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Upgrade bane

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after opening a topic on the forum of bane, I allow myself to make a small suggestion.
it would seem logical that the bane have slight increases in order to revitalize this class.
the night widows, could obviously benefit from the same increases since the class is ultimately quite close.
the first proposition is quite simple to set up finally, give this class based on the defense ,some protection against defense debuff.
the second, in order to improve the damage and stick to the behavior of a stalker, would be to put in each attack, a component of proc : chance for build UP or hide.

obviously the first proposition is much easier to implement, the second requires more balancing.
with these few elements this At could restore its name.

 

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You're assuming "power" is the reason it's not getting played, though, from the sound of it.  There can be other reasons - for instance, especially on an RP server, having one costume slot taken up by a mandatory themed costume, or having the "crab legs" appear regardless of costume (not recalling if those carry over in alternate non crab builds at the moment, either.)

 

"WHY are people not playing this?" is the first step. (And yeah, for me it's the costume, the storyline which I ignore after level 10 and just put up with until then, and the forced respec at 24 to "choose your path" - even if you're perfectly happy with the way your build is going - see also Huntsman.)


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Bane is very strong, its only issue is the redraw which while doesn't reduce your DPS, feels clunky and reduces your burst damage.

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i would also like to say that both these classes have some endurance issues as their inherents are quite weak and they are fairly toggle heavy.


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2 hours ago, Greycat said:

You're assuming "power" is the reason it's not getting played, though, from the sound of it.  There can be other reasons - for instance, especially on an RP server, having one costume slot taken up by a mandatory themed costume, or having the "crab legs" appear regardless of costume (not recalling if those carry over in alternate non crab builds at the moment, either.)

Widows also suffer of the mandatory costume slot, but they seem on the other hand rather popular, in all their subclasses. The crab legs appear only if you go crab on any of your builds, yes, but those affect mostly people who want also to play crab spider soldier, not so much banes.

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The only thing I wish Banes had was an alternate version of Combat Training: Defensive in Bane Spider Training that gave Melee Defense instead of Ranged Defense. Taking either one would lock you out of the other, of course.


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On 3/6/2020 at 8:26 PM, Vanden said:

Banes really do need defense debuff resistance.

Yes this is the main issue.

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I'd also say that Crabs, over-all are more versatile than Bane. Bane can either go Huntsman build or melee bane build. Meanwhile Crab can go Crab blaster or Craster if you will (ranged AoE build), Crab brute or Crute (Melee focused brute alike), Huntsman (again) or Crab Mastermind aka Crabbermind. So Crab gets 4 alternate but all viable builds compared to Banes 2.

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1 hour ago, DR_Mechano said:

Bane can either go Huntsman build or melee bane build.

I'd argue that part of the limitation(s) holding Banes back from increased build diversity is that they've got power mechanics that are advantaged ONLY by melee attacking.  The whole "surprise attack" mechanic that Banes have from Hidden status only affects their melee attacks, not their ranged attacks.  If the "when attacking from Hidden status" mechanic were broadened out to incorporate their ranged Mace attacks as well as their melee Mace attacks then you'd at least add a sort of Stalker/Sentinel hybrid kind of build style into the (sub)Archetype ... creating a ... Bane Blaster (a Banster??) that would be mildly unique.

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6 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'd argue that part of the limitation(s) holding Banes back from increased build diversity is that they've got power mechanics that are advantaged ONLY by melee attacking.  The whole "surprise attack" mechanic that Banes have from Hidden status only affects their melee attacks, not their ranged attacks.  If the "when attacking from Hidden status" mechanic were broadened out to incorporate their ranged Mace attacks as well as their melee Mace attacks then you'd at least add a sort of Stalker/Sentinel hybrid kind of build style into the (sub)Archetype ... creating a ... Bane Blaster (a Banster??) that would be mildly unique.

Oooh I like that idea of a Stalker/sentinel/Blaster sort of weird hybrid build. Definitely could get behind the idea of putting all of their attacks with the 'attacking from hidden status crit' just like their melee attacks. Hmm since it's a mishmash of three different ATs, I have no idea what you'd call it Banester, Banster, Bantinel...

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I don't know what you'd call it, but I'd play it.


 

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Posted (edited)

Banes are still pretty flexible when compared to most classes, and they contribute a lot of different things to a team (especially -res) while being fairly tanky. As for lacking DDR, just a small amount of it won't help much, and the AT still has 85% resistance caps which you can reach (for S/L at least) on a high-end build alongside softcapped M/R/A defenses.

 

I wouldn't mind making the mace ranged attacks viable, but seeing as Huntsman covers that role already, the lack of a no-redraw option bothers me more.

