real real Praetoria.

 

It is kind of weird, low-level Praetoria content is way more doable with teams, but it's hard to get a team. Low-level prime earth content is super easy to solo, but it's way easier to get a team.

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, GM Miss said:

Praetoria is notorious for being difficult. I love that we have content like that though, some people love challenges!

There is a reason why I started playing on HC last year, Emporer Cole’s dimension was the second place I checked out after the Rogue Isles. The nostalgia of the storylines and tight difficulty there always were a key memory for me, from my time on the live servers.

[Safehouse]

16 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

There is a reason why I started playing on HC last year, Emporer Cole’s dimension was the second place I checked out after the Rogue Isles. The nostalgia of the storylines and tight difficulty there always were a key memory for me, from my time on the live servers.

Same. I started playing CoH with my girlfriend shortly before Going Rogue came out (started at the VERY end of issue 16 as issue 17 was coming out), but I remember it was at Going Rogue that I really hit my stride with CoH. Because of that I always have really fond memories of gold side. It’s too bad the devs never had the chance to flesh it out all the way to 50 (I believe they intended to do that).

 

Funnily enough I haven’t rolled a Praetorian yet. I’ll have to do that.

[Greycat]

I think it was Sean Mccann who was doing a lot of content at that time and was a *bit* multi-ambush crazy...

[Lines]

I love Praetoria, and I play it through the low levels often. I die a whole lot more, for certain, but it's a gteat way to get to know my character and feel rewarded by getting them right.

 

Ambushes (across the whole game) are a bit cheap for breaking two game rules; seeing through stealth and often not being tauntable. I don't think it's ok for a game to suddenly have a particular circumstance have its own rules in contrast to everywhere else the game operates.

 

I think this is one of the many opportunities for AI changes, to give players a few more options for dealing with ambushes. It would be great if players could cleverly set up a stealthier 'divide and conquer' strategy.

[Gulbasaur]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

Ambushes (across the whole game) are a bit cheap for breaking two game rules; seeing through stealth and often not being tauntable. I don't think it's ok for a game to suddenly have a particular circumstance have its own rules in contrast to everywhere else the game operates.

 

I think this is one of the many opportunities for AI changes, to give players a few more options for dealing with ambushes. It would be great if players could cleverly set up a stealthier 'divide and conquer' strategy.

I wish I knew what the rules were for ambush targets... If you've got sidekicks with you, it's hard to protect them and intercept the ambush if enemies literally run past you. 

 

I don't really mind the concept, especially as they usually announce themselves with a speech bubble appearing somewhere on the screen, but they're harder to tame than the average mob spawn. 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

I wish I knew what the rules were for ambush targets... If you've got sidekicks with you, it's hard to protect them and intercept the ambush if enemies literally run past you. 

 

I don't really mind the concept, especially as they usually announce themselves with a speech bubble appearing somewhere on the screen, but they're harder to tame than the average mob spawn. 

I think there are three types. There are two I know of, one easy to deal with, one... not.

 

One type runs to where you are when it spawns - which is a very sensible ambush. "Evildude spotted in room 7! Get him!"   Also can be easy to avoid - I've just stepped into a side hallway and watched them run by.  (I *think* there's a type that waill run to wherever you've gone to when each wave spawns. So you get a trail of breadcrumb-ambushes behind you standing around.)

 

The other one homes in on you regardless of stealth or movement. (Remember the Longbow Death-from-Above Eagle squads when heist missions were introduced?) These are just annoying and, for some characters, nonsensical, but... eh.

 

I can't honestly say right offhand if/how they divide or who they go after, since it seems like (at least for TFs) they'll hit the first person in the zone instead of spreading out.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Greycat

[Chris24601]

I’d honestly be okay with expanding each of the Praetorian zone bands from where they are now to say Nova 1-15, Imperial 10-20, Neutropolis 21-30, First Ward 30-40, Night Ward 40-50 (so the top end there would lead directly to the level 50 Night Ward missions) and then make the New Praetorians arc specifically a level 50 instead of 35-50 to be part of the Praetorian capstone (along with the Night Ward arc and Number Six/Last Bastion arcs).

 

The other thing I’d love to see is a Non-trial version of the Incarnate trials; something where you could slow down enough to actually see the story (I still don’t know exactly what’s going on in the TPN trial and why I’m being teleported from building to building by the teams practically every minute).

 

I think there’s actually a reasonable story tucked into the Incarnate trials if you could ever run them in order at a slower pace and being able to do it more easily on your own terms would help with a lot of things in the end game feeling rather disjointed.

 

Being able to do in order;

- Tina McIntyre’s arcs (Anti-Matter Collision/Instant Army)

- Maria Jenkin’s (A Hero’s Epic)

- Apex and Tin Mage TFs

- Level 50 Night Ward arc

- A story arc based on the Incarnate trials (BAF, Lambda, Keyes Reactor, Underground, TPN, Minds of Mayhem, Magisterium... with a contact link after “Minds of Mayhem” to the first Dark Astoria contact )

- New Praetorians (and Villain mirror) and the Last Bastion arcs

 

; that’s a rather tight and cohesive story going on there. Even more so if you could take the Praetoria content all the way to 40-44 and get put in touch with Tina on exiting to Primal Earth.

 

I haven’t played enough Red-side to know if there’s a reasonable mirror for Tina/Maria there; but if there isn’t, maybe there should be. Take a cue from the MMO I played while CoH was gone and mirror the missions with a couple of new

contacts with a much more selfish agenda.

 

Say instead of defeating Praetors Barry and Keyes to stop their plans you’re just out to steal the Clockwork tech (thus why late level Arachnos now has warworks ACUs... you stole the tech for them in exchange for a big payoff).

 

Then instead of facing the Praetorians to save Paragon city you’re invading them and looking to weaken the Praetorian forces enough to conquer the Praetorian dimension yourself... with the twist being your efforts are what actually triggers the Praetorian War/Cole’s Invasion of Primal Earth (so your involvement with all the heroes is just you covering your tracks/cleaning up the mess you made).

[Scientist]

Arcanaville thought that when they put Praetoria together they had "forgotten" how to design low level mobs like Skulls.  Original low level mobs have like 2 or maybe 3 attacks, with long recharges, which goes up to high level mobs with more of a real attack chain.  The Praetorian mobs were designed more like high level mobs, with an attack chain.  I think it was also when the devs got a software improvement that let them trigger ambushes from more types of actions, so they REALLY wanted to put that through its paces.  

 

I think that was somewhat true with Rogue Isles as well, it had harder foes in a lot of cases then blueside.  In particular, there were more AVs as part of normal story arcs, and I think it came out before you could downgrade them to EBs, because I remember my MM fighting them as AVs a lot.  Fortunately a bots/traps MM can beat an AV on SOs.