Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, THEDarkTyger said:

That's your opinion. I think you'll find you're in the minority with that one...

I would be hesitant to assign majority and minority labels as it's obviously a controversial topic with nuanced arguments on both sides.

 

What I can certainly state, as @Haijinx said above, is the difficulty of the content and acquisition of the goals has had a toll on the game's balance in various ways.  I could list some of them but it's rather moot if the so called "majority" would rather tune it all out.

[Haijinx]

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I would be hesitant to assign majority and minority labels as it's obviously a controversial topic with nuanced arguments on both sides.

 

What I can certainly state, as @Haijinx said above, is the difficulty of the content and acquisition of the goals has had a toll on the game's balance in various ways.  I could list some of them but it's rather moot if the so called "majority" would rather tune it all out.

Its not just that.   There is essentially institutional inertia to the game.  We can't just re-balance the whole game 20 years after the alpha. 

 

From a "game design" standpoint that might be best.   But from a game standpoint it would be a bad idea. 

[skoryy]

What we really need is a Goldilocks forum where the 'The Game Is Too Easy', 'The Game Is Too Hard', and 'The Game Is Just Right' crowd can duke it out.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, skoryy said:

What we really need is a Goldilocks forum where the 'The Game Is Too Easy', 'The Game Is Too Hard', and 'The Game Is Just Right' crowd can duke it out.

give the "this game is too hard" folks a billion inf and they will change their tune prols

[Apparition]

35 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

give the "this game is too hard" folks a billion inf and they will change their tune prols

 

Or tell them to stop trying to solo on a Force Field Defender.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

13 hours ago, parabola said:

Going off on a tangent here but it's funny how subjective everything is. I see the game in many respects the other way around. At low levels I find the threats are more believable and there is more opportunity for heroism due to the lack of overwhelming personal power. Who is acting more heroically, the man off the street who confronts a mugger or superman who is impervious to injury doing the same?

 

I like it when the threats are more down to earth. Disrupting a gang's drug distribution network is just so much more real than closing down the multidimensional portals of cosmic travellers trying to lead the invasion from the planet zog. It's a problem that has infected the superhero movie genre, threats have become more and more overblown and removed from reality. I find myself caring less and less because none of it feels in any way real.

 

Superheroes are obviously fiction but they need the context of living in our world. The superman story would have been meaningless if it hadn't been set on earth and he hadn't been shown living amongst us. He wouldn't have been 'super man', he'd have been 'just another alien'. Too often the real world is just presented as a backdrop to be blown up with flashy special effects while a villain of arbitrary power is defeated by a hero to prove that his arbitrary power level has increased slightly since the last film.

 

Anyway, what were we talking about again?

You seem somewhat confused. Within the comic book hero genre are several distinct sub genre, you seem to be speaking specifically to the costumed vigilante genre as your preference. Characters such as batman and punisher who are but mortal human men using skills and a private arsenal to wage war in the streets. Superman is most assuredly the icon of the actual super hero genre. And I myself enjoy both genre equally along with the various other sub genre such as the anti hero genre.

 

However trying to infer men like batman and punisher are more heroic than say The Flash is absurd. Punisher and Batman are both examples of severely mentally ill men suffering from all sorts of disorders. Both could even be considered borderline authoritarian fascists as they are willing to use violence and intimidation to enforce their personal ideals upon others. Especially in the case of batman who has wealth enough to do plenty for the downtrodden and desperate and remove many of the social pressures that drive people to common street crimes like drug dealing, pimping and prostitution, and gang life in general which largely depends on children from poor homes largely neglected by family and society to fill their ranks.

 

The trait of Batman that has largely defined him as a hero is the version that is unwilling to take a life no matter what. A strict code of honor like that in the face of all the evil he sees is very much super heroic.

 

Superman is super heroic because he so easily could instead be a living god ruling over humanity as a tyrant till our sun fades from the sky. Its his tight grip on the morality instilled by his foster parents that makes him super heroic.

 

Random dude taking the law into his own hands and taking lives is what we call a murderer not a hero.

[Galaxy Brain]

59 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You seem somewhat confused. Within the comic book hero genre are several distinct sub genre, you seem to be speaking specifically to the costumed vigilante genre as your preference. Characters such as batman and punisher who are but mortal human men using skills and a private arsenal to wage war in the streets. Superman is most assuredly the icon of the actual super hero genre. And I myself enjoy both genre equally along with the various other sub genre such as the anti hero genre.

