Melee AT Roles

[Snarky]

You threw out a real softball there Bill.  You just checking the oil?  Of course you are right.  Not only do you have years watching this stuff, but, you are right.  

 

More interesting question?  How many peeps will go sideways trying to disagree in some fashion.  Although I do not think you are trolling, so, again, still trying to figure out.

 

Or.  In Char, Snarky my Brute.  "What?  You guys are planning this out?  Okay, I can help.  So you do the controlly thing over here, then you set up your minions and stuff here.  Wait.  I don't give a crap what you do.  I am charging that large group over there with the EBs and AVs in it.  When you figure out a plan send me a letter."

[jubakumbi]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Roles? We don't need no stinkin roles.

I have always liked the cut of your jib, BZB.

So glad you made it back.

 

IMO, the roles are just there for some players that like to know where they should concentrate their energy.

Built with care, every character can now become a real superhero and perform a 'role' of their choice, often without caring about the AT.

 

There is really no reason to force the roles based on AT, just let people play whatever role in the group they like.

I think the DPS/Tanker/Blaster/Support/Control roles are all there, simply in how some people like and choose to play, not rhe AT they use for a character concept.

 

I always Tank. Some call it 'Leeroy Jenkins', I call it Tanking. 😉  

Edited February 23, 2020 by jubakumbi
speeling

[Replacement]

I would suggest folks consider the difference between roles and methods.  Everyone understands that Scrappers, Blasters, and Stalkers all fill the role of applying the "very dead" status effect to enemies, but they do so differently.  

 

This is fine.  So is hybridization and blurring of the lines.  This is the sort of thing, in fact, that you really cannot get out of any game with a "party finder" mechanism, where you queue for a role and you're expected to only perform in that role. 

 

Short version: I suggest not getting lost in the weeds of labeling, or accusing others of labeling.  We all intuitively know all of this.

23 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Tanks should be tanking.

Brutes should be bruting.

Scrappers should be scrapping.

Stalkers should be stalking.

 

With my multiple Claws and SR using BZBs, I have found the following to be true.

 

When it comes to mitigation, Tanks > Brutes > Scrappers > Stalkers.

When it comes to damage output, Stalkers > Scrappers > Brutes > Tankers.

This seems very well balanced. Is there disagreement?

Broadly true, but there's something to be said about the degree of this comparison.  Let's say we were to rate the different ATs on a 10 point scale.  The following is made-up numbers to illustrate a mathematical concept.  It is not true or indicative of the real world.

Tanking:

Stalker 2, Scrapper 5, Brute 9, Tanker 10

Damage:

Stalker 10, Scrapper 7, Brute 6, Tanker 2

 

In both cases, the Brute technically falls in line, but the gap between them and the neighboring ATs is distorted.  They should be a 7 for tanking and a 5 in Damage (again, just for this mathematical model that has nothing to do with real performance).

 

General consensus seems to be that while Stalkers and Scrappers can marginally outperform Brutes in damage output, it's broadly not equivalent to the amount of survivability they give up to gain this edge.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

General consensus seems to be that while Stalkers and Scrappers can marginally outperform Brutes in damage output, it's broadly not equivalent to the amount of survivability they give up to gain this edge.

 

I would have to respond that the general consensus is wrong. And the pylon thread is a great place for data showing that.

 

But so is actually playing each AT with the same sets. As I already have a BZB Scrap, a BZB Brute and a BZB tank, all claws and super reflexes, all I need to do is PL up the stalker and dump 750mil to kit him out.

 

What I've learned, tested and expected so far? Exactly what I stated in the OP.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

On Victory I had a spines/WP scrapper who was quite an effective tank.  When I remade the concept on TB I made a tanker. 

 

On TB I also have an electric/electric blaster who applies one specific debuff consistently, making that character part defender.  So's the water/WP sentinel.  I have a tanker with Quicksand and Salt Crystals that can be used to good effect.  I often play my tankers as melee controllers or anti-controllers, since rather than rooting mobs in place they try to gather them into gloms for the convenience of AoE attackers. 

