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Damage Procs and PPM tweaks or changes - Suggestion thread

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bopper said:

After getting to reread Phil "Synapse" initial proposal for PPM mechanics again, I was reminded of a few things I forgot to mention with my initial post.

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

That is exactly why. The argument was people wanted to be able to control their expected performance without having other players negatively impact it with their buffs.

Right, and worth noting that Synapse reversed his proposal to include recharge buffs (including IO bonuses) in the formula a mere three hours later.

 

I don't think that proposal should carry much weight, in other words.  If the HC devs think it's a good idea on its own merits, then sure; it's their game, but Synapse clearly wasn't attached to it.  That he said it therefore isn't all that relevant.

Edited by Obitus

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7 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Right, and worth noting that Synapse reversed his proposal to include recharge buffs (including IO bonuses) in the formula a mere three hours later.

 

I don't think that proposal should carry much weight, in other words.  If the HC devs think it's a good idea on its own merits, then sure; it's their game, but Synapse clearly wasn't attached to it.  That he said it therefore isn't all that relevant.

Certainly, he had reasons for incorporating the communities suggestions. The only thing we know for certain is we never saw this implementation in action despite it having the closest thing to a mathematically justified concept. 

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Posted (edited)

Regarding "mathematically justified", I think the low damage power use cases need to be taken into consideration. After all, abusing procs in a slow recharging high damage power isn't the same as abusing procs in a slow recharging low damage power.

 

I think the most egregious example is a hold power like Char(Epic pool), which can be beefed up to have about the same DPA as a fully enhanced and decently procced Knockout Blow on the same Brute with Rage and Fury.

Edited by Auroxis

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Regarding "mathematically justified"

Justified in the sense the devs wanted a system where procs would occur at an average rate (PPM). But to your example, let's say we proc out these 32s single target hold powers. They would still proc often, as a 3.5 PPM proc only requires 15.43s of cast + cooldown to still hit 90% proc probability. But assuming a cast time of 1.07s, that would require the total recharge of the hold power would have to be less than 222.8% (100% from base, the other 112.8% from enhancements + global). That's not much in a game dominated by perma Hasten (+70%) and set bonuses. Even if you dont slot enhanced recharge, you probably wont keep it capped at 90% probability.

 

So although those epic powers will still be able to abuse the system in the sense their base recharge is so large, the incorporation of using total recharge would limit that exploit.

 

Edit: Just an additional comment since I like showing my point with numbers. Let's assume you are perma Hasten, and thus you have ~180% global recharge. What would the proc probability be for Char if it's not slotted with any recharge?

3.5 * (1.07 + 32/2.8) / 60 = 72.9%

 

The 4.5 PPM will still be capped in this scenario.

 

So although it's still beefy, it is only doing 81% of the damage it does now... and likely isn't fired as often.

Edited by Bopper
Updated numbers to reflect Char


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Don't forget about Knockout Blow, which using your formula gains even less of an advantage than before in comparison.

 

Spitballing numbers as i don't have time for exact math at the moment, but a proc in KoB is worth like 0.5 damage SO's while a proc in Char is worth like 4 damage SO's.

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4 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Don't forget about Knockout Blow, which using your formula gains even less of an advantage than before in comparison.

 

Spitballing numbers as i don't have time for exact math at the moment, but a proc in KoB is worth like 0.5 damage SO's while a proc in Char is worth like 4 damage SO's.

That's a different philosophical discussion to have, as proc effects are independent of the power it is used in. I havent gone too much out of my way to look at low damage powers using procs to make them good. The only goal I chase is to maximize the frequency of procs firing, using any power at my disposal. That analysis folds into my attack DPS to find optimization.

 

But if someone wants to use Touch of Nictus in Twilight Grasp, I wont sweat the fact that is equivalent to infinite number of Damage SOs. It's still just 71.75 damage

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bopper said:

That's a different philosophical discussion to have, as proc effects are independent of the power it is used in. I havent gone too much out of my way to look at low damage powers using procs to make them good. The only goal I chase is to maximize the frequency of procs firing, using any power at my disposal. That analysis folds into my attack DPS to find optimization.

