SANCTUARY server (not Homecoming) Energy Blast ... no more Knockback...

[Herotu]

Energy blast:

All knockback has been converted to knockdown for both blasters and defenders.

NOT ON HOMECOMING* I don't hate it - knockback can be inconvenient- but I'm a bit disappointed that the solution wasn't to turn knockback into a damage bonus based on mag value.

 

What do you think of their solution to the slight inconvenience of energy knockback?

Edited April 4, 2020 by Herotu

[Apparition]

I think changing all PC knockback to knockdown is a great idea.

[warlyx]

its a good change , hoping homecoming change it too and let u use the enhancements to convert KD into KB 

[Herotu]

9 hours ago, warlyx said:

its a good change , hoping homecoming change it too and let u use the enhancements to convert KD into KB 

Why make that change? Nobody would buy it. Nobody buys it anyway - Surely Knockback needs to be improved or removed entirely?

[Redlynne]

Knockback is GREAT ... but only if you can control it so as to make it happen ON DEMAND.

Something as simple as an inherent universal toggle power would suffice.

Toggle on to clamp Knockback to no more than 0.75 mage, converting all Knockback into Knockdown.

Toggle off to inflict full Knockback.

Don't bother with an animation for the toggle and give it as short of a casting time as is feasible (I'm thinking like 0.1s, so nearly instant).

 

You now have the means at the disposal of the Players to manage the ... severity ... of Knockback under differing conditions and situations.

EVERYBODY WINS.

 

... well, except for the Haters of course ...

Edited April 5, 2020 by Redlynne

[Blastit]

I think it's a bad idea to change all KB into KD because knocking stuff around is a very superhero thing.

[Doomguide2005]

No, not a change I would support.

[Rathulfr]

Edited April 5, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Neogumbercules]

9 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Knockback is GREAT ... but only if you can control it so as to make it happen ON DEMAND.

Something as simple as an inherent universal toggle power would suffice.

Toggle on to clamp Knockback to no more than 0.75 mage, converting all Knockback into Knockdown.

Toggle off to inflict full Knockback.

Don't bother with an animation for the toggle and give it as short of a casting time as is feasible (I'm thinking like 0.1s, so nearly instant).

 

You now have the means at the disposal of the Players to manage the ... severity ... of Knockback under differing conditions and situations.

EVERYBODY WINS.

 

... well, except for the Haters of course ...

This is honestly the best solution and I'm pretty sure one of the other servers does exactly this. It serves everyone. No one could complain about this (convincingly). 

[Novacat]

A real *upgrade* for slot usage, would be UP. turn all those knockdowns into ups.

[RiotAce]

On 4/4/2020 at 6:50 PM, Herotu said:

Energy blast:

All knockback has been converted to knockdown for both blasters and defenders.

NOT ON HOMECOMING* I don't hate it - knockback can be inconvenient- but I'm a bit disappointed that the solution wasn't to turn knockback into a damage bonus based on mag value.

 

What do you think of their solution to the slight inconvenience of energy knockback?

the solution? learn to manage it. KB might be annoying for teams sometimes, but it is something i want/love for solo. 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 11:09 AM, Blastit said:

I think it's a bad idea to change all KB into KD because knocking stuff around is a very superhero thing.

also this, its very superhero.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

wait so u want KB converted to KD and then have players use the KB enhancements to actually get KB if they want KB? hmm, that sounds too reasonable and logical to ever happen.

[Herotu]

How about the game (I don;t know if client or server) calculates whether the enemy will die from the damage, then ONLY knock them back if they've got low enough health to be killed by the attack?

[Freaksh0w]

[EyeLuvBooks]

On 4/4/2020 at 7:26 PM, Apparition said:

I think changing all PC knockback to knockdown is a great idea.

As an alternative, I would like to see a T2 or T3 power for each set that retains KB and even has bonus KB.

 

Better yet, ALL KB is converted to KD and you can get an IO that switches it back. It's the same as we have now just in reverse. I don't see why KB should be the default.

 

[Rathulfr]

10 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I don't see why KB should be the default.

Because the game was designed with knockback as an integral component.  Lots of powers have it, across multiple sets and ATs.  City of Heroes wouldn't be the same game without it: it would be a fundamentally different game.  This not only breaks the cottage rule, it razes a substantial neighborhood to replace it with condos.

 

Yes, KB is a pain in the ass sometimes: it's supposed to be.  Deal with it, just like we deal with AoE immobilizes and mass confusion and dimension shift.  It's part of the game.  If you don't like it, play a different game, or slot KB-to-KD enhancements.  Those are optional, and don't force the players to change the default essence of the original game.

 

Should there be more options for converting KB to KD (or KU)?  Sure, why not?  But not at the expense of forcing every player into that mold or altering a fundamental component of the original game.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Rathulfr

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Because the game was designed with knockback as integral component.  Lots of powers have it, across multiple sets and ATs.  City of Heroes wouldn't be the same game without it: it would be a fundamentally different game.  This not only breaks the cottage rule, it razes a substantial neighborhood to replace it with condos.

 

Yes, KB is a pain in the ass sometimes: it's supposed to be.  Deal with it, just like we deal with AoE immobilizes and mass confusion and dimension shift.  It's part of the game.  If you don't like it, play a different game, or slot KB-to-KD enhancements.  Those are optional, and don't force the players to change the default essence of the original game.

 

Should there be more options for converting KB to KD (or KU)?  Sure, why not?  But not at the expense of forcing every player into that mold or altering a fundamental component of the original game.

