Titan Weapons Discussion

[Septipheran]

On 3/14/2020 at 12:42 PM, JayboH said:

The numbers being arranged properly, as you put it, doesn't necessarily mean their characters aren't fun anymore either.

In this case, my buddy's main just took a drudging. First the Fade nerfs, now this... He's completely dejected. Meanwhile, Titan Weapons continues to exist. It's a head scratcher to say the least. 

 

(Edited by GM Tahquitz: This discussion was part of General Feedback, but is not a part of Page 5 at all.  It's been split off of the feedback threads to keep going here.)

[JayboH]

Just now, Septipheran said:

In this case, my buddy's main just took a drudging. First the Fade nerfs, now this... He's completely dejected. Meanwhile, Titan Weapons continues to exist. It's a head scratcher to say the least. 

My understanding is that TW isn't OP unless you sacrifice everything for godlike recharge - and using something you consider OP as an argument to keep other things imbalanced on purpose is a head-scratcher too.

[Septipheran]

2 minutes ago, JayboH said:

My understanding is that TW isn't OP unless you sacrifice everything for godlike recharge - and using something you consider OP as an argument to keep other things imbalanced on purpose is a head-scratcher too.

Your understanding is wrong. In order for anything to be good, you have to build it properly of course. That's how all MMO's work. You can't run around WoW with no gear on and expect to perform well either.

 

You obviously don't have an inkling of understanding of how OP Titan Weapons is. If you did, you wouldn't be making the comments you are. I don't think continuing to engage with you is going to be productive so I'm going to stop right here. I came here to post my feedback, not argue with forum crusaders.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Septipheran

[JayboH]

Just now, Septipheran said:

Your understanding is wrong. In order for anything to be good, you have to build it properly of course. That's how all MMO's work. You can't run around WoW with no gear on and expect to perform well. 

 

You obviously don't have an inkling of understanding of how OP Titan Weapons is. If you did, you wouldn't be making the comments you are. I don't think continuing to engage with you is going to be productive so I'm going to stop right here. I came here to post my feedback, not argue with forum crusaders.

Would you like to have a discussion where you explain how OP it is, and why it's a reason the proper rebalances shouldn't occur?  I'm open-minded, I like to learn, please, I want to understand.

[Doomrider]

2 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Would you like to have a discussion where you explain how OP it is, and why it's a reason the proper rebalances shouldn't occur?  I'm open-minded, I like to learn, please, I want to understand.

Go visit the Scrapper sub-forum... plenty of evidence there, I don't think you'll need a tutor.

[JayboH]

Just now, Doomrider said:

Go visit the Scrapper sub-forum... plenty of evidence there, I don't think you'll need a tutor.

I very much doubt it - unless you aren't including the part about using the set as reasoning to discard proper rebalances discussed here for other sets, which is my main question.

[Septipheran]

1 minute ago, JayboH said:

I very much doubt it - unless you aren't including the part about using the set as reasoning to discard proper rebalances discussed here for other sets, which is my main question.

Yes, let's take a game that started development in 1998 and fix "bugs" that persisted for the entire time that it was commercially available. That sounds like a more productive use of dev time than nerfing the set that is so OP, someone soloed an Incarnate Trial with it. Makes sense.

[Doomrider]

Just now, JayboH said:

I very much doubt it - unless you aren't including the part about using the set as reasoning to discard proper rebalances discussed here for other sets, which is my main question.

Oh you didn't hear? The change to tar patch wasn't for rebalancing... no no... it's a "bug-fix".

Also I don't know what you've got to doubt, it's already been proven that TW is a clear outlier by a large margin, just because you don't know it, doesn't make it not true. No one's trying to go to bat here for TW btw... we're just pointing out what's been tested and proven by the Scrapper community. You want to know more, well we've pointed you in the best direction where you can find that information.

[JayboH]

Just now, Septipheran said:

Yes, let's take a game that started development in 1998 and fix "bugs" that persisted for the entire time that it was commercially available. That sounds like a more productive use of dev time than nerfing the set that is so OP, someone soloed an Incarnate Trial with it. Makes sense.

Keep imbalance because you are used to it?

[JayboH]

Just now, Doomrider said:

Oh you didn't hear? The change to tar patch wasn't for rebalancing... no no... it's a "bug-fix".

Also I don't know what you've got to doubt, it's already been proven that TW is a clear outlier by a large margin, just because you don't know it, doesn't make it not true. No one's trying to go to bat here for TW btw... we're just pointing out what's been tested and proven by the Scrapper community. You want to know more, well we've pointed you in the best direction where you can find that information.

Yes, I figured the forum was not going to have anything to do with explaining how TW being OP is a reason to not rebalance powers in this thread with their proper AT modifiers, just like I mentioned earlier as my main question.

 

It can be called a bug, no doubt - they weren't set to their proper AT numbers.  We are speaking the same language there.  It kind of makes me want to check Traps, which has quite a few pets, to see if they have proper AT modifiers.