 

However trying to infer men like batman and punisher are more heroic than say The Flash is absurd. Punisher and Batman are both examples of severely mentally ill men suffering from all sorts of disorders. Both could even be considered borderline authoritarian fascists as they are willing to use violence and intimidation to enforce their personal ideals upon others. Especially in the case of batman who has wealth enough to do plenty for the downtrodden and desperate and remove many of the social pressures that drive people to common street crimes like drug dealing, pimping and prostitution, and gang life in general which largely depends on children from poor homes largely neglected by family and society to fill their ranks.

 

The trait of Batman that has largely defined him as a hero is the version that is unwilling to take a life no matter what. A strict code of honor like that in the face of all the evil he sees is very much super heroic.

 

Superman is super heroic because he so easily could instead be a living god ruling over humanity as a tyrant till our sun fades from the sky. Its his tight grip on the morality instilled by his foster parents that makes him super heroic.

 

Random dude taking the law into his own hands and taking lives is what we call a murderer not a hero.

You seem confused. Superman using his powers for good is indeed heroic, but is him stopping a mugging more heroic than if somebody without his gifts did? Probably not, as the normal guy had far more personal sacrifice on the line doing that.

 

But this is slightly off topic. What needs to be addressed is: are incarnates as they exist right at this moment problematic? (For ANY reason)

Edited March 29, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Haijinx]

There does seem to be a camp that thinks the game should be easy because Superheroes 

[Infinitum]

It makes me giggle when I fire mighty radial.

 

It's for theme and flare and sometimes that extra oomfh, if you rely on judgements your build is flawed in the first place.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What needs to be addressed is: are incarnates as they exist right at this moment problematic? (For ANY reason)

No, I don't think so because most builds if done correctly don't need Incarnates.

 

Incarnates do make a build better for stuff like the magisterium or any incarnate trial - that's the content they exist for anyway, mltf, lady gray - other end game stuff like that they just make the experience flow a little better.

 

If you are radio stomping council though yeah I'd imagine that would get boring.

 

But even on some of my teams decked out incarnate style stuff goes sideways - playing varied harder content opens that door though and that's fun to play through too.

[Parabola]

3 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You seem somewhat confused. Within the comic book hero genre are several distinct sub genre, you seem to be speaking specifically to the costumed vigilante genre as your preference. Characters such as batman and punisher who are but mortal human men using skills and a private arsenal to wage war in the streets. Superman is most assuredly the icon of the actual super hero genre. And I myself enjoy both genre equally along with the various other sub genre such as the anti hero genre.

 

However trying to infer men like batman and punisher are more heroic than say The Flash is absurd. Punisher and Batman are both examples of severely mentally ill men suffering from all sorts of disorders. Both could even be considered borderline authoritarian fascists as they are willing to use violence and intimidation to enforce their personal ideals upon others. Especially in the case of batman who has wealth enough to do plenty for the downtrodden and desperate and remove many of the social pressures that drive people to common street crimes like drug dealing, pimping and prostitution, and gang life in general which largely depends on children from poor homes largely neglected by family and society to fill their ranks.

 

The trait of Batman that has largely defined him as a hero is the version that is unwilling to take a life no matter what. A strict code of honor like that in the face of all the evil he sees is very much super heroic.

 

Superman is super heroic because he so easily could instead be a living god ruling over humanity as a tyrant till our sun fades from the sky. Its his tight grip on the morality instilled by his foster parents that makes him super heroic.

 

Random dude taking the law into his own hands and taking lives is what we call a murderer not a hero.

Hmm, confused and absurd? Thanks :). I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion I was talking about batman or vigilantism at all from my post though?

 

My points were simply that in my opinion:

 

A) Overwhelming power isn't inherently heroic. The person who is in more personal danger has a greater opportunity to demonstrate heroism in any given crisis.

 

B) I am simply not a fan of the kind of storytelling that is common in 'high level' superhero stories. The need to raise the threats to more and more overblown levels just removes all connection to the story for me.

 

Both of these points were my thoughts about the idea that the high level game felt more heroic than the low level game. I am offering a different opinion.

 

Getting back on topic this difference of opinion is indicative of what we are seeing here in a broader sense. I firmly believe that several parts of the incanate system are generally a detriment to the late game and if I had my way I would make sweeping changes to them. From comments others have made I don't think I am alone in this. However it is also clear that many others feel just as strongly that the incarnate system is fine or even perfect as it is. I doubt anything very much can be said by advocates of either point of view to change any minds, this being the internet after all ;).

