Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[Chance Jackson]

9 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

You don’t need to be an armchair game designer to know that judgement is completely broken. How can Lore pets have a 900s cooldown and yet an AoE power that kills all minions and lieutenants (even at +3) is 90s? Did someone miss a zero? There is a reason it is so controversial, because people create entire characters like controllers, defenders and tankers to deal with those mobs that were just killed in 1 hit. So for them, it’s not fun. Not everyone plays a blaster, brute, or scrapper. 
 

So I actually like incarnates, even judgement, which is why I made a benign suggestion in here on how to compromise by creating more difficult game modes or options to remove judgement from a TF in exchange for something (heck, anything!). It wouldn’t effect anyone who didn’t opt in.
 

This ain’t some weird niche opinion, like you try to make out. People play games on hard modes all the time. Not everyone likes to play on very easy; they want a challenge. That’s why they make finely tuned characters. That’s why a lot of people play games on hard mode, or hardcore mode, or crushing mode, both on pc or console. You don’t buy a great car to drive around at 30mph forever. 
 

If anything CoH is an old game and plenty know what they’re doing. Creating some harder game modes to really challenge vets would be really fun. So an option to play without judgement would be well received, and there is scope for much more. It would make the game even better.
 

To be honest smug suggestions that people just form groups and order everyone to not use incarnate powers is either failing to understand human behaviour in the extreme, or a useless suggestion aimed to placate, fully aware it will do nothing. So I think I’ve said all I want to say on this topic.

Not sure I've seen judgement 1 shot an even level lt without major -res being applied never mind a +3 lt

 

And lore is a different beast that can help solo AVs & GMs

[golstat2003]

On 3/26/2020 at 9:20 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

 

The biggest takeaway IMO is that feeling when you are close to 50 on 50 teams, and experience the significant gap. Unfortunately as other have said, the genie is out of the bottle more or less in terms of altering Judgement / Lore / Destiny without probable huge backlash. Heck, I was on an ITF yesterday with my lvl 48 blaster, with minimal IO slotting (90% generics, 1 perf shifter, a few force feedbacks and that's about it) and managed to keep up but had several others talk about how they would have rather played their decked out incarnate characters to make the mission easier / keep up with the incarnate team members. The sentiment is definitely there in the Incarnate's favor in that people do enjoy being more powerful, but then again it is so easy to achieve that it creates a false sense of what the game actually is about.

 

🤷‍♂️

ehhhhhh let's be fair, an IO'd to the gills toon IMO is MUCH easier to attain than incarnates. Especially if you farm/play the market. I can do it in less than a week on a new 50. Incarnates, not so much.

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Seems to me there are several people in these kinds of threads who would happily give up using their Incarnate abilities when playing with other like minded folk.  So PM each other, set up a group and go have all the fun you want the way you want.  Zero development time required and zero impact to anyone else.

Yep. Seems to me there are plenty of folks who would be willing to play with tf options or exemping below the point of incarnate power availability.

[reib]

7 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

There is nothing stopping you from doing this.  Do not create or slot any incarnate powers.  Team up with others like those in this very thread who agree with you and go have all the fun you want.  Your problem is solved.  Again, this is not a game problem, it is a you problem.

Can i Say wath i like, wath i dont and wath i dreaming for? If you dont like my Dreams It Is a you problem.

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, reib said:

Can i Say wath i like, wath i dont and wath i dreaming for? If you dont like my Dreams It Is a you problem.

Of course you can.  That is what these forums are for.  I am simply providing a solution already freely available to you for you and others to make your wishes come true. 

[Naraka]

9 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

There is absolutely nothing preventing you from not using it all the time except for you.  This is not a "broken" power problem, it is a you problem.  You are not required to take any incarnate power just as you are not required to take any other power you do not want to use.  Again, people who dislike Judgement are victims of their own making.  Use the tools freely and readily available to you to find like minded players, form your groups and run all the content you like without slotting a single Incarnate ability.  Zero development time required and you can all enjoy the game the way you like while everyone who wants to keep incarnates can.  This is win win for everyone involved. 

Kind of presumptuous to assume we already aren't.

 

I know that I often turn xp off at certain times to slow the leveling experience because I simply don't team in the 40s unless I'd rather just do whatever because it's just more of a slog to pre-qualify every teammember joining or introduce drama when people don't adhere to some restriction.  Leveling up is the content and I'll slow myself before level 10 so I can get all the DFB temp powers, slow at level 18 on a Stalker until I earn enough rewards to slot my chance for BU rech proc, slow at level 28 so I earn the rewards for the pet auras I want on my MM build, slow at lvl 33 so I can change alignments to villain so that I'm doing the patron arcs by lvl 35 and all the SF/TFs in between.

