Buff +Recovery set bonuses

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

I'm not saying that endurance issues should just go away, and you can't find a quote from me in this thread that says that without maliciously paraphrasing it.

 

50 minutes ago, Vanden said:

If you get more and more Recovery, all that happens is eventually you stop running out of endurance.

"Doesn't run out of endurance" is basically just a baseline expectation

And running out of endurance just isn't fun.

 

Noted without commentary.

[MunkiLord]

Nobody is going to prove their point here, because there are just too many variables at play here. And I'd be willing to bet money that not a single player has the data or ability to prove their case. We'd need to be able to somehow semi-accurately demonstrate or predict at least the following:

 

1. What would be the impact to current builds, how many are struggling now and how many would have their problems immediately solved?

2. Current builds that already have good endurance management, what would they do? Just leave theirs builds as is, or respec and try to squeeze out more performance in other bonsues?

3. Related to #2, with set bonuses being on several sets, how possible would it be to simply ignore them in the chase for more recharge or defense bonuses?

4. What kind of impact would this actually have on future builds, both for the average player and people that make end game builds.

5. If recovery bonsuses were buffed what, if anything, would we lose in a possible rebalance of bonuses in multiple sets?

6. How much would this actually help broken builds. Example my StJ/Ice Stalker's end management is so poor it's a broken ass build. The extra .495 endurance a second(if bonuses were 2.5x bigger) would be nice, but wouldn't fix that build. But that's my fault for throwing together a shitty build, not really relevant to the topic because it's so bad that it should be dismissed as an outlier.

 

[Bopper]

Considering Stamina offers base 25% recovery, and the Performance Shift proc effectively acts as a 15% recovery when slotted in stamina, it is interesting that the Ultimate bonus of 4% recovery would mean it takes ~6 of these bonuses to match the inherent stamina, and ~4 of these bonuses to match the PS proc.

 

On the flip side, the Ultimate bonus for defense is 5%. If you could get 5 of those, it's 25% defense for that type. That's roughly equivalent to two Scorpion Shields (defender epic version).

 

To that point, Vanden's request to beef up recovery's base set bonus values is not unreasonable. Or perhaps the reverse should be considered, and other set bonuses (defense in particular) should be lowered to fall in line with Recovery. Eitherway, Vanden is not wrong that recovery bonuses are not balanced in comparison to other set bonuses. Although I do think 2.5x is too much, something like 1.5x seems fair. 

[Infinitum]

29 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Eitherway, Vanden is not wrong that recovery bonuses are not balanced in comparison to other set bonuses.

So now we are talking about nerfing defense bonuses because recovery bonuses are too low?

 

You do realize that's 2 separate things right?

 

Also defense doesn't get a free power like recovery does with stamina.

 

End management is already borderline too easy on any powerset because it basically functions and slots the same across the board because of the free stamina and the other ways to build around end management, you can't say the same about defense on every build.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Infinitum

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

So now we are talking about nerfing defense bonuses because recovery bonuses are too low?

 

You do realize that's 2 separate things right?

 

Also defense doesn't get a free power like recovery does with stamina.

 

End management is already borderline too easy on any powerset because it basically functions and slots the same across the board because of the free stamina and the other ways to build around end management, you can't say the same about defense on every build.

That comment was tongue in cheek. 

[Infinitum]

If we didnt get stamina for free I might be inclined to agree but the free stamina is huge and cant be ignored when considering the scope of how you slot and prepare for endurance management.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

That comment was tongue in cheek. 

Dang my brain is too exhausted for sarcasm.  My bad.  haha

[nzer]

8 hours ago, Redlynne said:

We have.

MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

You just refuse to accept any explanation that does not give you the answer(s) that you want to hear.

That refusal is ON YOU ... not us.

 

Game Over.

Your "explanations" have consisted of nothing more than you saying "this will break things" over and over, without explaining precisely how it breaks things.

