A Call for a little transparency, just a touch.

[jubakumbi]

From my POV, the forum playerbase will actually jump ship if the HC servers become 'legit', because it will mean NCSoft is actively involved.

I think there are also a large number of lurkers that will also either stop playing or move to private servers if NCSoft is involved.

Will those numbers be larger or smaller than the numbers being 'legit' will pull into the game?

Who can say?

 

There are a lot of people wanting the 'feel' better about playing something 'legit' as if it's some form of life validation for the time they spend playing or something from my POV, that also hate NCSoft with every single breath.

 

IMO, the current status quo is pretty much what anyone should expect.

Nothing lasts for ever, games come and go, and the technology to run them often becomes obsolete in anything other than an emulator for a handful of people determined to hold on to 'the good old days'.

 

It's just talking in circles about stuff for which we have no real data, everyone just keeps trying to find conspiracy thoeries and ulterior motives, when in reality it's just another pirated game that might live for decades or die tomorrow.

 

I get that plenty of people like to talk in circles though...

 

ECHO, Echo, echo....

[NNDeepdish]

12 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

It's just talking in circles about stuff for which we have no real data, everyone just keeps trying to find conspiracy thoeries and ulterior motives, when in reality it's just another pirated game that might live for decades or die tomorrow.

 

I get that plenty of people like to talk in circles though...

Indeed they do especially on this forum

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

There are a lot of people wanting the 'feel' better about playing something 'legit' as if it's some form of life validation for the time they spend playing or something from my POV, that also hate NCSoft with every single breath.

Well no it's more about knowing the game has the owner's legal permission and they aren't going to get shut down on a whim.  Has nothing to do with life validation whatever that is supposed to mean.

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Well no it's more about knowing the game has the owner's legal permission and they aren't going to get shut down on a whim.  Has nothing to do with life validation whatever that is supposed to mean.

It means that plenty of people still think if they play on a non-'legit' server, 'the man' will come knocking.

Anything could be shutdown on a whim, COH was, afterall.

 

Legal permission in this case is, IMO, a pretty silly thing to use as a foundation for the conclusion the game servers you choose to play upon cannot be 'shutdown on a whim'.

 

To read some of the posts here and elsewhere about this, some people think if NCSoft says 'OK' (to whatever vague idea of 'talks' one subscribes to) that they will still be playing the game in 100 years without a worry of 'losing the work' they do on thier characters.

The sheer amount of misinformaition and hype over this is staggering IMO.

 

Sure, it would be great if there is some level of closure with NCSoft to where they stand, but coporations don't do that typically and this one does not have a good track record on that front.

We have what we have and trying to blow smoke over some magical nirvana of 'legit' is, IMO, looking at the whole thing through a thick set of rose colored lenses...

 

The magnitude of the emotional arguments, based on little more than unbridled hate toward NCSoft, also tells me that if players think any of thier $ would get to NCSoft, then going 'legit' will, in fact, 'ruin the game' for them.

 

Many players IMO based on posting feel the need to be 'validated' that they are 'doing the right thing', be that getting NCSoft to make it 'legit', or eschewing NCSoft because to be 'legit' they have to be involved.

 

A whole heap of people that play this game seem to me to need this external validation to make themselves happy from my POV.

[Ukase]

Ladies, Gentlemen...I have one word for you. Resources. 

Okay, I misspoke. I have MANY words. When you want folks to be transparent (above and beyond what these fine dev folks already are!?), you're asking someone to take the time to explain things that are essentially none of your business. 

Seriously! We're all on the outside, looking in. I completely understand that you want to know more - maybe you don't want to invest time in a system that may shut down if you'd had all the information available. But - what we have is a game that people are voluntarily making available for FREE. Just enjoy it, Donate if you can. 

We don't need to know anything, other than how to log in and play. That's it! You, me - that fool who is level 50 and can't find a merit vendor - none of us need to know anything other than how to log in and play. 

I would much prefer these folks on the HC dev team focus on things as they think best. If it turns out it's not best, so be it! I got to play, and I'm grateful. 