If someone says "we could use some support" then "my Scrapper has Aid Other" is not an appropriate response.

 

Yes, ATs are flexible. This game doesn't have or need the rigid class roles of other games. But that doesn't mean there's NO difference in what the ATs are capable of.
 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Wavicle

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I would have to respond that the general consensus is wrong. And the pylon thread is a great place for data showing that.

 

But so is actually playing each AT with the same sets. As I already have a BZB Scrap, a BZB Brute and a BZB tank, all claws and super reflexes, all I need to do is PL up the stalker and dump 750mil to kit him out.

 

What I've learned, tested and expected so far? Exactly what I stated in the OP.

That's fair, I like challenging the status quo.  But my point is that what you laid out in the OP can be absolutely true, and yet the ATs could still be unbalanced.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Replacement said:

That's fair, I like challenging the status quo.  But my point is that what you laid out in the OP can be absolutely true, and yet the ATs could still be unbalanced.

 

I would have to argue that it's not the ATs that are unbalanced but rather powersets within ATs. The fact that my claws/bio scrapper can get under 2mins on a pylon while my claws/sr scrapper sits around 3mins while the bio provides arguably near equivalent mitigation is far more of an issue to me that AT balance and roles at this point.

 

I'd have to argue, he says, while recognizing that booze makes me belligerent.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I would have to argue that it's not the ATs that are unbalanced but rather powersets within ATs. The fact that my claws/bio scrapper can get under 2mins on a pylon while my claws/sr scrapper sits around 3mins while the bio provides arguably near equivalent mitigation is far more of an issue to me that AT balance and roles at this point.

 

I'd have to argue, he says, while recognizing that booze makes me belligerent.

Frankly, most of the sets added during the secret are OP and should be nerfed. I doubt they Will be, but they should be.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

When Sentinel damage output barely keeps up with a good defender, how is the Sent DPS? (Note: some combos are very bad, fire/bio and sonic/bio are sick good.)

Frankly, Sentinels need to be buffed so they do more damage (in most cases).

[Bill Z Bubba]

I think everyone knows that TW and Bio deserve the bat in a big way.

[Haijinx]

The rankings are a bit different at the damage cap. 

 

Stalkers fall behind some there, since a good chunk of their damage is all the guasians fueled build ups. 

 

So throw in some kins, etc. 

 

As far as squshiness depends on the set and opposition.  My EA stalker has no issues with 90%+ of ×8 level 54 baddie types.  

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I think everyone knows that TW and Bio deserve the bat in a big way.

People know, but don't to admit.

[Bill Z Bubba]

25 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The rankings are a bit different at the damage cap. 

 

I've seen the damage cap twice since HC went live. I don't consider it a valid point of discussion.

[MunkiLord]

I think what pretty much every change, buff, nerf, game meta, etc, leads to one conclusion: Everyone wants to be a Scrapper. Which is logical, scrapperlock isn't AT dependent or a playstyle, it's a way of life.

 

A tankmage is simply a wannabe Scrapper with a dumb name. 

 

A Tank is a just meaty Scrapper that slap fights.

 

A Brute is just a Scrapper that's pissed about not actually being a Scrapper. 

 

A Blaster is just a Scrapper that's too skinny. 

 

A Controller is just a Scrapper nerd raging online. 

 

A Defender is a just a Scrapper that lost its way and thought about becoming a pacifist in it's 20s. 

 

A Stalker is just a Scrapper that runs away.

 

A Dominator is just a Scrapper that got a little too far in S&M.

 

A Master Mind is just a Scrapper that can't fight.

 

A Corruptor is just a Scrapper that's a bully.

 

A Kheldian is just a Scrapper that is in the middle of a midlife crisis that bought a Mazda Miata instead of a Corvette.  EDIT: Upon further reflection I think the Warshade bought the Corvette and the Peacebringer bought the Miata.

 

The point is, everyone wants to be a Scrapper. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I've seen the damage cap twice since HC went live. I don't consider it a valid point of discussion.

