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Would you like to see Statesman return?

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The whole thing is kinda outlined on this wiki for this game that I know nothing about other than that Tyrant is in it as Statesman:

 

https://masterxmaster.gamepedia.com/Statesman

 

Quote

In 2012, Marcus Cole, the Hero known as Statesman, died at the hands of a villain named Darren Wade. While the heroes of Paragon City carried on, their alliances were tense at best. When Earth was attacked by the Battalion, an alien race bent on destruction, the remaining Vanguard turned to an unlikely ally for assistance. This man put forth an idea; the people of Earth needed a symbol to rally behind. They needed the Statesman.

 

The war raged on and just when it seemed as if all hope was lost, a figure not seen in years flew onto the battlefield. Seeing the Statesman alive and leading the battle, the people of the world rallied and defeated the Battalion. In the aftermath, Statesman spoke to the world and revealed the secret behind his reappearance. While he was indeed Marcus Cole, he had previously been known by a more infamous name, Tyrant, Statesman's doppelganger from Praetorian Earth. The real Statesman was truly dead, but Tyrant had proven his point; a symbol is only as powerful as those who follow it. Still, the experience changed Tyrant, and for the first time since the great wars of the past, the once power-hungry Emperor felt as if he had served a truly noble cause.

 

Even after his actions, Tyrant knew he would never live down his past infamy and searched for a new place he could live out his days in peace. He discovered a connection between worlds much like that between Primal and Praetorian Earths and found himself in a place where people controlled no powers, but had adapted themselves through advanced technology. When Atlas was brought online and began its subsequent reign of terror, Tyrant couldn't help but smile at the irony that the name Atlas once inspired hope in Paragon City. But if a name can change negatively, then one can change benevolently as well. With the return of the Dredgion, the first decisive battle against the Synd was won, thanks greatly to help from forces on the ground. And standing atop the pile of broken machinery, leading the charge, was a man in a polished silver mask with a bright white star on his chest, calling himself Statesman.

I guess that last paragraph about Dredgion is talking about whatever game this is from.

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1 hour ago, The Bobby Llama said:

Not exactly redemption.  By my understanding of what the original devs have said, it would have gone like this:

  1. Earth is losing badly against Battalion, people are losing hope.
  2. Vanguard props up Tyrant as Statesman brought back to life.  I expect he would likely be coerced or railroaded into it somehow.  At the very least, Vanguard would have some way of keeping a leash on him. (If or how Vanguard keeps Tyrant in check is entirely speculative on my part.)  But Vanguard's role would be a big secret that wouldn't be revealed to either the player or Primal Earth until later.
  3. With a new Statesman to rally around, everyone comes together and we beat Battalion.  Yay!
  4. The masquerade ends somehow.  Likely with Tyrant doing the unmasking himself, with a mic drop about how Primal Earth's people had it within themselves to win the war all along.
  5. Ms. Liberty now hates Lady Grey for trying to replace her grandfather with a mass-murdering impostor.

 

Edit: Cites

I think I remember that, yeah.  And looking back on it, yikes.


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13 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I think I remember that, yeah.  And looking back on it, yikes.

Yeah, it's moments like that that make me kind of glad the game shut down? Because if it hadn't, the story would have apparently just started to jump the damn shark multiple times like some gymnastics centerpoint obstacle.

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24 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Yeah, it's moments like that that make me kind of glad the game shut down? Because if it hadn't, the story would have apparently just started to jump the damn shark multiple times like some gymnastics centerpoint obstacle.

This is also the reason why I say the HC team should NOT feel beholden to the original team's ideas for future content. Personally, I'd rather the Coming Storm be a whole series of catastrophes akin to the Praetorian War and Mot happening right on top of each other and the Battalion are just normal invaders and the straw that can break the camel's back unless the Heroes stop things.

 

No need to ramp up the power level with ever more incarnate slots; just too much going on for any one hero to actually deal with at once (good thing its an MMO).

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I agree with that sentiment. I'd rather see one fleshed out, broad and diverse endgame rather than a perpetually ascending ceiling that we call get narrowly funnelled into.

 

I think Statesman's death and the Praetorian war is a great fulcrum for all the existing villain groups to step up their game and make for a really wide range of stories. The Battalion just sounds... heavy handed?

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11 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

This is also the reason why I say the HC team should NOT feel beholden to the original team's ideas for future content. Personally, I'd rather the Coming Storm be a whole series of catastrophes akin to the Praetorian War and Mot happening right on top of each other and the Battalion are just normal invaders and the straw that can break the camel's back unless the Heroes stop things.

 

No need to ramp up the power level with ever more incarnate slots; just too much going on for any one hero to actually deal with at once (good thing its an MMO).