[Doomrider]

2 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Yes, I figured the forum was not going to have anything to do with explaining how TW being OP is a reason to not rebalance powers in this thread with their proper AT modifiers, just like I mentioned earlier as my main question.

 

 

I think you missed the ship pal. It's fine... just carry on.
 

[JayboH]

26 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

I think you missed the ship pal. It's fine... just carry on.
 

I have been very specific in my posts for a reason.  I get it and I've been intentionally ignoring it:  You both want to keep the OP numbers you've enjoyed all these years and the argument for keeping it imbalanced is because you really enjoy being OP but want to use nostalgia as a reason and want to use TW being OP as a reason for either keeping Fade and Tar Patch with their OP numbers or by using it as a reason to rebalance TW.

 

I saw the F bomb you dropped on the devs and I am specifically choosing a different approach towards both of you.

[Septipheran]

9 minutes ago, JayboH said:

I have been very specific in my posts for a reason.  I get it and I've been intentionally ignoring it:  You both want to keep the OP numbers you've enjoyed all these years and the argument for keeping it imbalanced is because you really enjoy being OP but want to use nostalgia as a reason and want to use TW being OP as a reason for either keeping Fade and Tar Patch with their OP numbers or by using it as a reason to rebalance TW.

 

I saw the F bomb you dropped on the devs and I am specifically choosing a different approach towards both of you.

Dark Miasma wasn't even the most OP support set in the game before these nerfs. Nothing about it was game breaking in any way. You've targeted me since I posted here, relentlessly responded to everything I said and misrepresented my position multiple times. And you wonder why no one wants to engage with you. You don't need every other post to be yours, can you please just chill out a bit? It's fine that you don't agree with my opinion or Doom's, you've let that be known. Please give it a rest already.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Septipheran

[Zeraphia]

54 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Yes, I figured the forum was not going to have anything to do with explaining how TW being OP is a reason to not rebalance powers in this thread with their proper AT modifiers, just like I mentioned earlier as my main question.

 

It can be called a bug, no doubt - they weren't set to their proper AT numbers.  We are speaking the same language there.  It kind of makes me want to check Traps, which has quite a few pets, to see if they have proper AT modifiers.

Sir, you do not need to build "godlike recharge" as you previously stated, the highest DPS surge in a TW rotation is to get a second Follow Through in your momentum swing which is roughly iirc, 250% recharge (about 100% from ED, there is Hasten which alone is 170%, so you really only need to come up with 80% recharge from IOing, Agility makes this even easier). On Scrappers, this set regularly recharges the 400-600+ DPS range without additional inspirations, Kinetic boosts, etc.

 

People are not saying TW is in itself a complete reason to not rebalance other powers, but they are pointing out flaws in the logic to do so when other powers are not known to be outliers that are nearly as "broken" or "imbalanced" as TW is against the melee sets, given a "rebalance" pass. 

 

I do not believe you have this correct because I do not think that these powers were given incorrect AT numbers, I believe the power was set the way it was because they wanted the power to function properly across ATs to where it was used as a viable power choice. They had the opportunity with Dark Miasma as @ROBOKiTTY pointed out to nerf the values then and refused to in 2012 before sunset*. People have now built around the numbers that these builds/sets have. IO's and sets that once were used for builds will now likely be affected and Dark Miasma will likely have a cascading effect on lots of builds, if you change even one power in a set, yes you can indeed make the entire set suffer a dramatic decline in its performance (said set can be made to where the numbers have made IOing it completely unfeasible, you have to reallocate slots to other powers that are weaker, you get a lesser return on investment for IOing the set, certain bonuses that allowed to reach caps can be affected by having to overspend on certain powers to make them "usable" again, etc.)

 

Also, @Doomrider's f-bomb wasn't directed toward the Devs themselves it was a more "reaction" he didn't state anywhere in his post the direction toward devs, anyone in particular, he only said "what is this, are you kidding me."

Edited March 14, 2020 by Zeraphia

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Sir, you do not need to build "godlike recharge" as you previously stated, the highest DPS surge in a TW rotation is to get a second Follow Through in your momentum swing which is roughly iirc, 250% recharge (about 100% from ED, there is Hasten which alone is 170%, so you really only need to come up with 80% recharge from IOing, Agility makes this even easier). On Scrappers, this set regularly recharges the 400-600+ DPS range without additional inspirations, Kinetic boosts, etc.

 

People are not saying TW is in itself a complete reason to not rebalance other powers, but they are pointing out flaws in the logic to do so when other powers are not known to be outliers that are nearly as "broken" or "imbalanced" as TW is against the melee sets, given a "rebalance" pass. 