 

 

Edited by Auroxis

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My Bane Spider buffs proposal;

Heavy Burst and Mace Beam Blast, whilst Hidden, become snipes for critical damage, Heavy Burst being shorter range and longer animation than Mace Beam Blast

Mace Beam, Mace Beam Blast and Mace Beam Volley damage increased to not be terrible attacks (MBB+MBV have lower DPA than Brawl, MB having lower DPA than Archery-Snap Shot on a Corruptor), I would bring them in line with Sentinel Energy Blast's Power Bolt, Explosive Blast and Energy Torrent respectively

Bane Spider Armor Upgrade and Cloaking Device both gain 15% DDR

Build Up becomes Hivemind Empowerment, granting an 80% damage buff and 20% tohit buff for 10 seconds, plus 45% Endurance Reduction and 10% DDR for 30 seconds akin to Energy Armor's Energize
 

This brings the Defense Debuff Resistance to 40% (comparable to defense forward sets which tend to sit at approximately 30%-50%), gives an active mitigation for their end issues which can be made permanent with IOs but is otherwise active when the Bane Spider is most active/powerful, and it puts in plenty more end-game power to under performing powers for build diversity.

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1 hour ago, DR_Mechano said:

Hmm since it's a mishmash of three different ATs, I have no idea what you'd call it Banester, Banster, Bantinel...

Banesterinel

 

They even come with a dev approved BAN(e) HAMMER that they use to "remove $Targets from the community" in game with!  You even get to pick your LART ... !!

 

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A few weeks back I used the second build of my 'Crabbermind'/'Craster' to try out a tanky Bane ('Banky' ?). It has very solid defenses across the board, with middling resistances... but the offense is slower (and feels less effective than) my Energy Melee tanker. The activation times on the mace attacks take longer than the recharge times, even without Hasten! It literally feels like the toon is simply standing around waiting to make attacks. This makes it very boring to play a mace-based Bane.

 

I can tolerate having a tank that doesn't do so much damage, because Tanks get a better Taunt (than the Presence pool's Provoke), and generally get some sort of Taunt aura as well as punchvoke... but I'd like a viable under-lvl-32 mace-build that showcases the Mace as much as the Crab-pack can be used at lower levels (after the initial respec of course).

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Honestly I'd love if the costume maces could be swapped with other melee weapons, ie a sword shooting beams of energy.

 

No redraw would be great, and also if the crab backpack could retract the legs into it if not in crab mode (for those of us who play both crab and babe on the same toon).

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Posted (edited)

I think we're all agreed that a No redraw and opening up the weapon customization pools for the VEATs overall would be massive boost. The problem with Melee Bane is that you can pretty much get a better yet very similar experience playing a Broad Sword/SR stalker, taking the Leadership and Mace Mastery pools.

 

Contrast this to Night Widow which is a sort of Stalker/Dom hybrid and Fortunata being a Blaster/Dom/Sentinel hybrid both with team buffs both fairly unique playstyles and both can (with varying degrees of inf cost) be made to be softcapped to all positions and have a decent amount of recharge.

 

Upgrade the DPA of Bane ranged attacks and give them the 'chance to crit from hide' and give them a bit of DDR. *thumbs up* would be generally a sweet thing.

Edited by DR_Mechano

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31 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

I think we're all agreed that a No redraw and opening up the weapon customization pools for the VEATs overall would be massive boost. The problem with Melee Bane is that you can pretty much get a better yet very similar experience playing a Broad Sword/SR stalker, taking the Leadership and Mace Mastery pools.

Stalkers don't get the -res power in Mace Mastery, and they don't get the other -res powers banes have (total -60% resists, before procs). Banes also have far stronger team buffs and are just as tanky if not more-so depending on the scenario. Bane's AoE is superior as well, having venom grenade+frag grenade+crowd control as a near seamless attack chain that reaches a lot of targets.

 

31 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Contrast this to Night Widow which is a sort of Stalker/Dom hybrid and Fortunata being a Blaster/Dom/Sentinel hybrid both with team buffs both fairly unique playstyles and both can (with varying degrees of inf cost) be made to be softcapped to all positions and have a decent amount of recharge.

Night Widows are just DPS queens with some defense buffs, their AoE is lacking and they don't offer much outside of DPS and +Defense.  Bane on the other hand multiplies your team's DPS while having better AoE.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

Stalkers don't get the -res power in Mace Mastery, and they don't get the other -res powers banes have (total -60% resists, before procs). Banes also have far stronger team buffs and are just as tanky if not more-so depending on the scenario. Bane's AoE is superior as well, having venom grenade+frag grenade+crowd control as a near seamless attack chain that reaches a lot of targets.

