SANCTUARY server (not Homecoming) Energy Blast ... no more Knockback...

[Apparition]

4 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Wrong.  The game was designed with KB on damage powers, by default.  This is the way they were meant to be played from the very beginning, and for most of the game's active history. 

 

Task forces were originally meant to take *days* to play through.   For most of the game's active history, we had the original Positron Task Force, Synapse, Sister Psyche, the Shadow Shard TFs... 

 

They weren't a good idea then, they aren't a good idea now.  Just like knockback. 

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, eiynp said:

Hey you called it a pain in the ass, not me

 

You’re assigning kind of a silly level of intent to dev decisions 15 years ago; the fact that (say) energy blast KB was never changed doesn’t mean anything other than that they never found it worthwhile to change. As someone who started playing in i2, a lot of their early decisions were atrocious. Some got addressed and some didn’t but there isn’t necessarily a method as to which.

 

And in any event who cares? 15 year old design isn’t necessarily any guide for the future.

Normally, I would agree with you, except in this case.  Most people came "home" to the game they loved that was created 15 years ago.  I argue that they want the essence of that original game preserved, while building on that for an improved future.  Furthermore, they probably don't want that essence altered too much to become something that's significantly different than the original.

 

If HC significantly altered the game in fundamental ways, such as defaulting to KD instead of KB, then CoH would no longer be "CoH", as it's fondly remembered.  It would become "CoH 1.5" or "CoH 2.0", which is an entirely different proposition.

 

I'm not asking that we carve into stone the devs' original intent, and never move the game forward.  I'm just saying that we need to balance the past against the future, to preserve the original spirit of the game for those who come to play for nostalgia, in addition to adding new features that appeal to both old players and new ones.

 

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Apparition said:

 

Task forces were originally meant to take *days* to play through.   For most of the game's active history, we had the original Positron Task Force, Synapse, Sister Psyche, the Shadow Shard TFs... 

 

They weren't a good idea then, they aren't a good idea now.  Just like knockback. 

The change to TFs doesn't fundamentally player character concepts, which is at the core of why people play the game.  People don't come to CoH to play TFs: they come to create and play the super-hero alter egos in their imaginations.  Changing KB to KD arbitrarily could fundamentally alter some of these player character concepts, which would be construed as a serious violation of personal identity.  And in some cases, that would drive some players away.

 

Surely there's a way to change the game for the better that accommodates those players who want KB, as well as those who don't?  I simply disagree that changing it by default for legacy ATs/power sets to which it is integral -- as Sanctuary has done, as described by the OP -- is the right way to do it.  Let's come up with a different solution that works for everyone.

 

[eiynp]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Normally, I would agree with you, except in this case.  Most people came "home" to the game they loved that was created 15 years ago.  I argue that they want the essence of that original game preserved, while building on that for an improved future.  Furthermore, they probably don't want that essence altered too much to become something that's significantly different than the original.

 

If HC significantly altered the game in fundamental ways, such as defaulting to KD instead of KB, then CoH would no longer be "CoH", as it's fondly remembered.  It would become "CoH 1.5" or "CoH 2.0", which is an entirely different proposition.

 

I'm not asking that we carve into stone the devs' original intent, and never move the game forward.  I'm just saying that we need to balance the past against the future, to preserve the original spirit of the game for those who come to play for nostalgia, in addition to adding new features that appeal to both old players and new ones.

 

Oh come on now; we have powers and ATs that never existed on live, custom exp, AE farming as the dominant gameplay, and any number of other new mechanics, but the thing that’s gonna fundamentally change the nature of the game is... kB to kd?  Gimme a fucking break

 

you (and presumably others) like kb and that’s fine; that’s an argument for keeping it around however far it goes. This business about ‘preserving the game’ is some grade a bs though

[MunkiLord]

This argument is, and always has been, about control. Not just controlling one's own powers, but controlling other people and how they play. This is why this suggestion should never be seriously considered by anyone in a position of power.