Plus, Mot's given us a mystical incarnate threat, Praetoria is extra-dimensional/tech, so maybe the Battalion should just be good ol' Science and a proper alien invasion?

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12 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Plus, Mot's given us a mystical incarnate threat, Praetoria is extra-dimensional/tech, so maybe the Battalion should just be good ol' Science and a proper alien invasion?

One fun thought on that to reduce the need for new art assets;

 

Part of the lore is that the Rikti dimension diverged because they encountered their dimension’s Battalion early. Their tech is all adapted from the Battalion’s and part of their re-shaping was using Battalion DNA and to adapt to “terraforming” (Battali-forming???) done by the Battalion to Rikti Earth.

 

In other words; the Battalion could be presented as basically Rikti+.

 

Do some palette-swapping on some of the rarer-seen Rikti units/maps (particularly the bigger and more impressive ones like Hro’dotz, Dra’gon and the heavy assault suits... which would be their version of the Rikti’s drones), add some alternate powers reflecting differences from taking a different path that didn’t lead them to Earth until now (I’m thinking Rad Blasts/Melee given that’s what their servants the Shivans have) and finally throw in some Neo-Shivans as underlings (akin to their Rikti monkeys) and you’ve got your Battalion.

 

You’ve even got a good story hook that when they first show up in the skies everyone thinks it’s a new RIKTI invasion only for Vanguard to be blindsided by all the ways the Battalion are different and then when you go check in on the Rikti, they’re all panicking because they recognize the Battalion for what they are.

 

At the same time, the familiarity with Rikti-tech also ends up giving Primal Earth ends up giving us an edge no other Earth had against their Battalion and our exploiting that is the key to victory (one interesting tidbit would be if the astronomical data you find hidden in General Loc’Danan’s armor during Twilight Son’s introductory mission ended up being related to the Battalion and one of the keys to actually beating them).

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Don't forget that there were also plans for Lady Grey to have actually been a Battalion plant, intentionally fomenting hostilities with the Rikti to prolong the conflict.  It's alluded to in the comics, but I believe that it was also said that particular plot thread was abandoned quite a while back.  

Just something to let stew in the back of your brains, is all.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, RialVestro said:

There was suppose to be a redemption of Tyrant where he becomes the new Statesman? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having an Evil Statesman if he's not even evil anymore... unless they were also going to makes Reichman the new Tyrant... I mean technically there were TWO evil Marcus Coles... Tyrant from Preatoria and Reichman from... well basically the Nazi universe where Germany won WWII and Marcus Cole is a Nazi.

As others have noted, it wasn't going to be a "full time" shift, or at least, not as far as it had been previously plotted out.

And IIRC, the trend in the game's story (which was, similarly IIRC, more or less confirmed by the story staff) is that "evil Statesman" was the default.  The Marcus Cole of Primal Earth was actually the exception all along, as "dude with a rather self-righteous view of justice" + "empowered by the literal incarnation of leadership through overwhelming power" = "we're gonna conquer the world and do things my way", 99% of the time.  So in a way, the "mirror" Marcus Cole is the one that died.

Edited by Lazarillo
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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Don't forget that there were also plans for Lady Grey to have actually been a Battalion plant, intentionally fomenting hostilities with the Rikti to prolong the conflict.  It's alluded to in the comics, but I believe that it was also said that particular plot thread was abandoned quite a while back.  

Just something to let stew in the back of your brains, is all.

It was abandoned when the writers realized it made no sense - "she would have claimed Earth’s well long ago were that the case as nothing on Earth would have had the strength to oppose her."  They changed the Battalion mole to Steve Sheridan instead.

Edited by The Bobby Llama
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No, I would not like to see Statesman return.  I have two reasons.

1)  He died.  I simply HATE it when a book/movie/comic/whatever kills a character and then decides to rewrite the past.  I hate that.

2)  He feels to me like a symbol of the game when it was run by a company we don't like.

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12 hours ago, RialVestro said:

I don't think it'll be Scirocco because he's also a former Hero. Scirocco back story talks about how the power he holds keeps being reborn in a new host constantly switching from hero to villain. The current version happens to be a villain but he could be reborn as a hero again. And the Dark Astoria missions kinda show he has a more heroic side to him than most patrons and a desire to change so I really don't see him taking over. 

Correct, the curse alternates so the person taking on the mantle of Scirocco becomes good or evil depending what the previous mantle wielder was; If the current Scirocco were to die & then subsequently resurrected, would the curse flip him to being good?

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On 3/1/2020 at 11:38 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I find that it must be noted that not all of us, possibly even most of us, valued Statesman the way you do. I always found him written to be a pompous and short-sighted fool. So, his death had zero impact on me. His return is of no importance to me.

Pretty much,

 

Don't matter either way.  