 

Instead of taking time here - let's all go to the test server and look and see if we can find things that they need to know about. 

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

It means that plenty of people still think if they play on a non-'legit' server, 'the man' will come knocking.

Anything could be shutdown on a whim, COH was, afterall.

Sure but that was then and the circumstances are a little different today.  The threat of a cease and desist from the owner is the big cloud hanging over the game right now.  Personally I think that is a legitimate concern for some to have.  I tend to agree with you on the rest, however I can understand and empathize with those who have concerns about legality are coming from.

[Haijinx]

Some people do seem to have a lot of Anxiety about the game being shut down.

 

I hope it isn't. But if it is, Ill find another game to play. 

 

I'm not going to pressure Homecoming in any way, they are cool enough to host this version of COH for us, and I appreciate it. 

 

They don't owe me anything.  

 

 

 

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Sure but that was then and the circumstances are a little different today.  The threat of a cease and desist from the owner is the big cloud hanging over the game right now.  Personally I think that is a legitimate concern for some to have.  I tend to agree with you on the rest, however I can understand and empathize with those who have concerns about legality are coming from.

I don't think the cloud you refer to is any different from any of the others that have been in place for years, pirate servers still keep on rolling.

IMO the reason people are riled up is simply because some poeple like to be riled up, TBH.

The thought that law enforcement is going to show up at your door for playing this game is not IMO, in any way a valid, logic thought.

Even if the game gets a green light, any server could go offline at any time for all kinds of reasons.

Therefore, this idea of things being 'legit' for the game to 'survive' is, IMO, nothing more than people who are wired to worry, worrying, and people who like to talk, talking, in circles...

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

From my POV, the forum playerbase will actually jump ship if the HC servers become 'legit', because it will mean NCSoft is actively involved.

I think these players have already gone, and have been gone since HC announced they were in talks with NCSoft.

[Doc_Scorpion]

Folks who think NCSoft isn't paying attention...  Try to watch this City of Heroes video posted a few hours ago.

https://youtu.be/OBnepCsnMQI

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Doc_Scorpion

[Troo]

that's ominous 

[Grouchybeast]

35 minutes ago, Troo said:

that's ominous 

I think it's interesting as an indication that NCSoft are willing to move quickly to take down content using their IP when someone is using it commercially.  It isn't that they're blanket ignoring CoX IP violations, rather they're being very selective in how they address them.

[Haijinx]

Ironic that some video on youtube is more important to someone than 10+ thousand people playing their shuttered game.

[Snarky]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Ironic that some video on youtube is more important to someone than 10+ thousand people playing their shuttered game.

NCSoft is a button down Korean corporation.  They have people they pay to shut this crap down. They have people they pay to scan our forums. (One of the reasons i stay away from my opinions on American Korean political entanglements) They are watching. At least someone in a cubicle somewhere is. But they have strict instructions about dealing with Homecoming and these boards. So do not take the current tone as anything more than a moment in history waiting on a decision. All interactions by the very regulated workers at NCSoft will reflect this

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, Snarky said:

NCSoft is a button down Korean corporation.  They have people they pay to shut this crap down. They have people they pay to scan our forums. (One of the reasons i stay away from my opinions on American Korean political entanglements) They are watching. At least someone in a cubicle somewhere is. But they have strict instructions about dealing with Homecoming and these boards. So do not take the current tone as anything more than a moment in history waiting on a decision. All interactions by the very regulated workers at NCSoft will reflect this

Interesting.  I wonder what that cubicle worker thinks of this thread.

 

 

Them and the NSA spy guy who was already there.  

[skoryy]

52 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Interesting.  I wonder what that cubicle worker thinks of this thread.

 

 

Them and the NSA spy guy who was already there.  

They're too busy chatting up the Russian spy and Bilderberger the next cube over about tomorrow morning's chemtrail plans.

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

Therefore, this idea of things being 'legit' for the game to 'survive' is, IMO, nothing more than people who are wired to worry, worrying, and people who like to talk, talking, in circles...

Hello pot, welcome to the kettle group.