 

That all being said, I don't really consider it a win win.  I'm accepting a loss so I don't have to deal with crap.  If this were an actual win win scenario, maybe if people weren't so laser focused on the "end product" and played overall more casually instead of pushing the meta, then there'd be less focus on what is messed up about the balance.  People would have their overpowered perma-everything characters solo'ing itrials and what not and I can enjoy teaming on normal story arcs without bloody drama brought about by people trying to one-up someone else or using a tactic they don't like.

[Obus Form]

36 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Kind of presumptuous to assume we already aren't.

 

I know that I often turn xp off at certain times to slow the leveling experience because I simply don't team in the 40s unless I'd rather just do whatever because it's just more of a slog to pre-qualify every teammember joining or introduce drama when people don't adhere to some restriction.  Leveling up is the content and I'll slow myself before level 10 so I can get all the DFB temp powers, slow at level 18 on a Stalker until I earn enough rewards to slot my chance for BU rech proc, slow at level 28 so I earn the rewards for the pet auras I want on my MM build, slow at lvl 33 so I can change alignments to villain so that I'm doing the patron arcs by lvl 35 and all the SF/TFs in between.

 

That all being said, I don't really consider it a win win.  I'm accepting a loss so I don't have to deal with crap.  If this were an actual win win scenario, maybe if people weren't so laser focused on the "end product" and played overall more casually instead of pushing the meta, then there'd be less focus on what is messed up about the balance.  People would have their overpowered perma-everything characters solo'ing itrials and what not and I can enjoy teaming on normal story arcs without bloody drama brought about by people trying to one-up someone else or using a tactic they don't like.

Every game, subject, etc in this world has an optimized meta.  Expecting casual play from a group of 8 without explicitly stating so will not be possible 

[golstat2003]

42 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Kind of presumptuous to assume we already aren't.

 

I know that I often turn xp off at certain times to slow the leveling experience because I simply don't team in the 40s unless I'd rather just do whatever because it's just more of a slog to pre-qualify every teammember joining or introduce drama when people don't adhere to some restriction.  Leveling up is the content and I'll slow myself before level 10 so I can get all the DFB temp powers, slow at level 18 on a Stalker until I earn enough rewards to slot my chance for BU rech proc, slow at level 28 so I earn the rewards for the pet auras I want on my MM build, slow at lvl 33 so I can change alignments to villain so that I'm doing the patron arcs by lvl 35 and all the SF/TFs in between.

 

That all being said, I don't really consider it a win win.  I'm accepting a loss so I don't have to deal with crap.  If this were an actual win win scenario, maybe if people weren't so laser focused on the "end product" and played overall more casually instead of pushing the meta, then there'd be less focus on what is messed up about the balance.  People would have their overpowered perma-everything characters solo'ing itrials and what not and I can enjoy teaming on normal story arcs without bloody drama brought about by people trying to one-up someone else or using a tactic they don't like.

The issue is that many of us are vets who've done the story arcs to death on live. So the fun is trying out new sets and pushing them as far as they can go. If we had a steady flow of content throughout various levels people would probably be more inclined to stop and smell the roses. Unfortunately, that wasn't even the case when we had a full dev team. I don't think it will be the case here.

 

Also the fun of playing a living comic book is the power fantasy. The incarnate system fuels that and makes it possible for folks to do stuff that they can't normally do on the regular set up of the ATs. (Though arguably IOs do that more since they are slot-table for significant value in the 30s and up).

 

I think many folks who like the old traditional playstyle of COH might have to realize that most folks many not be looking for that any longer. And that more folks are who are more into the more slower style of the old days, may have to make some effort to form those types of teams.

 

I'm for more options for that. Like being able to set a team to only take folks with no incarnates (or even no IOs), or setting a cap on how many AOEs, etc etc. More options, not less.

 

EDIT: To be clear this isn't a D&D module where you as team leader is also the Dungeon master setting the limits. You don't know what builds folks will have before they join the team or even if they are full incarnated or just have alpha, or just have IOs. The only way is to tell people ahead of time. Many folks advertise in LFG that they only want this or that on the team or "2 spots left, could use some debuffers". That's fine. (I just like rolling with whatever within reason, but then I know that team is not for me and move on).

Edited April 23, 2020 by golstat2003

[Naraka]

17 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

Every game, subject, etc in this world has an optimized meta.  Expecting casual play from a group of 8 without explicitly stating so will not be possible 

I don't expect anything.  I literally just explained how I accept a loss so not win win.

 

 

 

[Obus Form]

39 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I don't expect anything.  I literally just explained how I accept a loss so not win win.

 

 

 

JUDGEMENT POWERS GALORE!!!!