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I guess I wouldn't mind.  He's pretty iconic.

 

I feel like HC should be a new chapter for CoX.  Retire the old guard, bring in some new faces, scale things down so they can be built up again, etc.  

 

I say that because the HC devs don't have all that baggage the old devs had, with Jack or NCSoft or anything else.  They can diverge in multiple different ways.

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On the topic of statesman and the LRSF, maybe they can have Miss Liberty (not her daughter, Ms. Liberty, because you already kicked her butt) and she rallies all the Freedom Phalanx to get back up and you have to fight them all again, but this time with a suped-up Miss Liberty to deal with. 

 

Just have her show up at the end and be like "Statesman is dead and you have the NERVE to attack the city? Not on my watch!" And have a more proper "final showdown" akin to the STF.


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1 hour ago, GastlyGibus said:

On the topic of statesman and the LRSF, maybe they can have Miss Liberty (not her daughter, Ms. Liberty, because you already kicked her butt) and she rallies all the Freedom Phalanx to get back up and you have to fight them all again, but this time with a suped-up Miss Liberty to deal with. 

 

Just have her show up at the end and be like "Statesman is dead and you have the NERVE to attack the city? Not on my watch!" And have a more proper "final showdown" akin to the STF.

The problem there is that Miss Liberty was murdered in the same arc Statesman was so Ms. Liberty lost both her mom and grandpa suddenly to violence one right after the other in that arc.

 

We don’t know the status of her father, but given that Miss Liberty was 72 when she died in 2012 and was not mentioned at all in any of the related material (ex. there were in-universe obituaries and news stories about the funeral put up on Paragon Studios website) I think it’s reasonable that Mr. Duncan was likely already deceased by that point.

 

Meaning that Darrin Wade killed off her entire remaining family, but she didn’t go hard vigilante (like Manticore) and instead redoubled her efforts to redeem her great uncle.

 

Which is why I’m actually fairly okay with her stepping into granddad’s shoes because it’s actually in line with her Grandfather and mother’s ideals.

 

For all the crap people give States, it’s worth remembering that his last act wasn’t to try and kill the man who murdered his only child, but to see him brought to justice and sent to prison. He was an inflexible jerk at times, but he walked the walk even when no one else could see him or would have even blamed him for ending Wade.

 

So, as an alternative to resurrecting Statesman, I’d suggest instead that Ms. Liberty get a plot-relevant power-up and costume update (ageless or not, by the time you’re in your 40s, it’s time to lose the mini-skirt) and have her become Stateswoman.

 

Heck, as an added sign of her re-commitment to redemption and second-chances Longbow could also retire its flamethrower units and upgrade the rifles/mini-guns to energy versions with an in-universe stun setting. The flamethrower units could be replaced with guys armed with the Plasmatic Taser AoE cone attack (as per the temp power).

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16 hours ago, Lines said:

I agree with that sentiment. I'd rather see one fleshed out, broad and diverse endgame rather than a perpetually ascending ceiling that we call get narrowly funnelled into.

 

I think Statesman's death and the Praetorian war is a great fulcrum for all the existing villain groups to step up their game and make for a really wide range of stories. The Battalion just sounds... heavy handed?

This was the original idea IIRC along with the Battalion storyline.

 

Both the Council and Malta have gotten hold of Praetorian tech to 'up their game' as it were and become a threat to Incarnate level foes. Malta would clearly use Battle Maiden and her female warriors as replacements for the now destroyed Knives of Artemis (since the Knives of Vengeance basically took over, killing any who didn't convert and then we wiped them out completely in Max's story arc and then wiped out the Talon's of Vengeance later in the DA story arcs) plus they have access to her nanite technology. I mean they're whole gig is 'anti-meta', you'd think they would realize their outclassed by a wide margin with regards Incarnates at this point and invest in more to get their groove back.

 

The Council were clearly gearing up for a second war against the 5th Column (and the 5th Column were doing the same) and I suspect this was to make the two groups more distinct. With Nosferatu and Vandal joining the 5th Column effectively taking their Mekmen, Warwolves and Vampyri for the classic 'Nazis with jetpacks' group and the Council with Arkhan and Maestro bringing more Nictus based units to the fore to replace the loss of the Warwolves and Vampyri with the newly gained Praetorian tech with adding their own versions of the ACU to replace the Mekmen. I imagine both would bring out new anti-Incarnate focused tech to both combat each other AND any heroes/villains that got in their way. Plus more time related shennanigans with the 5th Column since Cimeroria was just 'one of many' temporal strongholds which gives them free reign to go ham on what they can include (and I suspect was the devs way of giving themselves free reign to introduce more 'in the past' zones by having the 5th Column doing a problem in that era).

