What is min/maxing?

[terrasmash]

I have a few ideas as to what this is but I want to understand it more fully. To me is in a blaster getting out the most damage with the least amount of slots? Is this some what right or am I way off?  Info wanted 

[terrasmash]

I have a few ideas as to what this is but I want to understand it more fully. To me is in a blaster getting out the most damage with the least amount of slots? Is this some what right or am I way off?  Info wanted 

[EmmySky]

Minimum slots, minimum end cost, minimum recharge.....max damage, max accuracy, max regen and recovery.

 

That's the way I understand it anyway.

Edited February 4, 2020 by EmmySky

[SeraphimKensai]

Numerically crunching the numbers to maximize your potential output. Typically requires making/using a build, and high end IO set investment to maximize your character to it's potential limits.

[biostem]

30 minutes ago, terrasmash said:

I have a few ideas as to what this is but I want to understand it more fully. To me is in a blaster getting out the most damage with the least amount of slots? Is this some what right or am I way off?  Info wanted 

Generally speaking, (at least in my experience), it comes from games where you can allocate stat points;  Let's say you wanted to be a mage in D&D - you put your highest stat in intelligence and "dump" your lowest points into things like charisma or strength;  You maximize those aspects of your character that are the most critical to your performance, and minimize those aspects with the least impact.

 

Another connotation is to simply play up your strengths and minimize your weaknesses;  Perhaps, as a blaster, you take defensive powers to fill in any holes, and slot others to maximize your damage output at the same time.

 

There are different uses of the term, so a lot depends upon context...

[Troo]

Hmmm I may totally have gotten this one wrong. My min/max explanation would have been:

 

Trying to maximize one aspect of a character to the detriment of other aspects. Example: Maximizing recharge bonuses while ignoring all other or mostly all other bonuses.

[Snarky]

Troo is spot on. You will see this most in say a Brute Fire farmer. 
 

they will take fire armor. And then get i/o set bonuses that max fire resistance. They will get defense bonuses specifically for the mobs they fight. If all mobs they fight use melee attack why get any other defense?

 

they have minimized with a laser focus what they need and then maximized that attribute

Edited February 4, 2020 by Snarky

[DSorrow]

I've always thought of it as minimizing the relevant costs (e.g. slots used) associated with maximizing the wanted outputs (e.g. damage, survivability) so that you get the most bang for your buck. In RPGs there's usually a limited pool of resources to allocate (stat points, slots, etc.) so most of the time you'll have to do what Troo described: choose the aspects you want to maximize at the cost of something else.

[Hedgefund]

"Min/Max" is a term used in a practical branch of mathematics called Operations Research.  It boils down to something like

 

To identify the terms below:

X is an employee

f(X) is revenue generated by that employee

g(X) is the cost of that employee

 

Maximize Y = f(X1) + f(X2) + ... + f(Xz)

Minimize Z = g(X1) + g(X2) + ... + g(Xz)

 

In other words, the objective of this basic min/max problem is "Maximize revenue and minimize costs".

 

All that to set up for the term, as I see it, in this game, at least abstractly

 

Maximize (Your stats)

Minimize (your constraints) 

 

The term "Your stats" is all encompassing and varies by character, of course.

Your constraints also varies.  it used to include costs back on live, but that's not a concern to all but newbies today.  Some are fixed, like number of slots available.

 

 

[oxmox]

Everyone here is giving a solid background on the term, but in my experience "min/maxing" has been generalized to just meaning a highly optimized build or strategy.

 

A min/maxed blaster (or anything else) just means a really strong build for that AT. Typically that includes stacking defenses to get at or near the soft cap and enough recharge to chain together your strongest powers.

[Darkir]

In terms of min/maxing in this game it usually refers to softcapping defense (either 45% s/l/e or 45% ranged/melee typically), then getting as much damage, recharge, and resists as you can (generally in this order). These builds can also include some kind of mez protection or defense debuff resistance, etc. You take the minimum number of attacks you need to complete the highest damage attack chain at your recharge level. You use +5s where they are most advantageous (like using one +5 recharge reduction IO in hasten because you already have like 225% global recharge). You accomplish these things with the minimum number of slots to give the maximum amount of bonuses you are going for.

 

Examples: it is very global recharge efficient to 6 slot a defensive toggle like weave with 5 red fortunes and one +5 LoTG global recharge, this gives you 12.5% global recharge for 6 slots (5 from 5 red fortunes and 7.5% from the lotg).

 

Another very efficient slotting set is 4 basilisks gaze, this gives you 7.5% global recharge, 2.5% energy def, and 1.25% ranged def. 

 

You can also split the corr/def ATO set (scourging blast for corruptors) to get +10% global recharge twice for 3 slots each. So for 6 slots (but really 4 spent slots as you get one for free per power) in two powers, you get +20% recharge. 