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, eiynp said:

Oh come on now; we have powers and ATs that never existed on live, custom exp, AE farming as the dominant gameplay, and any number of other new mechanics, but the thing that’s gonna fundamentally change the nature of the game is... kB to kd?  Gimme a fucking break

 

you (and presumably others) like kb and that’s fine; that’s an argument for keeping it around however far it goes. This business about ‘preserving the game’ is some grade a bs though

Yes, new things have been added, but the old things have also been preserved.  As was stated earlier, the devs did start to correct their decisions about KB, using KD in new power sets.  But they were also careful not to go back disrupt established power sets (like Energy or Storm) because doing so would fundamentally alter a significant aspect of those sets.

 

I'm all for adding new options to address the problems with KB.  I'm against any options that would retcon established sets (like Energy and Storm and others).  Those legacy sets need to be preserved as part of the original game.  If those who play those sets want to take advantage of any new KB-to-KD/KU options, then great, more power to them.  But don't expect those who don't want to do so to accept it without the same option to decline.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Galaxy Brain]

14 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Wrong.  The game was designed with KB on damage powers, by default.  This is the way they were meant to be played from the very beginning, and for most of the game's active history. 

 

Thank god we still have 6 slotted damage as intended, and infinite herding as intended, and no customization of weapons or powers as intended, and only 5 AT's as intended.

 

The game changes, bringing up "its always been this way" is a weak argument when we are seeing patches that drastically alter the game still to this day.

 

 

As for the actual topic, Knockback in CoH does not feel super-heroic. Where can you do this?

 

 

That is not CoH knockback. KB in this game is slow and often does not provide significant benefit over other forms of mez, such as Knockdown or Knockup. There are no environmental benefits to flinging enemies either unless you want to gamble against a wall and hope they don't get stuck in geometry, thus actually making them untouchable by most powers.  Superhero knockback should be flinging people through walls, across rooms, smacking into other enemies and being awesome, not a nuisance. I've ranted on this before, but ever since the KD enhancements were added and show how strong KD is over knockback with how it relates to CoH general gameplay the sets with multiple KB powers have sort of gotten the shaft. 

 

 

Alternatively to just converting to KD, we should make KB better and actually "super".  Launch a guy? They take bonus smashing damage and are stunned, etc. Convert that to KD? You lose that bonus effect in exchange for better "control".

[justicebeliever]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

As for the actual topic, Knockback in CoH does not feel super-heroic. Where can you do this?

Super-heroic is in the eye of the beholder...Does KB feel super-heroic to me?  Yes, it sincerely does.

 

Could it be better?  Could it feel more so?  Of course it could.  So could many things in the game, given enough time, imagination, and developers.

 

Speaking of better...

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Launch a guy? They take bonus smashing damage and are stunned, etc. Convert that to KD? You lose that bonus effect in exchange for better "control".

This is a great suggestion.

[Galaxy Brain]

34 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Super-heroic is in the eye of the beholder...Does KB feel super-heroic to me?  Yes, it sincerely does.

Compared to what it *could* be, it really doesnt.

34 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

 

Could it be better?  Could it feel more so?  Of course it could.  So could many things in the game, given enough time, imagination, and developers.

 

Speaking of better...

This is a great suggestion.

 

 

 

[justicebeliever]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Compared to what it *could* be, it really doesnt.

I already agreed it could be better.  But I sincerely like KB as-is.  I think City of Heroes is great as-is.  But don't mistake that either for thinking it couldn't be better, in lot's of ways.  Please don't tell me I'm not allowed my opinion here.

 

BTW - I love most of the suggestions in the post you linked.  They would all make KB better in-game

[Rathulfr]

9 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thank god we still have 6 slotted damage as intended, and infinite herding as intended, and no customization of weapons or powers as intended, and only 5 AT's as intended.

 

The game changes, bringing up "its always been this way" is a weak argument when we are seeing patches that drastically alter the game still to this day.

My argument about original intent was not against changing/improving KB.  It was against the idea that KB should changed arbitrarily and universally as posted by the OP, or against the notion that it "should" be opt-in rather than opt out.