Depends on how many kins you team with I guess.  Doesn't really matter though since at the cap stuff dies so fast who cares who is doing the most.

 

But it might be the Broot.

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

If someone says "we could use some support" then "my Scrapper has Aid Other" is not an appropriate response.

My kinetic/rad scrapper is my healer.  Has the badges to prove it. 😉

[Leogunner]

11 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

So is a tank Support or DPS? When Sentinel damage output barely keeps up with a good defender, how is the Sent DPS? (Note: some combos are very bad, fire/bio and sonic/bio are sick good.) When a tank can solo a max diff ITF, how is this tank then Support?

 

That makes no sense at all.

 

But now we have folks asking for even MORE buffs to this already power-creeped to hell and back game because their particular non-tank can't tank well enough. Or their particular non-blaster can't DPS enough. Or whatever. You get the point.

 

We have tanks that can dish out mighty sick damage. We have scrappers built for control and support. We have controllers out DPSing EVERYTHING. Go read the pylon thread in the scrapper forum sometime for some eye-opening times. Roles? We don't need no stinkin roles.

If you had your answer, why the fuck did you post this thread?

 

Lol you come asking for people's opinion only to turn your nose up "Pfft I don't want your opinion *raspberry*"

 

Goddamned waste of space...

Edited February 24, 2020 by Leogunner

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

A Defender is a just a Scrapper that lost its way and thought about becoming a pacifist in it's 20s. 

Not in 'Nam, of course.

[MunkiLord]

18 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Not in 'Nam, of course.

I was originally going to say hippies, but Defenders shower. 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

I was originally going to say hippies, but *SOME* Defenders shower. 

Proposed fix 

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

If you had your answer, why the fuck did you post this thread?

 

Lol you come asking for people's opinion only to turn your nose up "Pfft I don't want your opinion *raspberry*"

 

Goddamned waste of space...

 

How else do I verify things?

 

Was this guy always like this? I can't remember.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

23 hours ago, Wavicle said:

No one said anything like that, so I don’t know what your issue is.

 

Taking power pool support abilities, as useful as they are, does not make you a “support” toon.

If your toon can support others even to a minor degree, then yes that means they are a hybrid able to provide more then one role. Defenders by design are just that, support and dps. Hence why we can get solo GM slaying offenders made quite easily.

 

Perhaps you didnt mean to say that, but that is how your post comes across, as trying to enforce the idea of trinity game play, and made it sound like building outside of the box was pointless or worse bad building.

 

If my blaster can take point, keep aggro on him, and is also mass murdering and healing himself, while also keeping mobs bouncing, and stunned, what role is he exactly? I know! His role is super bloody hero, that is his role,

[Shred Monkey]

Bill'z OP is accurate.  But the missing component is highlighted below.

 

(numbers made up for illustration purposes)

Tanker mitigation = 99

Brute mitigation = 95

Scrapper mitigation = 85

Stalker mitigation = 75

Minimum mitigation required for 98% of the game = 50

 

So one might ask, from a numbers perspective, why play anything except a max-damage toon?  

 

(note: This is the reason there's only stalkers and blasters in my sig)

 

 

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

Bill'z OP is accurate.  But the missing component is highlighted below.

 

(numbers made up for illustration purposes)

Tanker mitigation = 99

Brute mitigation = 95

Scrapper mitigation = 85

Stalker mitigation = 75

Minimum mitigation required for 98% of the game = 50

 

So one might ask, from a numbers perspective, why play anything except a max-damage toon?  

 

(note: This is the reason there's only stalkers and blasters in my sig)

 

 

Based on those numbers, Stalkers are clearly underperforming and need a(nother) buff.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

How else do I verify things?

 

Was this guy always like this? I can't remember.

Is a pretty braindead way of asking "do the characters I made do the things I built them to do?" 

 

You can make a Stalker tank, you can make a Tanker DPS, you can make a blaster support, etc. If you build them to do that. If you didn't know that already, you don't think that calls into question your credentials?