 

All endgame builds, per you, currently build to be self-sustainable. If recovery set bonuses were to double, what adjustments could the average endgame build make to take advantage of that? Specifically, the Warshade build you mentioned would gain 0.375 end/sec from the proposed buff. What changes would you be able to make in that build to take advantage of that extra endurance, and how would those changes cause the build to be broken? I'd bet all it allows you to do is drop a slot or two from health/stamina, or swap out a recovery set bonus for something slightly better, neither of which seems broken to me.

 

The absolute most I could see these changes doing is making a build more able to exemplar by allowing it to replace Ageless with recovery set bonuses, which actually sounds like an improvement over what we have now.

 

If you want to make the case that this buff would break something, you have to actually make the case.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

Your "explanations" have consisted of nothing more than you saying "this will break things" over and over, without explaining precisely how it breaks things.

 

All endgame builds, per you, currently build to be self-sustainable. If recovery set bonuses were to double, what adjustments could the average endgame build make to take advantage of that? Specifically, the Warshade build you mentioned would gain 0.375 end/sec from the proposed buff. What changes would you be able to make in that build to take advantage of that extra endurance, and how would those changes cause the build to be broken? I'd bet all it allows you to do is drop a slot or two from health/stamina, or swap out a recovery set bonus for something slightly better, neither of which seems broken to me.

 

The absolute most I could see these changes doing is making a build more able to exemplar by allowing it to replace Ageless with recovery set bonuses, which actually sounds like an improvement over what we have now.

 

If you want to make the case that this buff would break something, you have to actually make the case.

No, we have, you just refuse to see it or cant see it for whatever reason.

 

You are ignoring the obvious whether on purpose or not, who knows.

 

At this point I'm not repeating myself again.

 

If you have end issues on a build send it to me I'll fix it for you.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

If we didnt get stamina for free I might be inclined to agree but the free stamina is huge and cant be ignored when considering the scope of how you slot and prepare for endurance management.

There are certainly more tools freely available for handling endurance, which is why I dont agree to a 2.5x boost. But a small boost nonetheless is not unwarranted. It especially is worth discussing, at least. As the numbers are now, the recovery set bonus is not worth chasing, it's basically a nice little throw in you get when going after real set bonuses. 

 

I will need to look at the numbers deeper and factor in accolades, but I dont see anything game breaking if the base recovery bonus received a small 1.5x boost.

[nzer]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No, we have, you just refuse to see it or cant see it for whatever reason.

 

You are ignoring the obvious whether on purpose or not, who knows.

 

At this point I'm not repeating myself again.

 

If you have end issues on a build send it to me I'll fix it for you.

Nowhere in this thread has anyone provided an example of how the extra recovery would allow them to slot differently.

  

7 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Noted without commentary.

What you quoted doesn't say endurance issues should just go away, but I understand how you could misinterpret it as saying that.

Edited March 7, 2020 by nzer

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

Nowhere in this thread has anyone provided an example of how the extra recovery would allow them to slot differently.

It's not really about slotting differently as much as it is making a strong feature even stronger.

 

Blue bars would never move, they barely move now on most of mine.

[nzer]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It's not really about slotting differently as much as it is making a strong feature even stronger.

 

Blue bars would never move, they barely move now on most of mine.

Uh... you realize there's no functional difference between the blue bar barely moving and the blue bar not moving, right? Adding recovery to a build that's already self-sufficient doesn't change its effectiveness at all.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, nzer said:

Uh... you realize there's no functional difference between the blue bar barely moving and the blue bar not moving, right? Adding recovery to a build that's already self-sufficient doesn't change its effectiveness at all.

Unless you are fighting enemies that affect your blue bar.

[nzer]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Unless you are fighting enemies that affect your blue bar.

Good, keep going. How does the ~0.3 end/sec most builds would gain from this change break the gameplay dynamic of end/rec debuffs?

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, nzer said:

Good, keep going. How does the ~0.3 end/sec most builds would gain from this change break the gameplay dynamic of end/rec debuffs?

Mah gosh you are being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse.

 

I'm not going over this again.

[nzer]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Mah gosh you are being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse.

 

I'm not going over this again.