 

Hope this helps. Here is a fire/kin corruptor build for fire farming that is min/maxed to the best of my ability. It has softcapped fire defense, capped fire resists, and 202.5% global recharge with one siphon speed. With FF procs, 2-3 siphon speeds, and the ageless, you are running around at the recharge cap most of the time. We don't worry about damage because we know it will be capped with fulcrum shift, so we go for some -res procs instead to help our dmg where it is possible. 

 

Spoiler

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Mutation Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Flame Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Flares -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(17), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(31)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(27), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(39), Prv-Heal/Rchg(40), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(40), Prv-Absorb%(40)
Level 2: Fire Ball -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(3), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Rgn-Knock%(39), Ann-ResDeb%(50)
Level 4: Repel -- EndRdx-I(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(5), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(9)
Level 6: Rain of Fire -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(21), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(23)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(9), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(11), Ksm-ToHit+(42)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Boxing -- AbsAmz-Stun/Rchg(A), AbsAmz-Stun(15), AbsAmz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(48), AbsAmz-Acc/Rchg(48), AbsAmz-EndRdx/Stun(50)
Level 14: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(15)
Level 16: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Blaze -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(A), WntGif-ResSlow(46)
Level 22: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(25), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(27), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 24: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25)
Level 26: Blazing Bolt -- SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprScrBls-Rchg/+End(31)
Level 28: Weave -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(31), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Rct-ResDam%(43), Rct-Def/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Grant Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Inferno -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Arm-Acc/Rchg(33), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Arm-Dam%(34), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 35: Transference -- PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(A)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Consume -- FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg(A), FuroftheG-Dam/Rech(42)
Level 44: Fire Shield -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(45), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(45), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Ags-ResDam(46), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(43)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(34), Pnc-Heal(36), Pnc-Heal/+End(48), Mrc-Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), PrfShf-End%(23), PrfShf-EndMod(39)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Void Core Final Judgement 
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Radial Superior Ally 
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment 
Level 0: Invader 
Level 0: High Pain Threshold 
Level 0: Born In Battle 
Level 0: Marshal 
Level 1: Quick Form 
------------

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Edited February 4, 2020 by Darkir

[Grouchybeast]

Originally it was a mildly pejorative term for paper RPG players who squeezed every last drop of mechanical performance out of their characters technically allowed by the system without consideration for character and roleplaying.  In the webcomic Darths and Droids, Pete is a highly skilled min-maxer.

 

In video games, though, players lack the ability to show up to the game with an obscure handbook and talk the GM into letting them play a broken specialization, and take three flaws that don't actually impact play in exchange for the ability to kill things with their minds.  So in this context it pretty much just means 'I enjoy making highly effective builds'.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[DrBasics]

The term Min/Max in MMORPG games means to build your character in a way that maximizes one (usually the main) aspect at the expense of secondary or tertiary aspects of the character.

 

The general idea is that you can not get something for nothing. When you are building a character in an MMORPG, there is either limited space, set stats from equipment, or both.

 

Limited space example: CoH slots

Set stats example: World of Warcraft

 

So for example, if I was making a tank, and all I cared about was staying alive no matter what. Then I would easily hit the cap on defense, maybe even some resists. From there, I could decide to start Min/Max my character for survivability. I can start sacrificing by avoiding any sets that give +dam and seeking sets that offer +health and Regen.

 

And vice versa if you were to make a character that is pure damage.

 

 

[gamingglen]

It means the person spends more time designing the character than playing it.  😄   

[KC4800]

I dont set out min maxing a whole character, just individual powers. For example, I have decided to give 4 slots to Whirling Mace. How do I get the most acc, damage and lowest endcost with only 4 slots. That's the way I always thought about it. OR do I need 5 slots in Temp Invulnerabilty, how can I slot that with the same effectiveness with 4 slots? Then I have one free slot to move to another power that really needs it. Once I have done that with all the powers, I am min maxed. 

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I've always thought of it as minimizing the relevant costs (e.g. slots used) associated with maximizing the wanted outputs (e.g. damage, survivability) so that you get the most bang for your buck. In RPGs there's usually a limited pool of resources to allocate (stat points, slots, etc.) so most of the time you'll have to do what Troo described: choose the aspects you want to maximize at the cost of something else.

 

9 hours ago, Hedgefund said:

"Min/Max" is a term used in a practical branch of mathematics called Operations Research.  It boils down to something like

 

To identify the terms below:

X is an employee

f(X) is revenue generated by that employee

g(X) is the cost of that employee

 

Maximize Y = f(X1) + f(X2) + ... + f(Xz)

Minimize Z = g(X1) + g(X2) + ... + g(Xz)

 

In other words, the objective of this basic min/max problem is "Maximize revenue and minimize costs".

