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merrypessimist

Would Dual Pistols benefit from a "Sniper Shot" attack?

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I was thinking about this earlier while playing a DP blaster.  Would the set benefit significantly enough from changing one of the single target attacks (executioner's shot, perhaps) to behave as a sniper attack be worth the development/coding time necessary to do so?  These days with the sniper dual roles (slow/nasty and fast/less nasty) many blast sets have benefited from an extra decently strong attack for their chains.  

 

That being said, I haven't run the math on this (as I said, was just thinking about it) but it might help bring up DP's slightly lower damage numbers when it comes to single hard targets.  It also gives a "surprise, high caliber greetings!" option for stealthier blasters that might be synergistic with some of the various blaster secondaries.

 

Anyway, that's how my thinking went, and I'm offering it up to discussion.

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I dont think the set needs a snipe. You get 2 good, high damage attacks, which are admittedly, slow animation. I'd prefer teh set to ditch Swap Ammo as a power pick, making that automatically come up on picking the set, and give it an AIm type power. The fact you can aim with a fireball but NOT a pistol (or gun) is just stupid.

ALso, making Swap AMmo inherent would make sense. Look at all the melee gimmick sets, which just 'get' combo abilities inherently. ALso water blast!

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Dual Pistols isn't a sniper's set.  It's very flashy and showy, even Executioner's Shot has its flourishes in there.

 

Mechanical-wise, I don't think every set should abide by the same formula.  I think it's cool that Dual Pistols doesn't have a snipe and not having an aim means it likely has some other aspects that make the set unique (such as being able to turn KB on and off when I feel like it).  I think it'd be pretty dope if there was a new blast set that had more than one snipe-like attack or a set that had only a few blasts but various clicks and toggles to modify those blasts.

 

The only real reason to stick to a particular formula is merely familiarity.  A set can have differing mechanics and advantages/disadvantages and still be balanced to perform nearly the same as other sets.

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Piercing Rounds is a 4º Cone attack that can be enhanced into being Sniper-esque like so ...

 

spacer.png

 

Level 35:    Piercing Rounds    

 (A) HamiO: Centriole Exposure (+2 Dam/Range)
 (36) HamiO: Centriole Exposure (+2 Dam/Range)
 (36) Detonation - Damage/Endurance/Range: Level 50
 (36) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 27
 (37) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 20
 (37) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy): Level 20


Set Bonuses:
Annihilation
(Piercing Rounds)
  1.35% Max End

spacer.png  spacer.png

 

Note that at 124.8 * sin(4) = 8.7 ft wide cone at maximum range

Also, a 3.5 PPM proc like Positron's Blast for 71.75 Energy damage would have a 90% chance to proc in this configuration, meaning that damage production (before including -Resistance debuffing) would average out to 189.1 Lethal + 64.575 Energy = 253.675 damage in a build with NO OTHER POWERS (or enhancements) in it yet.

 

Obviously, filling out an entire build with Leadership toggles (Assault and Tactics particularly) along with 3-slotting Defender's Bastion TWICE! (to add another +15% to +20% global range enhancement!) would add another +12ft to +16ft of Range onto the 124.8ft Cone ... yielding an ultimate Range (before Incarnates!) of 136.8ft or 140.8ft depending on whether you've got Superior Defender's Bastion slotted or not, and you're well into "sniper" range territory for a power that can hit multiple $Targets (max 3) and inflict up to -40% Resistance debuffing (Standard Ammo mode) without needing to deal with an Interrupt.

 

From where I'm shooting, that's plenty sniper-esque for me and it can be used to hit 1-3 $Targets SIMULTANEOUSLY(!) ... unlike an "actual sniper" attack power.

 

 

 

Your turn.

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10 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

I dont think the set needs a snipe. You get 2 good, high damage attacks, which are admittedly, slow animation. I'd prefer teh set to ditch Swap Ammo as a power pick, making that automatically come up on picking the set, and give it an AIm type power. The fact you can aim with a fireball but NOT a pistol (or gun) is just stupid.