 

I do not believe you have this correct because I do not think that these powers were given incorrect AT numbers, I believe the power was set the way it was because they wanted the power to function properly across ATs to where it was used as a viable power choice. They had the opportunity with Dark Miasma as @ROBOKiTTY pointed out to nerf the values then and are refusing to now. People have now built around the numbers that these builds/sets have. IO's and sets that once were used for builds will now likely be affected and Dark Miasma will likely have a cascading effect on lots of builds, if you change even one power in a set, yes you can indeed make the entire set suffer a dramatic decline in its performance (said set can be made to where the numbers have made IOing it completely unfeasible, you have to reallocate slots to other powers that are weaker, you get a lesser return on investment for IOing the set, certain bonuses that allowed to reach caps can be affected by having to overspend on certain powers to make them "usable" again, etc.)

This is likely true, and I am all for changing abilities to proper rebalanced numbers even if it breaks builds as long as they come with freespecs like the original devs had done several times before the shutdown.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

How does -40% swings in key survive-ability aspects sound?

Sounds like something that needs to be tested in actual play.

[Apparition]

I just want to say that this thread is a perfect example of why Titan Weapons and procs need to be nerfed much sooner than later.  People become entitled to them.  The longer you wait to nerf something, the bigger the backlash.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

I just want to say that this thread is a perfect example of why Titan Weapons and procs need to be nerfed much sooner than later.  People become entitled to them.  The longer you wait to nerf something, the bigger the backlash.

Same thing for the instant travel cheat command, really.

 

I'd still argue that getting attached to how tar patch works is more justified than say, FOTM rolling to TW/bio and not expecting the inevitable nerf.

Edited March 14, 2020 by ScarySai
Caught a typo.

[Caulderone]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I just want to say that this thread is a perfect example of why Titan Weapons and procs need to be nerfed much sooner than later.  People become entitled to them.  The longer you wait to nerf something, the bigger the backlash.

 

Just now, ScarySai said:

Same thing for the instant travel cheat command, really.

 

Yup.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

Stop. Nerfing. Things!

 

Stop god damn nerfing things until half the sets in this game aren't trash. Fix things that aren't working well because they suck, then worry about toning down things that are powerful but not broken.

 

Just stop it.

 

10 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The longer you wait to nerf something, the bigger the backlash.

 

[skoryy]

13 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I just want to say that this thread is a perfect example of why Titan Weapons and procs need to be nerfed much sooner than later.  People become entitled to them.  The longer you wait to nerf something, the bigger the backlash.

The bigger the forum drama.  And the forums aren't the game.

[Veracor]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

What if the maker of the set wants it nerfed because they realized they <bleeped> up big time?

I hope when it comes to TW nerfs, you mostly hit the set on Scrappers and Bio / Offensive Adaptation, because TW is nowhere near as broken on Brute and Tanker as it is on Scrapper (and especially on Tanker, because we taunt and spend some of our Momentum time on repositioning).

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Veracor said:

TW is nowhere near as broken on Brute and Tanker as it is on Scrapper (and especially on Tanker, because we taunt and spend some of our Momentum time on repositioning).

That is true

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Infinitum said:

EM says hello.  That's exactly why nerfs SHOULDNT be overdone and in force. Thats not like GDN or ED which was necessary for the game to progress IMO.

 

Nerfs like EM removed the fun from the set, which honestly wasnt game breaking even though it was OP.  It wasn't game breaking because it had crap AOE but made up for it in ST.

EM nerfs were archaic and heavy handed yes, as we talked about it seems to have been done due to EM Stalkers in PvP... but due to the engine at the time it was a blanket nerf instead of a PvP  /Stalker only nerf.

Just now, Infinitum said:

 

I could care less about TW but like a lot of people I think it needs to be OP based on how it functions, blooms late, and is rough on end.  The significant changes line is concerning, because it's only significantly OP in one scenario when paired with bio on Scrappers.

 

Nuke that does it make it unplayable for tanks and brutes? Or does it make the scrapper version not fun anymore?  That scenario should be avoided if Homecoming wants to survive - and that's not a threat, just an observation because it appears we are staring down the barrel of a huge nerf package coming up however you want to slice it may not be the best idea.

 

I can't wait to see what is in store for EM though.

As my infamous thread said before, I think it really only needs a slap on the wrist. It overperforms even on SO's and with a secondary that gives only basic protections. The damage per swing was adjusted beyond what the basic formula says it should have anywhere from 15-50% more damage, which combined with how you will be swinging fast attacks more than half the time leads to it being objectively overperforming. 

What could be done in response is just tone the damage down a smidge but then rebalance the end cost / etc by an equal smidge to make the lower lvl (both in player ability and actual lvl) gameplay smoother, but reign in the top performance while still being an awesome set.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What could be done in response is just tone the damage down a smidge but then rebalance the end cost / etc by an equal smidge to make the lower lvl (both in player ability and actual lvl) gameplay smoother, but reign in the top performance while still being an awesome set.

But is toning down damage on the tank side the answer? Because TW didnt get any increases from the tank patch right?