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

The issue is that many of us are vets who've done the story arcs to death on live. So the fun is trying out new sets and pushing them as far as they can go. If we had a steady flow of content throughout various levels people would probably be more inclined to stop and smell the roses. Unfortunately, that wasn't even the case when we had a full dev team. I don't think it will be the case here.

I'm wary to reply to this post primarily because I know it's an unpopular opinion...

 

...but when I read that, all I hear are excuses to mutilate the game, justify bypassing features/content and introducing power creep.  "Oh, it's not our fault that we played the story arcs to death so just make it so we just powerlevel through and fill out incarnates and farm up a heap of purples with reckless abandon that compounds problem after problem."  "Since we don't get steady content flow, you owe us insanely fast progression, min/max builds and patching all old powersets to fit our meta".  No restraint.  No perspective.  No consideration.

 

Like I said before, if the game was overall dialed back to make the incarnate system more of a means of shoring up builds, there probably wouldn't be as big an issue with incarnates.  Or if the rest of the game wasn't being irrevocably pulled into the event horizon that is the meta-game builds, perhaps dealing with people pushing their builds to the limit wouldn't feel like pandering.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

The issue is that many of us are vets who've done the story arcs to death on live. So the fun is trying out new sets and pushing them as far as they can go. If we had a steady flow of content throughout various levels people would probably be more inclined to stop and smell the roses. Unfortunately, that wasn't even the case when we had a full dev team. I don't think it will be the case here.

This will vary by player.  I played for ... a long time... in Live. I still enjoy story arcs, and often solo not because I hate other people but because I want time to read clues and contact text and NPC dialogue, and that is NOT happening on a team. Other times I will team and I just tell myself, "okay, I'll do that arc again later via Ouro solo" while the team cruises on at top speed.

 

That said, I do think I'm in a distinct minority here.

 

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Also the fun of playing a living comic book is the power fantasy.

 

Largely agreed. It's also exploring your characters journey / story, but, no small part of that is the power they gain over time.  But some of us do want there to be a journey, not just a destination.

 

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

I think many folks who like the old traditional playstyle of COH might have to realize that most folks many not be looking for that any longer. And that more folks are who are more into the more slower style of the old days, may have to make some effort to form those types of teams.

Absolutely agreed, without reservation.  I don't get to force my quirks on other people's fun.  If I want people to hold back and not use everything tool in their toolkit, that's on me to find such like-minded people and organize it.  Or to just play "lone wolf" style heroes who solo.  

 

I would like a "Set Bonuses are Disabled" checkbox when creating a TF or Flashback.

I would like a "Incarnate Powers are Disabled" checkbox when creating a TF or Flashback.

 

But I recognize that doesn't require development action. It would be conveinent, so I didn't have to setup multiple builds or unslot and later reslot the Incarnate powers. But I *can* work around that without the devs lifting a finger, so I would not expect them to look at this while they have a Gigantic laundry list of other things that are of interest to many more players. 

 

[golstat2003]

18 hours ago, Naraka said:

I'm wary to reply to this post primarily because I know it's an unpopular opinion...

 

...but when I read that, all I hear are excuses to mutilate the game, justify bypassing features/content and introducing power creep.  "Oh, it's not our fault that we played the story arcs to death so just make it so we just powerlevel through and fill out incarnates and farm up a heap of purples with reckless abandon that compounds problem after problem."  "Since we don't get steady content flow, you owe us insanely fast progression, min/max builds and patching all old powersets to fit our meta".  No restraint.  No perspective.  No consideration.

 

Like I said before, if the game was overall dialed back to make the incarnate system more of a means of shoring up builds, there probably wouldn't be as big an issue with incarnates.  Or if the rest of the game wasn't being irrevocably pulled into the event horizon that is the meta-game builds, perhaps dealing with people pushing their builds to the limit wouldn't feel like pandering.

Except we're not asking them to change the game for us. We're working with what's there, which includes IOs and Incarnate powers, and being able to level up fast and try new "power fantasies". That's the difference between the two sides.

 

If they never introduced another story arc I'd be fine. There are plenty of builds for me level up, IO up, and incarnate up that I would playing this for another 3 years even without any new story based content. Which is why I'm fine with IOs and Incarnates as is. I'm not asking for them to make progression faster or make even more incarnate powers. if they do nice. But there is enough non-storyline content to keep me busy.

 

For ME and many others, the game is creating alts and seeing how far I can push them and rolling over mobs in full teams in random door missions, not playing ancient story lines that I already read 50 times before on live.

 

YMMV

Edited April 24, 2020 by golstat2003

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

That all being said, I don't really consider it a win win.  I'm accepting a loss so I don't have to deal with crap. 

Yeah that's entirely your choice man.  You're making that decision and you need to live with the consequences of it.   Find other people who play like you do and go have fun together. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ZacKing