ALso, making Swap AMmo inherent would make sense. Look at all the melee gimmick sets, which just 'get' combo abilities inherently. ALso water blast!

The other way to go with swap ammo would be to juice up what it does a little. The idea of being able to tailor your damage type and secondary effects depending on the enemy is thematic and awesome but the reality is a bit underwhelming. If a greater percentage of the damage was moved from lethal to be fire/cold/toxic it would feel a fairer exchange for aim. The raw damage values could perhaps use a little love too...

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Posted (edited)

I would like to see Piercing Rounds get the Sniper treatment, however Beam Rifle has the equivalent with Piercing Beam and its set already has a Snipe in Penetrating Ray. So I dont see how you can change Piercing Rounds without changing Piercing Beam to be the same, and I dont see Beam Rifle getting 2 snipes.

 

Ultimately, I just want the cast time lowered. 2.5s is an eternity, especially when you see all the snipe sets get their once skippable power turned into T3 damage with T1 cast time while retaining the option for long snipe. 

 

I'd also like to see Piercing Rounds not lose its -resistance debuff while in a different Ammo. I'm tempted to just remove the power from my build altogether since I usually use Incendiary Ammo, and the long cast for a narrow cone just depletes my dps.

Edited by Bopper
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11 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

I dont think the set needs a snipe. You get 2 good, high damage attacks, which are admittedly, slow animation. I'd prefer teh set to ditch Swap Ammo as a power pick, making that automatically come up on picking the set, and give it an AIm type power. The fact you can aim with a fireball but NOT a pistol (or gun) is just stupid.

ALso, making Swap AMmo inherent would make sense. Look at all the melee gimmick sets, which just 'get' combo abilities inherently. ALso water blast!

I don't think it needs to be inherent, but I think the power pick could unlock a passive bonus to DMG / ToHit once you get it regardless of what ammo you use (Elemental or Normal) to make up for the loss of aim.

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Sets without Snipes really got sort of left behind when quick snipes were added.  

 

They should get some sort of balancer to this.  

 

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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Sets without Snipes really got sort of left behind when quick snipes were added.  

 

They should get some sort of balancer to this. 

Agreed.


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26 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Sets without Snipes really got sort of left behind when quick snipes were added.  

 

They should get some sort of balancer to this.  

 

Or just dial back the quick-snipe a bit so it's not such a huge gap (if there is, indeed, a gap that leaves other sets behind).

 

Since the new quick-snipe wasn't a project of the live devs but rather the HC team, it shouldn't be a problem to dial it back some.

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57 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Or just dial back the quick-snipe a bit so it's not such a huge gap (if there is, indeed, a gap that leaves other sets behind).

 

Since the new quick-snipe wasn't a project of the live devs but rather the HC team, it shouldn't be a problem to dial it back some.

I think quick snipes are in a great spot honestly. Ironically, it was the sets with snipes that were far behind (except Fire) before the change. 

 

There are only a handful of sets without snipes at the moment (just Sonic, DP, and Water iirc?) and they all have differing issues that could be addressed. 

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34 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think quick snipes are in a great spot honestly. Ironically, it was the sets with snipes that were far behind (except Fire) before the change. 

 

There are only a handful of sets without snipes at the moment (just Sonic, DP, and Water iirc?) and they all have differing issues that could be addressed. 

Ice has no snipe 

 

Also don't forget the quick snipes are fun. 

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Posted (edited)

IMO, Dual Pistols is just fine the way it is.  It's my favorite ranged attack set.  It doesn't need Aim because you get extra damage by loading Incendiary rounds and you get inherent extra accuracy.  It doesn't need a snipe because of Piercing Rounds, which can... well... pierce through one or two baddies.

Edited by Apparition
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think quick snipes are in a great spot honestly. Ironically, it was the sets with snipes that were far behind (except Fire) before the change. 

 

There are only a handful of sets without snipes at the moment (just Sonic, DP, and Water iirc?) and they all have differing issues that could be addressed. 

That's evidence that the quick snipes should be adjusted down (wouldn't be hard to just tie more damage into +ToHit).  You can't just keep upwardly adjusting things.