 

As I indicated in most of replies, I support discussion/debate about changing/improving KB, and your linked post from Feb. 1 is one of the better ones I've seen proposed*.  But that's markedly different than simply changing KB to KD across the board by default, as they've done at Sanctuary.

 

(edit) *: You'll notice my support was one of the first few replies in that thread.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

My argument about original intent was not against changing/improving KB.  It was against the idea that KB should changed arbitrarily and universally as posted by the OP, or against the notion that it "should" be opt-in rather than opt out.

I gotchu, it's just the angle you were using has shaky ground based on well... most of the examples listed against it where the fundamentals of the game have indeed changed.

 

I agree with you that it should not be altered in such a way that you now need to opt in to using it. It's just confusing to me that the option presented is always "get rid of it" and hardly ever "let's fix it".

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I agree with you that it should not be altered in such a way that you now need to opt in to using it. It's just confusing to me that the option presented is always "get rid of it" and hardly ever "let's fix it".

Amen to this.  There is a group of KB haters out there who only want it gone, there is a group of KB lovers out there who want it protected and these two are never are never going to see eye to eye.  Here's hoping someone can find a bridge between them, as this seems like the most divisive topic of the game.

[Troo]

Question: Is it wrong to promote other servers on this servers forum?

 

I kinda lean toward "ya, it should be discouraged" but not all the way "ban 'em, and delete their account".

 

what the hell?!! this is the blaster forum.. how'd I get here?

[nihilii]

Might as well have discussions about all servers here, as no other server can't be arsed to use proper forum software. 😛

Reddit and Discord are great in their own ways but not well-suited for long-form discussions and indexing information.

[Rathulfr]

30 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I gotchu, it's just the angle you were using has shaky ground based on well... most of the examples listed against it where the fundamentals of the game have indeed changed.

 

I agree with you that it should not be altered in such a way that you now need to opt in to using it. It's just confusing to me that the option presented is always "get rid of it" and hardly ever "let's fix it".

 

27 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Amen to this.  There is a group of KB haters out there who only want it gone, there is a group of KB lovers out there who want it protected and these two are never are never going to see eye to eye.  Here's hoping someone can find a bridge between them, as this seems like the most divisive topic of the game.

 

I disagree that the "fundamentals" of the game have changed in their essential nature.  To be sure, there have been significant changes to mechanics (aggro cap, ED, IOs, Incarnates, etc.), but the fundamental character of the game and the original power sets are still there.  Energy Blasters are still Energy Blasters, Storm Defenders are still Storm Defenders.  They may not be able 6-slot the same enhancements any more, but their essence is still there.

 

If KB were suddenly switched to KD automatically, would Energy Blasters and Storm Defenders still be the same, though?  Mechanically, yes: KD Blasters/Defenders would probably play just as well (or better, as asserted by @Galaxy Brain).  But I'm arguing that something of their non-mechanical essence -- their Platonic "Form" -- would be irrevocably diminished.

 

I fully support any solution that allows us to preserve the original essence while improving mechanics, as so many of the other changes from the original design have done (aggro cap, ED, IOs, Incarnates, etc.).

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Rathulfr

[plainguy]

KB is such a non issue I have zero clue why the OP would even bring this up. 

 

KB just really means nothing in this easy game. 

They should have made it where you could only put a LIMITED number of IO sets on a build. 

Because when everyone had standard IOs you NEED players to team with.. 

Today I am soloing AVs with a one pet mastermind.  lowest hitpoint pool. No bodyguard mode because its insta death for 1 Pet. 

 

Where is the OP defending his post ?

 

Finally this should be in suggestions not here

[Zeraphia]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:41 PM, MunkiLord said:

Any free toggle should only change all KB mag to zero and lock it there. Don't want to invest slots for KB to KD? Fine, then you can turn all KB and KD off. This would be a fair trade off in my opinion.

