Homecoming Code of Conduct Updates - March 7th, 2020

[tjknight]

26 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Rules exist everywhere in life folks.  You can agree with them, or not.  But, if you choose to violate them, you do so knowing the consequences.  There is nothing draconian here, and certainly nothing that keeps people from playing.  99% of players will go on doing what they do unaffected by all this.  But, for the ones that just can't abide, there are alternatives. 

Agree. Life is rules. Even if you don't like them. *shrugs*.  

 

The streaming rule is a shame though because it's what brought people like me here. I found out the Homecoming server existed because of Positive Gamer's stream. And I suspect I'm not the only one. 

 

Also, in regards to contract negotiations. No matter what the industry, very rarely are the details of any contract negotiation made public, before things are finalized. It just doesn't happen and there's good reason for that. Expecting the HC staff to tell us anything other than they already have isn't very realistic. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by tjknight

[hutokaze]

2 hours ago, sammy6 said:

So for streams that happen tonight. Will they be affected?

I'm fairly certain that "tonight" is chronologically before "tomorrow the 8th"

 

2 hours ago, Ry said:

Bitterness aside, its a good thing the CoC is being updated, it keeps our server safe from lawsuits or any general nastiness.

We don't do logic here. >.>

 

1 hour ago, Sylar said:

but what about people like Positive Gmaer who makes videos based on your server? his income may be affected now

He shouldn't be making money on streams that violate the ToS of streaming platforms in the first place, and was warned that he would be streaming at his own risk.

[starro]

1 hour ago, Sylar said:

i made a legitimate argument against their rules, dont insult me just because you have nothing relevant to the discussion, or the fact that you cant discuss the matter in a civilised manner.

Oh no's you got called out.

[VileTerror]

Even -after- things are finalized in contract negotiations, tjknight.

I'm still legally bound to some absolutely shitty contracts, despite not being on payroll.  And while a rational examination of cost-versus-reward for any number of those companies would say "it's no big deal if the details of that contract were discussed publicly now," I've seen some demonstrably petty shit from executives who takes things like this as personal attacks.

I can't speak to the execs at ncsoft (past or present), since the most "work" I've ever done for them if the Beta testing of City of Villains (like a good share of other players here) . . . but I also would not be surprised to learn that folks with more power and authority than sense over there are similar to folks like that over here.

[ScarySai]

Leave it to the forums to have a massive over-reaction to the most minor of details.

[hutokaze]

1 hour ago, Thraxis said:

as you can tell from the comments here more details and nuance is needed.

If people would pump the brakes on the outrage, they'd instantly have more clarity. It's extremely straightforward.

 

1 hour ago, Thraxis said:

Also if this was always a concern you really should have made this change well before now

Well before now as in.... back in August?

 

1 hour ago, Thraxis said:

the fact that this is being done with no warning

See above link.

 

1 hour ago, Icybubba said:

and then the next thing we know we can't create content on the server anymore.

You can likely thank the DMCA takedown of ssundae's incredible hulk video for that.

 

1 hour ago, Icybubba said:

integral part of the community

Streaming this game was never an integral part of the community on live, j/s.

 

1 hour ago, Sylar said:

but that doesnt i cannot be upset for those whose income was purely based on this server.

Yes, yes it does. Illegal profit from an IP that NCSoft still holds? That's a big no no.

 

1 hour ago, stealthnight said:

Most of the streamer on Twitch are just going to switch to Rebirth server and continuing streaming there

Then Rebirth will probably end up with a legal mess on their hands.

 

57 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Rules exist everywhere in life folks.  You can agree with them, or not.  But, if you choose to violate them, you do so knowing the consequences.

☝️☝️☝️☝️

[psilupan]

2 hours ago, Tax_E said:

I get what you are saying Sylar and I am interested to know as well.

 

One caveat that the streamers need to keep in mind, if they haven't already is that they are breaking Twitch TOS. Streaming a game that is considered not legit at the moment. They are putting their own stream in jeopardy. I definitely don't want to be the negative nancy here either. I wanna know how it's all going, but I doubt they will tell us. Just my 2 influence.

This pretty much hasn't been true since Twitch was purchased by Amazon. They only take down channels they receive DMCA notices on.

 

An example of this is Project M, a competitive mod for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Twitch gaslighted it by removing the Game Title, and then when Amazon took over it was reinstated and no one cared anymore.