 

Have the sets you're describing as needing adjustment (exception with Assault Rifle but it also has a snipe) and fall below the snipe sets been shown to perform below standard?  If so, what is the standard and why are those sets below it?  Or why is no one asking these questions and just assuming everything needs more upward adjustments without some sort of reference point?

 

I personally think the old version of the quick snipe was fine.  It gave a defender/corruptor a means of advancing their personal damage with team assistance buffs and blasters, well they could lean on snipe but it required specific build considerations or just a team.  It wasn't particularly advantageous or cumbersome but since it's now just been adjusted away to be as convenient as possible, it seems to have shifted perceptions to usher in more convenience and functionality.  It really is a slippery slope that is willfully ignored and berated for illustrating.

Edited by Naraka
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I don't think we really know what the standard performance of any AT is really

 

We have a slight idea for scrappers damage wise, but thats about it. 

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28 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

We have a slight idea for scrappers damage wise, but thats about it. 

Scrappers don't measure damage ... only body counts ... and even then they rarely bother to remember to count how many ...

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1 minute ago, Naraka said:

That's evidence that the quick snipes should be adjusted down.  You can't just keep upwardly adjusting things.

 

Have the sets you're pointing to (exception with Assault Rifle) that fall below the snipe sets shown to perform below standard?  If so, what is the standard and why are those sets below it?  Or why is no one asking these questions and just assuming everything needs more upward adjustments without some sort of reference point?

Blast sets are next on my testing list since I've ran through all the melees 🙂 

 

While true you can't just keep upwardly adjusting, the snipe changes also have not all been equally powerful depending on the set. We need some numbers on them compared to the other blast sets, but the non snipers I think could be adjusted slightly without it being overwhelming (like 1 of their ST attacks gets a scootch better idk). DP lacks both Snipe and  Aim, so maybe having a slight buff when you unlock Swap Ammo is in order.

 

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

I personally think the old version of the quick snipe was fine.  It gave a defender/corruptor a means of advancing their personal damage with team assistance buffs and blasters, well they could lean on snipe but it required specific build considerations or just a team.  It wasn't particularly advantageous or cumbersome but since it's now just been adjusted away to be as convenient as possible, it seems to have shifted perceptions to usher in more convenience and functionality.  It really is a slippery slope that is willfully ignored and berated for illustrating.

I do like how you had to hit a certain goal to unlock quick snipe / it made Aim really good within blast sets (and devices). That said, I do really like the quick snipes now as a tier 3.5 blast

 

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I wouldn't mind seeing Executioner's Shot turned into a snipe.  I would also like to see Swap Ammo as an inherent and that power replaced with an Aim power.

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slightly off topic but I'd honestly settle for Bullet Rain to not have a stupid animation that rips off an even dumber movie.

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1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

I wouldn't mind seeing Executioner's Shot turned into a snipe.  I would also like to see Swap Ammo as an inherent and that power replaced with an Aim power.

 

Again, IMO, Dual Pistols doesn't need Aim.  DP has extra accuracy built-in compared to other ranged sets, and if you want extra damage switch to Incendiary rounds.

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21 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Again, IMO, Dual Pistols doesn't need Aim.  DP has extra accuracy built-in compared to other ranged sets, and if you want extra damage switch to Incendiary rounds.

But as was mentioned by @parabola, I think putting more of the attacks' damage into the different damage types would be a nice defined mechanic for this set.

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1 hour ago, Darkneblade said:

I just want to see electrical bullet and sonic bullet

Every 9mm is a sonic bullet ...


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If DP got a snipe it would be animated like holding both guns together horizontally and shooting them both at one target I think.

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46 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

If DP got a snipe it would be animated like holding both guns together horizontally and shooting them both at one target I think.

Pshaw.

If Dual Pistols got a snipe it would take the Concentrated Strike animation out of Kinetic Melee and put guns in each hand so as to ROFLcopter wind up before pointing them in the direction you eventually wind up shooting with both pistols.  The unnecessary whirly-gig movement before shooting would be the Interrupt time for the (slow) snipe.


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