[nzer]

21 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

It means that plenty of people still think if they play on a non-'legit' server, 'the man' will come knocking.

Anything could be shutdown on a whim, COH was, afterall.

 

Legal permission in this case is, IMO, a pretty silly thing to use as a foundation for the conclusion the game servers you choose to play upon cannot be 'shutdown on a whim'.

 

To read some of the posts here and elsewhere about this, some people think if NCSoft says 'OK' (to whatever vague idea of 'talks' one subscribes to) that they will still be playing the game in 100 years without a worry of 'losing the work' they do on thier characters.

The sheer amount of misinformaition and hype over this is staggering IMO.

 

Sure, it would be great if there is some level of closure with NCSoft to where they stand, but coporations don't do that typically and this one does not have a good track record on that front.

We have what we have and trying to blow smoke over some magical nirvana of 'legit' is, IMO, looking at the whole thing through a thick set of rose colored lenses...

 

The magnitude of the emotional arguments, based on little more than unbridled hate toward NCSoft, also tells me that if players think any of thier $ would get to NCSoft, then going 'legit' will, in fact, 'ruin the game' for them.

 

Many players IMO based on posting feel the need to be 'validated' that they are 'doing the right thing', be that getting NCSoft to make it 'legit', or eschewing NCSoft because to be 'legit' they have to be involved.

 

A whole heap of people that play this game seem to me to need this external validation to make themselves happy from my POV.

Man, this really isn't a complex thing. Right now, a cease and desist means game over. Reaching an agreement with NCSoft provides a binding guarantee that a cease and desist isn't on the table. Worst case, the agreement is toothless and leaves NCSoft to pull the plug at any moment, but guess what, that's no worse than where we are now.

[jubakumbi]

21 hours ago, nzer said:

Man, this really isn't a complex thing. Right now, a cease and desist means game over. Reaching an agreement with NCSoft provides a binding guarantee that a cease and desist isn't on the table. Worst case, the agreement is toothless and leaves NCSoft to pull the plug at any moment, but guess what, that's no worse than where we are now.

Exactly.

Except not.

The code is in the wild, people who want to play will be able to do so as long as the technology to run that code exists.

 

The only difference is the glorified 'community' that comes along with it - constant C&D would make it more complex to find servers, but not really hard.

 

For people who just want to play COH, the legal stuff will not impact them, they have the code.

For people that think they need a big playerbase to be able to enjoy the game, these things are more dire in thier eyes, because for them the game is dead without more people.

 

The video example exemplifies the entire situation IMO - try and make money, you get hit, otherwise, don't fret.

So yeah, not that complex, except for the people who simply cannot stop worrying, the people who think they need a big playerbase, the people that want to control the game, the people that want the game to have rulers they can just follow without worrrying, it's all fine except for all those large groups, right?

 

From a legal standpoint it's very simple - don't make money, keep your server.

From an emotional standpoint it's incredibly complicated, we have a ton of people wired to worry, especially over the minutae and the possibility of law enforcement taking away thier freedom over playing the game, groups that think there should be Only One True Server and One True Codebase and others that want Full Hall Monitors in place to thwart the Uncreative, while many of us want the exact opposite.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

The video example exemplifies the entire situation IMO - try and make money, you get hit, otherwise, don't fret.

Yeah that argument didn't fly with the whole copyright and homage character argument.  some people here literally went apeshit and lost their minds because someone "lacked the creativity" to make an homage toon.  Not sure it will or even should fly for the legal issue with pirated code.  Theft is theft whether you get caught or not. 

[Troo]

/e facepalm

[jubakumbi]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah that argument didn't fly with the whole copyright and homage character argument.  some people here literally went apeshit and lost their minds because someone "lacked the creativity" to make an homage toon.  Not sure it will or even should fly for the legal issue with pirated code.  Theft is theft whether you get caught or not. 

I think the crackdown on homages is about as silly as it gets, I have posted plenty in that realm.

HC decided to go with the fearmongers, it's thier choice to make, it's thier servers, they can do as they like.

The war on the 'not creative enough' has waged for decades in MMOs, it has always raged here in like a bonfire.

