Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[Replacement]

13 hours ago, MTeague said:

I sympathize with the original poster in that, I hate the 45-50 run when everyone else is judgmenting and using lore pets and if you're still levelling up, you are of ZERO use to the team, you are being CARRIED, plain and simple. Now, I've never seen a team that minded that. No one ever said "hey lowbie, pick up the pace" to a lvl 47 character of mine.  People are not being jerks.

 

But because of this, I simply no longer join teams that are doing 46+ content until I am 50 and incarnated up. Because it drives me crazy to know I'm being completely carried whether or not anyone is saying anything. It's a personality thing probably. But it's there in me and not going away. 

I'll still join 1-45 teams.  I'll still get exp, and then I can level up to 50 in a manner where I feel like I'm making some contribution. 

 

But I think that's really got to be the solution here. Not to take powers away from other people but just to use some judgement in which teams you join and which teams you pass on.

You aren't alone in this mindset.  This is why I think balance is important in co-op: I don't install games to watch others do all the work.  I want to be an equal part of this team.

 

Judgement cooldowns should just be longer.  Like 5-10 minutes.  Don't need the "too much work to program" charging system.

 

I want to remind other posters here that the OP never said "remove Judgement nukes."  Saying stuff like taking them away is the definition of a knee-jerk response.  @MsSmart I don't think 99% of Incarnate-level toons "worked hard for it."

 

47 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

IME people like the OP here are really QQing over nothing, because odds are they will be dead weight for most teams with competent builds and players behind those builds. Because lets face it, what the OP is really saying is he feels useless as a moderate DPS build, that offers no utility or support to the team, so they are pissy about feeling useless because they build to be a one trick pony, and then found out their pony wasnt the Black Stallion.

God damn this pisses me off.  Stop projecting worst-case personality traits on others. 

This is a game that encourages us to explore concepts above min/maxing.  Your very assumption that people expected to be the "black stallion" as opposed to just feeling like they should be allowed to contribute is an insult to this entire playerbase.

 

Good day, sir!

[Itikar]

And after judgement nukes then we nerf blaster nukes, right?

 

I personally find that for the fun of myself or others nukes, judgement or something else, are better if restrained by myself or my team members. That solution, if nukes bother you that much, requires no implementation, no restriction and no modification of gameplay mechanics that other people already enjoy.

 

As an addition to that, nobody forces you to play level 50 and incarnate content, there are plenty of lower level story arcs, task forces and content to be played. I think a better "solution" to the issue would be to allow people to exemplar down without necessarily joining a task force or entering an Ouroboros flashback. So one can exemplar down to 44 and you get rid of all incarnate stuff.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Itikar

[Super Homer]

5 minutes ago, Itikar said:

I personally find that for the fun of myself or others nukes, judgement or something else, are better if restrained by myself or my team members. That solution, if nukes bother you that much, requires no implementation, no restriction and no modification of gameplay mechanics that other people already enjoy.

Game is too easy? Fix: go afk and play something else while people do the boring stuff!! Or paly one handed, or use your toes! Make your own challenge out of the fact that these things are terribly balanced!!!

 

5 minutes ago, Itikar said:

As an addition to that, nobody forces you to play level 50 and incarnate content

 

ALL level 50 is, for all purposes, incarnate content, because people can bring that stuff to any mission even if its not a "incarnate content."

 

Devs: honestly, just increase enemy HP, at least make level 50 content at +1 or higher actually hard to play through! Its absurd that if I want a real challenge in this game the answer is to start a new character and play from level 1, and abandon it at level 45.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Super Homer

[Apparition]

I guess the next thing would be to remove attuned IOs as they make the game too easy when malefactoring down? 

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, summers said:

I very much miss the days where T9s weren't crashless and Judgements weren't around. Debuffs mattered. Control mattered. Powers other than nukes, mattered. The incredible recharge rates now allow for a great deal of nukes to go off at every spawn (I'm aware Judgements aren't affected, but T9s and similar are!), and I find that to be unsatisfying. As food for thought, using Judgements alone, a team of 8 can use one Judgement every 11.25 seconds in rotation.

 

But, I don't think I can say to just take them away. They're in whether I like it or not.