 

I wasn't going to post here, because it's always the same discussion.  But this was a great summary of the Pro's/Con's and facts of life of KB

[Intrinsic]

I wouldn't want to see KB changed to KD on utility powers like Gale or Bonfire, where knockback is the whole point of the power.  But as secondary effects on damage powers?  Yes, those should all be knockdown by default. 

 

We could still allow KB enhancements in those powers to change their behavior, for those players who insist on being Captain Knockback.  But KB on damage powers should be opt-in, not opt-out.

[Rathulfr]

15 hours ago, Intrinsic said:

But KB on damage powers should be opt-in, not opt-out.

Wrong.  The game was designed with KB on damage powers, by default.  This is the way they were meant to be played from the very beginning, and for most of the game's active history.  It was only towards the end that they added in a single, unique, enhancement set (Overwhelming Force) that could alter that on one power per build.  That means they intended it to be opt-out for only one (1) power per build.

 

It wasn't until the non-unique proc in Sudden Acceleration was added that it became possible for players to opt-out of KB, and that only at the expense of a slot per power.  Players have to consider it a trade-off, sometimes even risking 6th slot set bonus effects.  The decision to convert KB to KD is meant to be a measured one, not something that was ever expected to be the "default".

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Redlynne]

20 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

This is the way they were meant to be played from the very beginning

Just because that's the way it WAS doesn't mean that's the way it always SHOULD HAVE BEEN ...

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Redlynne said:

Just because that's the way it WAS doesn't mean that's the way it always SHOULD HAVE BEEN ...

Yes, actually it does.  What is doesn't mean is that it's the way it always must be, going forward.  We can have a discussion about what it should be in the future.  But there's no arguing about what it was in the past. 

 

The devs designed it that way originally, they maintained it that way for most of the game's active history, so that it strongly implies that's the way it always should have been, up to the point where they decided to change it.  And when they did change it, they changed it in a way that reinforced the notion that KB "on" is the "default", and that turning it off was optional.

 

I'm all for debating about its future disposition.  But don't try to re-write history, because that won't fly, and doesn't support any arguments otherwise.

 

[eiynp]

this thread is talking about proposed changes which necessarily are 'the way things should be'; what the original dev team intended 1) isn't really relevant to the ongoing game and 2) was frequently pretty dumb. Any time you find yourself relying on the intent of Jack Emmert et al you are probably well served to re-examine your reasoning.

 

imo this is reflected in the fact that very few new KB powers were ever added after the launch sets; dev realized pretty early on that it was kind of a crummy mechanic and opted for knock up/down instead

 

at this point in the game's life we're all here to have a bit of fun and reminisce, so things that are pains in our collective ass should probably just be removed/fixed, especially if the fix is easy

[Rathulfr]

16 minutes ago, eiynp said:

this thread is talking about proposed changes which necessarily are 'the way things should be'; what the original dev team intended 1) isn't really relevant to the ongoing game and 2) was frequently pretty dumb. Any time you find yourself relying on the intent of Jack Emmert et al you are probably well served to re-examine your reasoning.

 

imo this is reflected in the fact that very few new KB powers were ever added after the launch sets; dev realized pretty early on that it was kind of a crummy mechanic and opted for knock up/down instead

 

at this point in the game's life we're all here to have a bit of fun and reminisce, so things that are pains in our collective ass should probably just be removed/fixed, especially if the fix is easy

I respectfully disagree.  What the original dev team intended and delivered is why I played this game in the first place, and why I came home to it when it was resurrected.  If CoH in 2020+ becomes significantly different from CoH in 2004-2012, then it loses its appeal to me, and I'd probably stop playing it.

 

Yes, the devs did reconsider KB as the game progressed, but they never retroactively changed their original design.  This means that the devs respected their original design decisions, and sought to preserve them, even while at the same time changing their trajectory.  In other words, they saw value in the original KB mechanics and sought to preserve them, even while they created new sets with KD/KU as an alternative.

 

One person's "pain in the ass" is another person's "pleasure in the face" (to flip the metaphor).  Please don't remove/fix that, no matter how "easy" it might seem.  The fact that we're having this debate (again!) shows how divisive this issue is, and that there is no collective consensus that it should be changed, universally, as done by Sanctuary.  We can discuss other options that HC might consider, but a universal switch from KB to KD across the board is a bad move.

 

Going back to the OP: this one change by Sanctuary means that I won't be playing there.  I do like to visit the other servers from time to time, and I've actually had fun on a few of them.  But ultimately, I still prefer HC over the others, because they seek to thread the needle of maintaining the original design of the game while adding innovative QoL improvements.  Changing KB to KD universally crosses a boundary line that violates the original design, upsetting the careful balance, IMO.

 

[eiynp]

Hey you called it a pain in the ass, not me

 

You’re assigning kind of a silly level of intent to dev decisions 15 years ago; the fact that (say) energy blast KB was never changed doesn’t mean anything other than that they never found it worthwhile to change. As someone who started playing in i2, a lot of their early decisions were atrocious. Some got addressed and some didn’t but there isn’t necessarily a method as to which.

 

And in any event who cares? 15 year old design isn’t necessarily any guide for the future.

[MunkiLord]

Any free toggle should only change all KB mag to zero and lock it there. Don't want to invest slots for KB to KD? Fine, then you can turn all KB and KD off. This would be a fair trade off in my opinion.