Did you not see that I specifically said 'MELEE' Bane. Also...so you're arguing against buffs for Banes? Even if it's a secondary gimmick like 'range attacks can crit from hide'. I mean sure...whatever man, I'd say you're definitely outnumbered by people looking to do something to buff banes overall. Also that attack change is not 'seamless' you have to go through redraw between Gun and Mace between Frag Grenade and Crowd Control.

 

You seem really...intense with making sure Banes are seen as really, really good. I'm going to guess a Bane spider is your main?

Edited by DR_Mechano

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Did you not see that I specifically said 'MELEE' Bane. Also...so you're arguing against buffs for Banes? Even if it's a secondary gimmick like 'range attacks can crit from hide'. I mean sure...whatever man, I'd say you're definitely outnumbered by people looking to do something to buff banes overall.

Are you referring to the grenades? Since while they're not melee powers, their targeted AoE(not cone) nature acts much like other AoE's in melee range.

Quote

You seem really...intense with making sure Banes are seen as really, really good. I'm going to guess a Bane spider is your main?

Bane Spider isn't my main, no. But i did run high performance tests on it (AE farming and Pylon killing) and was overall impressed aside from a few caveats like redraw.

 

Banes are good, and while they have some room to improve there are lots of powersets/AT's that are in more dire need of a buff. I'd hate to see the devs focus on buffing what is a fairly well performing class when stuff like PB's, FF, TA, and more exist.

 

 

 

Edited by Auroxis

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Are you referring to the grenades?

Yes because on Bane Venom grenade and frag grenade come from the gun while Crowd Control uses the mace. This causes a gap in the attack chain because you have to redraw from Gun to mace, which doesn't make the attack seamless since there's a good 1 second pause between the two whilst you redraw your mace.

 

Also nobody is arguing that banes need to be buffed NOW! We're talking about future buffs that could be implemented for Banes. Just because people are talking about things doesn't mean we're going to see the devs suddenly drop everything to focus on buffing Banes.

 

Also Melee Bane is a playstyle that isn't unique to Bane Spiders. It is basically a War Mace/SR stalker (which since Stalkers don't get War Mace, it's nearest comparison is BS/SR stalkers, they operate roughly the same). Crab Spider offers versatile builds with various options and doesn't posses the redraw problem plus everything a Bane can do, a Crab can do just as well if not better. Night Widow and Fortunata also offer unique hybrid playstyles that are a mix of various ATs. Bane if it's not Huntsman, tends to have problems with mixing it ranged and melee since it redraws constantly between the two AND it's 'crit from hide' mechanic only helps melee.

Edited by DR_Mechano

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yes because on Bane Venom grenade and frag grenade come from the gun while Crowd Control uses the mace. This causes a gap in the attack chain because you have to redraw from Gun to mace, which doesn't make the attack seamless since there's a good 1 second pause between the two whilst you redraw your mace.

Well redraw doesn't delay cast time anymore if that's what you're referring to, it just delays your impact. On a high recharge build and an FF proc you're still firing them in rapid succession, might not be seamless but i did say near seamless. You have room to fire web envelope in between to mitigate the lack of threat generation. Or a procced out Disruptor Blast if you really wanna maximize AoE DPS.

Quote

Also nobody is arguing that banes need to be buffed NOW! We're talking about future buffs that could be implemented for Banes. Just because people are talking about things doesn't mean we're going to see the devs suddenly drop everything to focus on buffing Banes.

Well some of the comments ITT put banes in a fairly negative light. I just wanted to chime in from my experience to put things into perspective, not shut the thread down. I even said I wouldn't mind the suggested buffs.

 

 

Edited by Auroxis

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Remove all redraw. Super clunky feeling and annoying.

Trim some animation times, even without draw they are a bit slow.

 

Cloaking device should offer DDR (at least 40%), or be more akin to field operative from blaster devices.

 

Surveillance should have an aoe component to the debuff, maybe half strength on the aoe, like poison. Stats display remains on main target. 

 

Trim the animation on poison ray and up the range to at least 60.

 

Nightwidows are more or less fine. I'd remove the restriction of choosing buildup OR follow up and allow both, just like on a fort because aim w/ gaussian and follow up is pretty good.

I'd also "fix" recharge enhancement affecting mindlink. It should be very difficult to perma on a fortunata, but relatively easy on a widow with the shorter base rech and mental training factored in. 

Remove redraw on claws.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I'd also "fix" recharge enhancement affecting mindlink. It should be very difficult to perma on a fortunata, but relatively easy on a widow with the shorter base rech and mental training factored in. 

As far as I know recharge enhancements do affect Mind Link, you just can't directly slot recharge IOs. Defense sets with recharge and hami-Os will both work.

 

Edit: It just occurred to me you probably want it "fixed" so recharge from enhancements doesn't affect it at all. Personally, I don't see a lot of value in restricting perma Mind Link to 800+ mil builds.

Edited by nzer

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