 

EDIT: Since we're in a suggestion forum, I'll throw in my own, off the cuff ideas:

Judgements: Increase recharge (5+ minutes) so that a team of 8 isn't hitting every spawn with them.

T9s: Increase recharge and/or make them unaffected by recharge (or global recharge). Return a 'cost' to them - a crash, a HP loss, something that causes a player to balance the decision to use it rather than just a free mob wipe. The better designed nukes IMO are the mini-ones, such as Hail of Bullets, Full Auto, etc.

Perhaps enemies could gain temporary resistances to subsequent nukes after being hit by a single one? I imagine that a single 'nuker' alone isn't too much of a problem - there'll likely be a good amount of enemies still standing. Not sure what work would be involved doing that sort of thing though.

[oedipus_tex]

If City of Heroes were still a single instance game where there is one canonical rule set I'd probably lean against restricting incarnate powers. However, we're in a situation where there are multiple servers and if I want a different flavor of the game I can move to a different server or start my own. 

 

It seems to me that the Homecoming team is more interested in addressing legacy issues than some of the other servers. So I wouldn't totally count out some kind of change to how these powers fit into the game.

 

Keep in mind by the time crashless Blast set nukes came around the game was free to play and the assumption was most teams did not consist of 8 incarnates. Incarnates were behind the paywall.

 

 

My personal feelings are probably different from the playerbase at large. For me, though, f I logged in tomorrow and Judgment and Lore pets were gone it would probably improve my feelings about the game. I'm not emotionally attached to either power. In fact I resent them, because they feel like temporary powers, I rarely put much thought into which one to pick, and they are more powerful than the powerset and archetype choices I labored over. 

 

I also wouldn't complain if Judgement and Lore only competed with each other and you had to pick between a Judgment blast or Lore pet but couldn't slot both at one time. 

 

Destiny is a bit trickier because it patches holes in some characters and players have built their whole characters around it. But, if they eliminated the top effect and just kept the lingering effect (+5 Defense from Barrier for example) I'd be fine with it. FWIW that's how far I feel Destiny missed the mark. +5 Defense for 2 min would have been very powerful, we didn't need the huge defense and resistance buff at the start of the power.

 

The Alpha slot I think is fine.

 

Interface is also fine.

 

Hybrid is problematic because of the one that does double damage. That one really should be a flat damage proc. Doubling damage is rarely a good idea. At most, this power should provide a low chance to crit (5% or so).  

 

 

 

A fix I personally, but maybe not the whole playerbase, would support is making all the incarnate powers slottable into "universal slots" instead of 1 per incarnate power type.  Maybe you get 1 slot at the start of the incarnate tree and the 2nd one unlocks at Hybrid.  You'd have to pick 2 incarnate powers slotted at a time, but not more than that. E.g. I could slot Alpha and Destiny, but then wouldn't get Lore, Judgement, Interface, and Hybrid. Interface is the weakest one so maybe that one is outside this rule. Maybe Alpha too.

Edited March 26, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[MTeague]

A Challenge setting when setting up a TF or Flashback, similar to how flashbacks can do time limits or "no travel powers" or "no inspirations", might be a nice way to get it in there.  You'd absolutely need to advertise the restriction up-front, becuase people unhappy with it would quit on the spot else.  But it would be an OPTIONAL restriction that would be locked in place for the TF once set.  No cheats, no "just this one spawn" or sidesteps.

[Obus Form]

Can we please blow this up into the Hot Topic of the day?

 

Someone, kindly add Ad Hominem attacks to their posts.

 

 

Thank you 

🍿🥩

[ZacKing]

Nope, no thank you.  Once again, the problem is not incarnates or people using the incarnate powers making the game too easy.  There is not enough content specifically made for pimped out incarnate teams.  Of course you're going to curbstomp TFs not meant for them.  More content made for incarnates is the answer, not nerfs.

[Blackfeather]

Another potential idea that's definitely in the Way Out There territory, if we're talking about 'restricting Judgement': what about changing the power into a fast recharging, single target attack? Or even a fast recharging, weaker AoE attack, leaning on the secondary effects that the different powers provide.

 

It'd have a high base accuracy, and would be generally more damaging than most single/AoE attacks are. That'd have the potential to fill out an attack chain for characters that don't really have that, or free up a power pick for those that do out of the box.