I'm trying to get you to make a more substantive argument than "buffing recovery set bonuses breaks the endurance economy because I say so," because you don't seem to realize that isn't compelling to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. God forbid we actually, you know, discuss, rather than just shouting at each other.

[Bopper]

I'm always interested in seeing more math. But that's because I'm math-ochistic. I'll see my way out

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.

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unless of course someone shows some math

Edited March 7, 2020 by Bopper

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, nzer said:

I'm trying to get you to make a more substantive argument than "buffing recovery set bonuses breaks the endurance economy because I say so," because you don't seem to realize that isn't compelling to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. God forbid we actually, you know, discuss, rather than just shouting at each other.

Nah I'm good, have fun partner.

[nzer]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm always interested in seeing more math. But that's because I'm math-ochistic. I'll see my way out

.

.

.

unless of course someone shows some math

You and @Vanden have made a pretty convincing case for recovery set bonuses being undertuned, so I think the logical next step here is making some proof of concept builds to explore exactly how larger recovery set bonuses would be leveraged. In addition to @MunkiLord's questions, I would ask:

1. Are there common slotting patterns that can be easily modified to grab additional recovery, and what are the tradeoffs?
2. In what situations, if any, would stacking recovery set bonuses become a viable replacement for Ageless?
3. Does an across the board gain in recovery meaningfully affect the player's resilience to end/rec debuffs? (This is actually a valid concern @Infinitum, though I expect the answer is no)

[MunkiLord]

I think the most immediate impact such a change would have, at least for me, is the potential to slot an extra proc or three in a build. Recovery set bonuses are rarely a goal for me, they are typically just the first bonus on my way to more recharge or defense. 

 

A few builds in which I already have plenty of that, DM/SR being a good example, I will intentionally two slot a few sets for a little bit of extra recovery. If such a change were to be made, is likely try to fit in a few extra procs instead. But I'm saying that without actually looking at any of my current builds, so I anticipate more ideas to emerge if people actually dig into it. 

 

I do agree that this idea isn't really needed. But without more research I find the claim such a change would break the game or over power players to lack credibility. There has yet to be any evidence in how's that's the case. 

 

If it were my call I'd want all recovery bonuses to be replaced with endurance reduction bonuses. That could open up some massive opportunities for me to make my characters more powerful. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Darkneblade]

bumping because it is thursday also recovery bonuses absolutely worthless unless you are using purples.
 

[arcane]

Not an outright no, but, nowadays literally any endurance problem can be 100% mitigated if playing at level 45 or higher due to incarnate options. I have yet to run across a combination that Ageless Core fell short of fixing entirely with a decent build.

For lower content, I just pick a couple toggles not to run if I have to. It’s low level content after all.

 

Just commenting that damn is endurance easier than ever to put up with.

[Omega-202]

Recovery serum is also pretty cheap at P2W, in a pinch.  

 

But to the topic at hand, yes, +recovery bonuses are unnecessarily weak.  On the other hand, +End bonuses are pretty darn strong and compound with all of your +recovery and +end procs.  2 slots of Annhilation or 4 slots of Decimation are pretty easy to work into a lot of builds, especially with great procs in both sets and the 6.25% recharge at 5 slots for Decimation.  

 

I see + recovery bonuses as "cool, that helps a little" in sets I take for other things.  If I need more endurance, I build towards the +End bonuses.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Omega-202

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Not an outright no, but, nowadays literally any endurance problem can be 100% mitigated if playing at level 45 or higher due to incarnate options.

I've never had a character at lvl 30+ who had ongoing endurance problems.  Never mind Incarnates.  But I do slot IO sets as I level

Would stronger set bonuses be nice?  Perhaps.

Do I think they're needed?  No.

 

But I will say the VAST majority of my characters are using a Panacea Proc, and a Perf Shifter Proc, and usually one Perf Shifter:End Mod to go with that proc.

And I do slot for the "end discount to all powers" set bonuses, from Unbreakable Guard, Reactive Defenses, Annihilation, and Preventative Medcine, whenever I can work them into a build.

Edited September 24, 2020 by MTeague