 

Ultimately, I think it's a poor decision on Homecoming's part to threaten content creators. I'm perfectly aware the "negotiations" are happening, but they seem less like a negotiation and more being influenced to kill the chance of new playerbase and recurring donations.

 

It certainly echoes the sentiment of past negotiations in terms of never actually progressing forward. There just wasn't a bunch of Korean social security numbers in a leaked database, old character data, and old AE information (that came later) to get the foot in the door.

[hutokaze]

33 minutes ago, tjknight said:

No matter what the industry, very rarely are the details of any contract negotiation made public, before things are finalized

🤷‍♂️ ITT: people that don't understand this.

[Icybubba]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Leave it to the forums to have a massive over-reaction to the most minor of details.

I mean I wouldn't call not being allowed to upload and stream content a "minor detail"

 

Still, now that I've had time to think it over, it is a bit of an over reaction. But it doesn't change the fact that this is a stupid rule, no matter who's at fault, NCSoft or Homecoming. And I would prefer some update to let us know that these talks are actually a thing and not just another shadow that looms over the game. Because of the NDA I don't know how you'd do that, but people don't like NCSoft in the first place and so far all these negotiations have brought is this.

[Alimorel]

None of this really effects me, but I do wonder if unlisted videos are okay. Sometimes trying to explain something to someone halfway across the world is just difficult, and a short unlisted video to show them is much easier. I would love some clarification on that :)

[VileTerror]

My view on it, Icybubba, which is pessimistic is that "Yes, 'the Talks' are on-going.  However, ncsoft's interest in them is merely a calculated marketing strategy.  Not necessarily a smart one or one which will bear any fruit, but I've seen companies do far more stupid things first hand."

 

I'm also a little despondent that so many of the folks in this thread haven't been able to read between the lines of certain posts regarding the Streaming ruling.  I'd spell it out myself, but even that puts some undue risk on certain heads.  The "no owned IP for roleplay" bit is honestly the more seriously impactful, considering the bypass which exists for the Streaming/videos thing.  Not that I advocate trying to bypass the video rule; the consequences might end up being shouldered by more than just the rules violator.

[RaffyPooh]

How about content creators that don’t actively advertise playing on HC? Removing the server name from their titles, covering any signage that may pop up in game. Or will mods go out of their way to cross reference names seen on screen and ban people with matching ones in their database? 
 

Also as to the second rule about impersonating licensed characters. I have a hero using my own name that wears costumes as an homage to some of my favourite heroes/villains/other notable characters but doesn’t actually have any ties to them beyond that. Am I at risk of getting banned for that? 

[Thraxis]

Quote

A Homecoming spokesperson refused to comment on the record in response to our questions.

https://massivelyop.com/2020/03/07/city-of-heroes-homecoming-just-outlawed-video-of-their-rogue-servers/

 

This worries more than anything regarding this, it means there is more here than meets the eye, and its not good

[TwitchViewer]

6 minutes ago, Thraxis said:

https://massivelyop.com/2020/03/07/city-of-heroes-homecoming-just-outlawed-video-of-their-rogue-servers/

 

This worries more than anything regarding this, it means there is more here than meets the eye, and its not good

Exactly.  Reading the Code of Conduct: "Use of copyrighted characters and content without permission is not permitted when creating characters or Architect content. This includes characters and stories from intellectual property belonging to any IP that is not City of Heroes." 

 

One of the most popular used AE missions is reproduced Marvel characters.  If people continue to stream this, I could see Homecoming staff having a hard time policing these violations.

 

So, even if they legitimize the servers with NCSoft, there seems like there could be a bigger issue looming.

[hutokaze]

2 minutes ago, TwitchViewer said:

One of the most popular used AE missions is reproduced Marvel characters

That farm was changed on HC a while ago, so I'm not sure what your point is with that comment.

[hutokaze]

12 minutes ago, Thraxis said:

This worries more than anything regarding this, it means there is more here than meets the eye, and its not good

...... it means they're not allowed to discuss negotiations. 🙄

[Coyotedancer]

12 minutes ago, TwitchViewer said:

Exactly.  Reading the Code of Conduct: "Use of copyrighted characters and content without permission is not permitted when creating characters or Architect content. This includes characters and stories from intellectual property belonging to any IP that is not City of Heroes." 