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Judgement powers were a bad idea.  So were most incarnates.

 

Incarnates should all have worked in ways akin to the alpha slot.  Increasing the power of your build, not giving you unbalancing powers.  

 

But oh well.  Too late now.   Ship has sailed on the water under the bridge we burned down when we got there. 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with incarnates being powerful.  The problem is there is little to no content specifically designed for incarnates.  To me, the answer is the game needs much, much more difficult content designed expressly for incarnate teams, not nerfing them into uselessness.

[Galaxy Brain]

The idea to restrict players to the choice of which (Destiny / Lore / Judgement) to take is an interesting one. Honestly that wouldn't be so bad as its more the snowball of *everyone* having all those options at once that trivializes a lot. For example, why take the Tank Hybrid option if you can cover your defenses with Destiny? That said, if you'd rather do for damage and get a Judgement Nuke then you may not want to go all damage and pick up more defensive or even support based Alpha/Interface/Hybrid slots. 

 

Blaster Nukes I feel are still balanced by being on Blasters. Only 1 AT can really do what they do with them, and as such it comes with the drawback of being on a squishy / etc. The incarnate powers are different as everyone on the team can have them + defenses + pets + etc.

 

This said, if the "Temp Power" incarnate options end up becoming locked from each other, they should probably have a bit of a boost in effect to make up for the shift. In what way? Not sure but I would not be in favor of such a harsh nerf to effectiveness even if it'd be good for the whole. 

 

 

Edit:

As for more incarnate content, I agree that is definitely needed! But, this still does not stop players from trivializing normal end game content which is a very awkward spot for many playing from lvl 45-50.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

If only that was true. It is said the power of an Incarnate can make a bad build functional, a poor build decent, an average build ok. But a good build is good no matter what you put on top of it.

Pretty much this. The things the OP is complaining about were already well on their way to being possible once the devs introduced purples and other IOs that can help you stack recharge. As someone else said a bunch of blasters with quick recharging nukes and capped defenses is pretty much the same damn thing.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

@MsSmart I don't think 99% of Incarnate-level toons "worked hard for it."

Yeah, nobody 'worked hard' to get judgement on HC.  The Incarnate system requires no unlocking.  Threads and Incarnate XP drop in regular content.  There are bucketfuls of threads and emp merits handed out during the first vet levels.  Characters don't work for the Incarnate system, it just happens to them.  In fact, the most challenging thing about the Incarnate system here is finding the damn scroll bar on the Incarnate crafting window.

 

Since HC has a reasonably large and fairly stable playerbase, perhaps it's time to return to the original system of Incarnate xp and salvage dropping only in Incarnate content.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Grouchybeast said:

Yeah, nobody 'worked hard' to get judgement on HC.  The Incarnate system requires no unlocking.  Threads and Incarnate XP drop in regular content.  There are bucketfuls of threads and emp merits handed out during the first vet levels.  Characters don't work for the Incarnate system, it just happens to them.  In fact, the most challenging thing about the Incarnate system here is finding the damn scroll bar on the Incarnate crafting window.

 

Since HC has a reasonably large and fairly stable playerbase, perhaps it's time to return to the original system of Incarnate xp and salvage dropping only in Incarnate content.

No thanks. The better option is to create more incarnate content. 

[Ruin Mage]

7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The better option is to create more incarnate content. 

Gotta hold yer horses on that one until we know what HC team is capable of.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

perhaps it's time to return to the original system of Incarnate xp and salvage dropping only in Incarnate content.

The ships has sailed on how accessible HC wants the game to be.

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, Itikar said:

And after judgement nukes then we nerf blaster nukes, right?

 

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

I guess the next thing would be to remove attuned IOs as they make the game too easy when malefactoring down? 

 

With it as easy as it is, we should just give everyone a Click power to instantly win a map and grant a level up.

 

Slippery slope arguments are fun!

Edited March 26, 2020 by Replacement
I just saw my phone changed "slope" to "slide." Which is funny.

[BZRKR]

No thank you to further restrictions.

 

If you feel like you are being "carried" by your team, and don't like that feeling, try going solo or a smaller team.