 

All that to set up for the term, as I see it, in this game, at least abstractly

 

Maximize (Your stats)

Minimize (your constraints) 

 

The term "Your stats" is all encompassing and varies by character, of course.

Your constraints also varies.  it used to include costs back on live, but that's not a concern to all but newbies today.  Some are fixed, like number of slots available.

 

 

These two definitions are the ones I've always used.

 

 

3 hours ago, gamingglen said:

It means the person spends more time designing the character than playing it.  😄   

This one is probably the best, though.

 

[terrasmash]

thank you all for your input and thoughts hope others have and will find this useful as i did

[Olly]

+1 to @Hedgefund's definition.  Maximize your desired output while minimizing your cost variables (aka constraints).  In gaming terms, I've always seen it as maximizing some aspect of your character (usually DPS) given the gear constraints, i.e. number of slots, types of usable IO's, etc.  If you want to be truly minimizing, you might also minimize the time or $ cost of the build.

[Burnt Toast]

Min/Maxing simply means building your character in the most optimal way for performance and survival. 

With a farmer this can be building your character to farm a specific type and deal out the most damage (fire resistance+fire defense+damage).

With other characters it is usually something along the lines of defense/resistance+regen+recharge+endurance+damage/control/buff.

 

I will tell you this though - ignore 95% of the builds on the forums/discord and find a friend who is good at doing builds instead. I find most forum builds to be robbing Peter to pay Paul and leaving your character deficient in one or two aspects instead of trying to maximize numerous aspects of a build. 

[Haijinx]

Pick something you want your character to do.

 

Push the build until you can do that as well as possible within a set of boundary conditions.  

 

For example 

I want my character to do max possible ST damage .. 

 

I will need to figure out the best attack chain for powers that character can achieve.  Then I need to get enough recharge to run the chain, Id also want the optimal +dmg, or procs to go with it.

 

Boundary conditions would be not giving up  too much survival, or Making sure I have enough recovery. Etc.

 

 

[DrBasics]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Pick something you want your character to do.

 

Push the build until you can do that as well as possible within a set of boundary conditions.  

 

For example 

I want my character to do max possible ST damage .. 

 

I will need to figure out the best attack chain for powers that character can achieve.  Then I need to get enough recharge to run the chain, Id also want the optimal +dmg, or procs to go with it.

 

Boundary conditions would be not giving up  too much survival, or Making sure I have enough recovery. Etc.

 

 

Yes, this exactly.

 

To piggy back off of what Haijinx said,

Remember those old school games where you had a bunch of skills for your character:

 

Stamina:

Intelligence:

Agility:

Strength:

Dexterity:

Luck:

 

And if you tried to fill strength all the way up to 10/10, maybe your agility will fall and/or can only be capped at a max of 6 or something like that. It's pretty much the same concept in MMORPG's, but here, it is simply physically impossible to build a character who is good at everything. So what people will do is focus on one aspect of their character and "pimp" that out, sacrificing the other aspects to do so.

[gurugeorge]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:25 AM, terrasmash said:

I have a few ideas as to what this is but I want to understand it more fully. To me is in a blaster getting out the most damage with the least amount of slots? Is this some what right or am I way off?  Info wanted 

It's roughly the same meaning as "bang for the buck."  You have limited resources (points, slots, xp, etc.) so you want to get the most out of those limited resources as possible, not waste any.

 

And usually the best bang for the buck is to further emphasize what you're already innately good at, and forget about what you're not already innately good at.  Play to your strengths.

 

But sometimes there are diminishing returns on that, so when you've done as much as possible to make yourself as good as possible, at what you're already good at, then you can go back and "fill in" stuff you're not good at too, to round things out a bit.

 

That's basically it, in simple terms.

Edited February 5, 2020 by gurugeorge

[Communistpenguin]

I always went with the definition of building a chadacter mechanically to maximize performance/rewards and minimize cost, over building a character conceptually. So for example hasten. It is widely considered a must have on most builds, but it doesnt really make sense for most non speedster characters to have.

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

I always went with the definition of building a chadacter mechanically to maximize performance/rewards and minimize cost, over building a character conceptually. So for example hasten. It is widely considered a must have on most builds, but it doesnt really make sense for most non speedster characters to have.

I don't think Speedster is really a thing when it comes to COX combat.

 

Speedster is more how you move between combats.

 

I rather enjoy perma hasten, it means your long recharge attacks are up much more often, while you can save slots on some powers since they don't need recharge IOs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trogenion]

Generally means minimizing the impact of flaws ext. While maximizing certian powerfull aspects.  Well in games with flaws and the like.