[nzer]

5 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

For people who just want to play COH, the legal stuff will not impact them, they have the code.

For people that think they need a big playerbase to be able to enjoy the game, these things are more dire in thier eyes, because for them the game is dead without more people.

 

The video example exemplifies the entire situation IMO - try and make money, you get hit, otherwise, don't fret.

So yeah, not that complex, except for the people who simply cannot stop worrying, the people who think they need a big playerbase, the people that want to control the game, the people that want the game to have rulers they can just follow without worrrying, it's all fine except for all those large groups, right?

 

From a legal standpoint it's very simple - don't make money, keep your server.

Anyone playing CoH on Homecoming is affected by "the legal stuff," as the server shutting down means the loss of characters they probably spent hundreds if not thousands of hours playing, and the idea that people would be fine spinning up their own servers and playing by themselves in an MMO specifically designed around team play is, honestly, pretty laughable. Never mind that the overwhelming majority of people don't have the expertise to spin up their own server on a whim, and probably wouldn't be okay with doing it even if everything was explicitly spelled out for them. It's not plug and play, especially for a game this old.

 

As for "don't make money, keep your server," that only works until it doesn't, and corporations are obligated to defend their IP from infringement even if they don't plan on actually using it themselves. We see this all the time with private servers for other games; they last for a good long while and everyone assumes they're fine because they're not bothering anyone, then out of the blue they get a cease and desist. Another one springs up, but the damage is done, because, again, when the server goes, hundreds or thousands of hours of investment goes with it.

 

The only reason I can see being against legitimizing is that you don't want NCSoft involved, but you've already criticized people for thinking that way, so I really don't understand what your hangup is.

[jubakumbi]

7 minutes ago, nzer said:

The only reason I can see being against legitimizing is that you don't want NCSoft involved, but you've already criticized people for thinking that way, so I really don't understand what your hangup is.

Because I don't have a hang up, I am just stating my thoughts and opinions on the situations?

Why does there have to be a hang-up?

Did I miss a memo?

 

I am not against NCSoft making a statement or some other type of missive that makes things legitimate, never have been.

I am an open source advocate, I would vastly prefer a situaiton in which anyone could run servers, not just HC with whatever 'deal' it makes.

 

Like many, you seem to think the time spent playing characters is some sort of investment that needs protecting, where I just see it as free time already spent, investment has already returned it's value, the bytes on the server marking the flags that make a character can easily be changed in the database of a new server.

 

As I have stated, for those that have the emotional outlook that the larger the group playing, the more fun to be had, any sort of legal action against the servers will be hard on them.

For those that play with smaller groups of friends or solo like I do, the game will be availble to them as long as the code can be successfully deployed, there are full tutorials on making it happen.

 

And finally, the main thing I was discussing here is simply that the servers becoming 'legit' does not, in anyway, actually make things any more or less stable than they are now.

Servers can dry up and dissappear for a whole lot more RL reasons than a C&D, so people thinking HC becoming 'legit' is some nirvana of permenance would be hanging thier hats on yet another sinlge point of failure, IMO.

[Snarky]

I have studied a little art. Last time i said that someone said i told everyone i was an Art Degreed expert.  I am not.  But i have looked around that area of a couple college campuses and wandered through a few museums

 

so. ALL ART IS DERIVATIVE.  In some cultures In human history if you dont copy enough or not closely enough you are denigrated as useless and handed a shovel to go do other work. You could write Doctoral Theses on where the Hulk or Captain America or Batman have derived from the beginnings of recorded human expression to their current incarnations

 

we have a very robust character generator. But it some ways it is like the fast food restuarant that says there are 10 million possible variations to what they make. Maybe. But in the end it is a hamburger or a burrito bub.  
 

i highly encourage everyone to express themselves fully in CoH/V   But do not get down on yourselves (or others) if what you make ends up a lot like something the Greeks or Vikings or Marvel or DC or Whitwolf has put out before. If you find yourself being chased by representatives of the corporations or cultists of the nearly forgotten gods take it as a compliment. It is not really art until people react to it. Also RUN