 

But if someone wants to use Touch of Nictus in Twilight Grasp, I wont sweat the fact that is equivalent to infinite number of Damage SOs. It's still just 71.75 damage

yeah the whole point of procs is that they're agnostic about the power's damage. 

 

Either you think the proc damage at a given level of recharge is reasonable, or you think it isn't.  Whether you attach that proc damage to a high-damage power or not doesn't matter, because the procs contribute the same amount regardless.

 

I'll also point out, again, that if you gut the proc damage on powers like Char, then you're also hurting high-damage ATs.  Ranged Blasters basically need a procced out Char (or an analogue, like Ice Arrow) to compete with melee ATs in single-target DPS, as crazy as that sounds.  It isn't as if the current system is a boon only to low damage ATs who should "get back in their damn lane," or whatever, as the earlier discussion about Defenders vs Corruptors implied.

 

If the complaint is simply that the benefits of damage procs are too unevenly applied, then that's reasonable, but it's also something you could address by, say, making more damage procs available to different power types.   You don't have to redo the whole formula.

 

And if we're complaining on behalf of Brutes specifically, it's worth noting that Brutes have intrinsic advantages when it comes to damage proc slotting: their defenses make it easier to justify skimping on defensive IO set bonuses, and Fury makes skimping on damage slotting easier to justify.  On top of that, melee damage powers tend to have more proc options than ranged attack powers do.

 

To use Auroxis' example, KO Blow is an absolute beast under the current proc system; it can slot two purple damage procs and Force Feedback - and it has a long enough base recharge timer to fire the latter consistently.  Super Strength as a whole set benefits immensely from proc slotting, and not just because procs allow SS builds to do more than stand around holding their genitals during Rage crashes.

 

One of the things that concerns me about any wholesale change to the proc system is that the proc system currently allows players to compensate for a lot of major, long-standing and frankly unexplainable inter-AT and inter-powerset DPA disparities, particularly with regard to ranged damage dealers of all stripes.  I guess this is just a different way of saying what I did earlier, that procs give us build flexibility, but allow me to reframe it:

 

I'd rather have a slightly broken system that allows smart players to make bad powersets sing, than a less broken system that leaves subpar powersets out in the cold, waiting for a comprehensive balance pass that may never come.

 

 

Edited by Obitus
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Obitus said:

I'd rather have a slightly broken system that allows smart players to make bad powersets sing, than a less broken system that leaves subpar powersets out in the cold, waiting for a comprehensive balance pass that may never come.

That sounds like CoH, in a nutshell. If you think about it from a systems standpoint, it's busted as hell, but it's busted in just the right spots that it kind of works out. I remember reading an article by a dev for... AC1 or AC2? Anyways, he originally was pursuing numerical balance to the furthest extent, but players hated it. Some players sought out weaker characters for a challenge while others enjoyed stronger characters for more obvious reasons. So I agree with @Obitus, I'd rather have a somewhat flawed system than one that takes away options from weaker sets.

 

2 hours ago, Auroxis said:

I think the most egregious example is a hold power like Char(Epic pool), which can be beefed up to have about the same DPA as a fully enhanced and decently procced Knockout Blow on the same Brute with Rage and Fury.

On the other hand, damage buffs will still help boost KO Blow, while they won't do much for Char.

Edited by Sarrate
Posted too early via a... keybind?! What button combo what is?
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On 3/15/2020 at 8:33 PM, Sarrate said:

That sounds like CoH, in a nutshell. If you think about it from a systems standpoint, it's busted as hell, but it's busted in just the right spots that it kind of works out. I remember reading an article by a dev for... AC1 or AC2? Anyways, he originally was pursuing numerical balance to the furthest extent, but players hated it. Some players sought out weaker characters for a challenge while others enjoyed stronger characters for more obvious reasons. So I agree with @Obitus, I'd rather have a somewhat flawed system than one that takes away options from weaker sets.

 

On the other hand, damage buffs will still help boost KO Blow, while they won't do much for Char.

Exactly, procs already have opportunity costs, and are not guaranteed either. I think the current system is fine for how it is and shouldn't be touched any further. The POINT of the procs is to help out the sets and powers that don't do what you want them to do on their own. IE like the damage in Char. Any other nerf to them and they would be completely useless for the most part.

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