 

There are several difficulty adjustment tools in game, and adding a "No Incarnate Powers" to the Flashback/ TF menu certainly sounds like a good compromise. Just add badges for doing it :)

 

I thought that Dark Astoria and the Incarnate Trials were specifically Incarnate-level content. For those saying that there is none, do these things not count?

 

I would hope that as the HC team moves along the path they seem to be on, there might be new Incarnate content. I know I'd like to see another Incarnate level zone like Dark Astoria. Patience is key.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

 

 

With it as easy as it is, we should just give everyone a Click power to instantly win a map and grant a level up.

 

Slippery slide arguments are fun!

 

How is it a slippery slope?  Attuned IOs trivialize pre-level 45 content just as much as Incarnate powers trivialize level 45+ content.

[Obus Form]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

 

With it as easy as it is, we should just give everyone a Click power to instantly win a map and grant a level up.

 

Slippery slide arguments are fun!

The next thing would be to nerf COH Homecoming into Windows 94 Minesweeper because the game is generally, too much fun.

 

I need a sense of progression and fulfillment.   

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

First, ever on a team with a couple blasters with their nukes recharge at 30 seconds or so? Yeah next to that a team full of judgement isnt that impressive. Likewise lets see its only from 45-50 exemped incarnates get access to their powers. Most folks I know wont even try shadow shard TFs if at least a few full incarnates are not on the team to help speed it up. I cant even think of content that is drastically impacted by going incarnate, but I suspect that has to do with the way i build my toons.

 

IME people like the OP here are really QQing over nothing, because odds are they will be dead weight for most teams with competent builds and players behind those builds. Because lets face it, what the OP is really saying is he feels useless as a moderate DPS build, that offers no utility or support to the team, so they are pissy about feeling useless because they build to be a one trick pony, and then found out their pony wasnt the Black Stallion.

I think you've swung to the other extreme.

 

On one extreme, there's the QQing one-trick pony or limited concept build that is outplayed so wants to nerf everything and on the other is elitist power-gamers who boldly shove others' ineptitude in their faces.

 

The problem is, the game isn't hard to achieve anything in or to play so it's kind of like listening to a kid brag about how we aced a spelling bee, got straight A's in his 4th grade year and is the best basketball player on your kid's league team.  I'm happy you're proud of yourself and what you have accomplished in the game, but the goalposts have been artificially lowered and you're not competing for anything but participation trophies.  Calm down.

[ZacKing]

27 minutes ago, Apparition said:

How is it a slippery slope?  Attuned IOs trivialize pre-level 45 content just as much as Incarnate powers trivialize level 45+ content.

Yup.  and again, the problem is not with IOs or incarnates.  it's that there isn't enough content designed with them in mind.

[Replacement]

50 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

How is it a slippery slope?  Attuned IOs trivialize pre-level 45 content just as much as Incarnate powers trivialize level 45+ content.

Because it's still a "what-about?" argument that has nothing to do with what we're discussing.  If you're saying "today it's Judgement powers (NOT Incarnates as a whole, btw), tomorrow it's IOs" then... that's as slippery-slope as it gets.  

 

I still say Recharge nerf.  Everyone gets to keep their OP fun, they just get to have it less often.  Once you break the cycle of rotating which party member Judges which spawns, you start having to actually use your *build* for some of the fights in between.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Replacement
typo

[ZacKing]

14 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Because it's still a "what-about?" argument that has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

Crying whataboutism just means the argument has no merit and can't stand up to questioning. 

 

15 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I still say Recharge nerf.  Everyone gets to keep their OP fun, they just get to have it less often.  Once you break the cycle of rotating which party member Judges which spawns, you start having to actually use your *build* for some of the fights in between.

Yeah no, no nerfs required.  Just start making content that is made for incarnates.  It's not like people are speeding mob to mob firing off Judgement every 5 seconds. 

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Crying whataboutism just means the argument has no merit and can't stand up to questioning. 

Relying on whataboutism means you can't win your argument so you're changing the goalpost to distract the opposition

 

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah no, no nerfs required.  Just start making content that is made for incarnates.  It's not like people are speeding mob to mob firing off Judgement every 5 seconds. 

Nerfs are helpful for maintaining expected gameplay loops.  For example, getting to actually experience what else party members can do other than pressing their Judgement button.

 

THAT SAID, what you are proposing isn't mutually exclusive.  I would push for both.