 

With the Carnival of Light now having completely evacuated Praetoria I imagine we'd see a battle of wills between the two versions of Vanessa (Primal and the Praetorian one mind riding with Desdemona's body) over who controls the Carnival.

 

On the whole I'd like to see a lot of groups that are above street thug level start making use of looted Praetorian tech. I imagine there's a rather large black market industry for selling things like Super Serums (which could have been 'liberated' from many of Berry's labs), Reprogrammed War Work (we see this with Arachnos, Longbow and the PPD already making copies of the Praetorian War Work and putting them into combat) and generally the more advanced cybertechnology that was kicking around (I imagine the Freakshow would LOVE to get their hands on shiny new upgrades 'liberated' from Praetoria).

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I like the Stateswoman idea, 24601.

I do not like the redemption of Longbow idea, though.  I'd rather they remain in their grey area, and the newly-dubbed Stateswoman distance herself from them.

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Posted (edited)

I figure Wyvern was supposed to be the more morally grey vigilante group and with Manitcores darker turn maybe they could get some better funding to add Tactical Arrow to their bag of tricks and move beyond level 20 as a threat.

 

The other part of my thinking is that cleaning out Longbow would actually make a reasonable story arc Blue-side where you actually have to go after the nastier elements and bring them in while Red-side you get a reintroduction to the cleaned up Longbow and maybe perform a jailbreak from the outside on whatever facility is going to replace the Zigg.

 

Sidebar: That’s another huge plot-point; the Pandora’s Box arc revealed they were using the box as the source of the Zigg’s power dampening and that’s gone now. What to do about all the super criminals who can more easily escape is a massive arc all on its own.

 

For a SCARY twist... Malta goes public as “saviors” after a big breakout with the reveal of their anti-meta nanotech (as I recall, the nanotechnology was one of the reasons non-incarnates couldn’t participate in Apex/Tin Mage and unslotted ones got bumped down to level 46). They manuever for control over the Zigg and get the city bureaucrats to comply and then start running Suicide Squad style blackops using the villains imprisoned there.*

 

* Used as an excuse to add metas akin to the Longbow Wardens and signature villains to the Malta enemy group to up their challenge by having more varied bosses.

Edited by Chris24601
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Well, other than Malta "going public," that sounds about right.  More likely that Malta already just has a deep cover agent in the government who spearheads the initiative.  That way they don't give up their (albeit flimsy) secrecy.

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20 hours ago, The Bobby Llama said:

Not exactly redemption.  By my understanding of what the original devs have said, it would have gone like this:

  1. Earth is losing badly against Battalion, people are losing hope.
  2. Vanguard props up Tyrant as Statesman brought back to life.  I expect he would likely be coerced or railroaded into it somehow.  At the very least, Vanguard would have some way of keeping a leash on him. (If or how Vanguard keeps Tyrant in check is entirely speculative on my part.)  But Vanguard's role would be a big secret that wouldn't be revealed to either the player or Primal Earth until later.
  3. With a new Statesman to rally around, everyone comes together and we beat Battalion.  Yay!
  4. The masquerade ends somehow.  Likely with Tyrant doing the unmasking himself, with a mic drop about how Primal Earth's people had it within themselves to win the war all along.
  5. Ms. Liberty now hates Lady Grey for trying to replace her grandfather with a mass-murdering impostor.

 

Edit: Cites

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And yes, Vanguard would be just the organisation to prop up Tyrant (All Hail Our Glorious Emperor!!!!). Their attitude has always struck me as very grim and determined in the name of survival without much thought to what comes after, very much "The end justifies the means".

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On 3/1/2020 at 11:38 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I find that it must be noted that not all of us, possibly even most of us, valued Statesman the way you do. I always found him written to be a pompous and short-sighted fool.

This is exactly why I would want him back.  Back when the original devs had a contest for AE content geared to low level characters, the plot hook for mine revolved around how a temporarily depowered Statesman ended up a prisoner of the Skulls.  The players had to assist Flower Knight (a character who also could stand more development) to retrieve Statesman from captivity.  The big plot twist involved Azuria, driven to villainy over her constant failure to keep dangerous artifacts out of the hands of villains. 

 

(And this is one of several I would republish if I could PLEASE have more than 3 AE slots.)

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On 3/2/2020 at 11:42 AM, skoryy said:

Tyrant as Statestwo: Not really buying it.

 

Tyrant realizing his guiding philosophy led to apocalypse, thinking maybe States had better ideas, and slowly growing into becoming the Atoner while still being himself: That I would like to buy.

I can go for that.

 

But I still want to see Hero 1 back in action.

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On 3/2/2020 at 10:03 AM, Solarverse said:

As long as Ghost Widow turns to the good side, we have a deal!  😄

I would find it more likely the Scirocco would shift alignments rather than Ghost Widow.

 

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