 

One of the most popular used AE missions is reproduced Marvel characters.  If people continue to stream this, I could see Homecoming staff having a hard time policing these violations.

 

So, even if they legitimize the servers with NCSoft, there seems like there could be a bigger issue looming.

 

If you're talking about the Bloody Rainbow fire farms versions, they were changed quite awhile back. The cosplayers are dressed as all of US now, not as characters from other IPs. It was a really clever fix, I think. And funny.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Eidolor]

Do whatever y’all gotta do, we’re here for you and support any decisions made for City of

[VileTerror]

The Massively article also had a little "between the lines" language in it for those that are following closely enough.

 

I'm mostly confused by all the people in the Massively article's comment section.  Have none of them heard of -organized- crime before?  Of COURSE people use rules when conducting illegal activities.  It protects the people conducting the illegal activities!

[arwenface]

I could be wrong, but I think the issue with the videos is monetization. People who stream and post videos publicly are benefiting monetarily (more views and subscribers leads to ad revenue and such) and it's not hard to see why that's a legally dicey situation. And if that IS the case, then videos posted privately so they can be shared with one another aren't going to be as heavily policed (or policed at all).

 

Personally, I never got into streaming, either as a content creator or a viewer, and it baffles me to wonder why people think it's an 'integral' part of a game that existed before streaming ever did.

 

Also, it's mind-blowing the number of people in this thread who don't understand how long, drawn-out, and complicated legal talks can be. Things like NDAs are just the tip of the iceberg, there's all sorts of dicey legal language that can get you into real hot water if you're even the slightest bit careless about it. One slip could bring everything toppling to the ground, and everything that the HC devs have worked towards so far would be for naught.

 

Regarding the RP characters, I think that's a reasonable rule to enact as well. I've roleplayed a bit here on HC and there have definitely been instances where people put themselves in positions of official power in Paragon City and then use that power to harass other roleplayers. I've seen it first-hand. A rule like this evens the playing field a little more and (GOD FORBID) forces people to be a little more creative with their characters.

[Icybubba]

5 minutes ago, hutokaze said:

...... it means they're not allowed to discuss negotiations. 🙄

They're not allowed to explain if these rules cover screenshots?

[Icybubba]

1 minute ago, arwenface said:

I could be wrong, but I think the issue with the videos is monetization. People who stream and post videos publicly are benefiting monetarily (more views and subscribers leads to ad revenue and such) and it's not hard to see why that's a legally dicey situation. And if that IS the case, then videos posted privately so they can be shared with one another aren't going to be as heavily policed (or policed at all).

 

Personally, I never got into streaming, either as a content creator or a viewer, and it baffles me to wonder why people think it's an 'integral' part of a game that existed before streaming ever did.

 

Also, it's mind-blowing the number of people in this thread who don't understand how long, drawn-out, and complicated legal talks can be. Things like NDAs are just the tip of the iceberg, there's all sorts of dicey legal language that can get you into real hot water if you're even the slightest bit careless about it. One slip could bring everything toppling to the ground, and everything that the HC devs have worked towards so far would be for naught.

 

Regarding the RP characters, I think that's a reasonable rule to enact as well. I've roleplayed a bit here on HC and there have definitely been instances where people put themselves in positions of official power in Paragon City and then use that power to harass other roleplayers. I've seen it first-hand. A rule like this evens the playing field a little more and (GOD FORBID) forces people to be a little more creative with their characters.

Times have changed, social media is apart of a games community

[arwenface]

News flash, it is possible to play a game without needing to stream it. 

[VileTerror]

Excellent first post, arwenface!  Hit so many nails on so many heads.

[VileTerror]

Icybubba, clarification on the new ruling will take a little time.

 

It's kind of like that old trick for telling how far away a storm is by counting the seconds between lightning and thunder.

 

If the Homecoming Team can get clarification on these rules up within 24 hours, it means they probably just had to speak to one another internally.

If it takes the Homecoming Team a couple of days to clarify the rules, then they were probably consulting with a third party who provoked said rules in to existence.

 

Remember:  Reading between the lines isn't necessarily an exact science, but it can offer some wonderful contextual clues that lead us to reasonable assumptions.  An assumption is still an assumption, of course, but puzzling out the reality of a situation can be a great balm for a troubled mind.