 

Both of these positions are just opinions. Neither are inherently right or wrong. At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is how the devs see it. I'm sure they have seen these conversations about the incarnate system and late game difficulty in general and will have noted the points made by everyone. If they think there is anything worth addressing I am sure they will do their best to please everyone (and best of luck with that!).

[SaddestGhost]

On 3/27/2020 at 8:44 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

If we're cool with it, would we like to instead push Incarnates down even further so you start grabbing them when you get epic pools? 

 

We can exemp down with them anyways and this allows for more Incarnate content by proxy by letting you run 4/8 solo even earlier.

Honestly, I've always hoped for something similar, almost a parallel leveling branch, that would allow characters to develop in areas they weren't as strong in. Of course, (most of) the Incarnate powers we have now would remain in their place at end game, but earlier available ones could  help round out a character's weaknesses.  For instance, you could craft an AoE control or some armor for a Blaster, a strong melee attack for a controller, or an ally buff for a scrapper.  I imagine powers similar in effectiveness to some of the things we already get while leveling, but restricted by being unenhancable (or enhancable through a slot slot like Alpha) and having fixed recharge and duration.

 

[Burnt Toast]

7 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Or tell them to stop trying to solo on a Force Field Defender.

When people say the game is hard.... I usually look at their power choices and that is usually a good indicator that they have no idea how to build a decent character build. 

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What needs to be addressed is: are incarnates as they exist right at this moment problematic? (For ANY reason)

I would say, it exacerbates a problem that exists and persists in varying aspects of the game, team play and customization.  If we kept incarnates as we have them now but Thanos snapped all IOs, I think it wouldn't be all that bad.  If we took some steps to curb some things, having them made up through incarnate powers would at the very least prioritize build goals as one progresses upward.  But it gets to a point that some aspects of the game are wholly phased out (not by only incarnates, mind you...).  For example, Judgement nukes are only 1 aspect of the overbloat of AoEs which is contained within the core issue regarding encounter difficulty.  It marginalizes aspects of defensive support and crowd control and limits team roles.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, parabola said:

Hmm, confused and absurd? Thanks :). I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion I was talking about batman or vigilantism at all from my post though?

 

My points were simply that in my opinion:

 

A) Overwhelming power isn't inherently heroic. The person who is in more personal danger has a greater opportunity to demonstrate heroism in any given crisis.

 

B) I am simply not a fan of the kind of storytelling that is common in 'high level' superhero stories. The need to raise the threats to more and more overblown levels just removes all connection to the story for me.

 

Both of these points were my thoughts about the idea that the high level game felt more heroic than the low level game. I am offering a different opinion.

 

Getting back on topic this difference of opinion is indicative of what we are seeing here in a broader sense. I firmly believe that several parts of the incanate system are generally a detriment to the late game and if I had my way I would make sweeping changes to them. From comments others have made I don't think I am alone in this. However it is also clear that many others feel just as strongly that the incarnate system is fine or even perfect as it is. I doubt anything very much can be said by advocates of either point of view to change any minds, this being the internet after all ;).

 

Both of these positions are just opinions. Neither are inherently right or wrong. At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is how the devs see it. I'm sure they have seen these conversations about the incarnate system and late game difficulty in general and will have noted the points made by everyone. If they think there is anything worth addressing I am sure they will do their best to please everyone (and best of luck with that!).

Again abit off topic, but personally I do not rate a comic book character, or anyone in RL for that matter, as more heroic based on how much risk they personally take. In fact if risk taking is a prereq for being heroic, then one could argue that Lex Luthor who is but a mortal man challenging The Superman( along with the rest of his cosmic class peers like GL and WW) and in fact does so because he views such beings as inherently threatening to humanity is the greatest of heroes( fun fact that actually is a long standing popular pov from LL fans I gather).

 

Now do not get me wrong I love my mortal man charcters that are homages to the likes of batman. I do however intentionally gimp them abit by design to capture that feeling. IMO thats a good thing. That the level of personal power we want for our characters via concept is well within our control. Just as if those truly seeking challenge want, can make custom AE content that will target their characters weak points in various ways. The fact most AE content is farms or very story driven and little is made to actually stress test builds is exactly why some of us here say folks wanting mass game wide power balance toned down are in an extreme minority. Actions speak loudest to me. Until I see some kind of in game trend that suggests otherwise, my view would be that the OP and those here that want such things would be better off making a small private server to find the play experience they seek.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

When people say the game is hard.... I usually look at their power choices and that is usually a good indicator that they have no idea how to build a decent character build. 

I am amazed by the number of people that have all 4 leadership powers AND two travel powers. 

 

 

[skoryy]

5 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

When people say the game is hard.... I usually look at their power choices and that is usually a good indicator that they have no idea how to build a decent character build. 

I mean, not everyone wants to spend hours sorting out their build on Mids'.  I do, but I like problem solving exercises.  "This power looks cool" or "I want to do this" is also always a valid option.

[Troo]

5 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

When people say the game is hard.... I usually look at their power choices and that is usually a good indicator that they have no idea how to build a decent character build. 

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I am amazed by the number of people that have all 4 leadership powers AND two travel powers.

Why?

Are they doing it wrong?

 

The term 'decent' is subjective.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Troo

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I am amazed by the number of people that have all 4 leadership powers AND two travel powers. 

 

 

You mean 5 leadership powers dontcha? And SS+SJ is a classic combo for high speed global mobility. Not to mention any homage to Superman demands flight, super speed, and super jumping. Without any one of those its just not a true kryptonian homage.

 

Only pure meta gamers have issue with such paltry impacts on over all potential. If a build can sustain all the leadership toggles and the player teams most of the time, then its far from a bad build choice.

 

Plenty of primary/secondary sets have powers that are easy to skip over even from a meta perspective depending on play style. This is perhaps most true for offender builds that will not take any powers that effect allies only. This gives them plenty of free power choices to just make something fun and flavorful while still being a solo Monster Slayer.

[Galaxy Brain]

The only time a build is truly bad IMO is when a player for whatever reason goes out of their way to omit key powers. Like if a blaster took absolutely no AoEs or self buffs somehow.

[Chris24601]

11 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

You seem confused. Superman using his powers for good is indeed heroic, but is him stopping a mugging more heroic than if somebody without his gifts did? Probably not, as the normal guy had far more personal sacrifice on the line doing that.

A hero is someone who is admired for their abilities; one of which might be courage.

 

In the case of the mugger, I’d say that Superman and Batman are equally heroic in that they stopped an attack on an innocent person.

 

At best you could argue that Batman was more courageous in that he could actually be hurt in the attempt, but then again, we’ve seen various villains use common crimes and cries for help to draw Superman into a trap that might involve kryptonite or magic or similar things he’s vulnerable to and each call he answers could be one... yet he goes anyway.

[MunkiLord]

Just like KB, if someone doesn't like their teammates using Judgement, find another team or start your own and be a control freak. People that want to nerf others for their own fun should go away. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by MunkiLord
To be nicer

[johua]

Make your own team and specify no judgment powers.

Or solo.

Stop trying to make the game less fun because you don't like something people are having fun with.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You mean 5 leadership powers dontcha? And SS+SJ is a classic combo for high speed global mobility. Not to mention any homage to Superman demands flight, super speed, and super jumping. Without any one of those its just not a true kryptonian homage.

 

Only pure meta gamers have issue with such paltry impacts on over all potential. If a build can sustain all the leadership toggles and the player teams most of the time, then its far from a bad build choice.

 

Plenty of primary/secondary sets have powers that are easy to skip over even from a meta perspective depending on play style. This is perhaps most true for offender builds that will not take any powers that effect allies only. This gives them plenty of free power choices to just make something fun and flavorful while still being a solo Monster Slayer.

I meant all at the same time.   

 

I do not think the point was people having an Issue with the "paltry impacts", instead more a running commentary on those who think the game is hard.  

 

It stands to reason that if you put a ton of your power picks into things that Hog tons of END and things that are mainly useful for traveling between missions, then the game could seem harder. 

 

I do not personally care what people pick powers wise other than for curiosities sake.  At the endgame where this incarnate stuff matters most built up characters do not need any help killing a group of baddies.  Mainly teammates make it faster/safer/more fun, but really you can solo anything at 54x8.  

   

 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The only time a build is truly bad IMO is when a player for whatever reason goes out of their way to omit key powers. Like if a blaster took absolutely no AoEs or self buffs somehow.

petless mastermind.

 

All human peacebringer