I personally want to say that I completely agree with this decision. I think that people should ABSOLUTELY be able to control whether or not they actually want their power and supposed "benefit" to trigger especially given how controversial knockback has become. However, I think if you specifically SLOTTED for KD in a power, you should still be able to use KD on that particular power... for instance, let's say I slotted KD into Explosive Blast, but I turned my KB-off toggle on, I think you should still have the knockdown you specifically slotted into the power for. But even if you couldn't have that, I'd whole-heatedly support a toggle that just shuts it all off point-blank.

 

Not everyone wants knockback, and knockback let's face it can be very annoying. I particularly feel inclined to constantly slot my powers with knock->knockdown... Further, that leads me into my next point of discussion:
 

I absolutely cannot play Energy Blast in its given state because of how bad the Knockback issue on this set has become. Now, I *want* to, but I'd feel as if I'd need to waste a 6th slot into so so so so many powers to finally get the effect to become reasonable that it just completely strays me away from the set entirely, which I think is a terrible thing. 

 

As a poster above me mentioned, there really isn't a lot of benefit toward knockback in a lot of cases in a lot of environments to something other than an energy Blaster who is completely ranged and would absolutely die without the power preventing an enemy from getting close to them or stopping the enemy from using their powers. 

[MunkiLord]

5 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I personally want to say that I completely agree with this decision. I think that people should ABSOLUTELY be able to control whether or not they actually want their power and supposed "benefit" to trigger especially given how controversial knockback has become. However, I think if you specifically SLOTTED for KD in a power, you should still be able to use KD on that particular power... for instance, let's say I slotted KD into Explosive Blast, but I turned my KB-off toggle on, I think you should still have the knockdown you specifically slotted into the power for. But even if you couldn't have that, I'd whole-heatedly support a toggle that just shuts it all off point-blank.

 

Not everyone wants knockback, and knockback let's face it can be very annoying. I particularly feel inclined to constantly slot my powers with knock->knockdown... Further, that leads me into my next point of discussion:
 

I absolutely cannot play Energy Blast in its given state because of how bad the Knockback issue on this set has become. Now, I *want* to, but I'd feel as if I'd need to waste a 6th slot into so so so so many powers to finally get the effect to become reasonable that it just completely strays me away from the set entirely, which I think is a terrible thing. 

 

As a poster above me mentioned, there really isn't a lot of benefit toward knockback in a lot of cases in a lot of environments to something other than an energy Blaster who is completely ranged and would absolutely die without the power preventing an enemy from getting close to them or stopping the enemy from using their powers. 

My motivation for my particular suggestion is it will be relatively easy for controlling teammates/leaders insist everyone uses a free KB to KD toggle. It will be a significantly bigger ask/demand to insist someone use a toggle that hard locks KB to mag 0 and completely eliminating a lot or all of another player's mitigation for several of their powers. It should be a significant burden on a leader if they want to insist other players use such a toggle. Plus in general something having some sort of cost is a good thing. 

 

But if someone slots a KD IO into a power, it would make sense if that would override the toggle. 

[Frostweaver]

I think Null the Gull should have an option "Turn all my character's knockback into knockdown"
Problem solved without wrecking the characters that WANT KB.
Just like he could have an option "Turn off my pet's bounding boxes'

so some sets,, like demons, would probably turn them off, while ninjas and thugs would probably keep them turned on.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Frostweaver]

Zeraphia-

There are several sets I just won't play because I don't like one aspect or another of them. This is not a reason to make system-wide changes to an important dynamic. Just don't play energy blast. Dark blast with bright special effects looks very energy-blasty without the KB

[Naraka]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:55 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

As for the actual topic, Knockback in CoH does not feel super-heroic. Where can you do this?

There goes that esoteric term "super heroic" again lol

 

Well, I'll just say what you define as "super heroic" also has to take into account the medium you're enjoying it in, which is an MMO.  Most MMOs either don't have KB or it's very stifled and controlled.  A lot of them won't even let you knock an NPC off a cliff.  So in reference to most games, it does feel pretty epic which is the spectacle that is being enjoyed the most.  In another game, like blade and soul, knocking foes back or juggling them in the air is also pretty fun but you still have players that boo hoo about it because they can't belt out their highest damage rotations.

 

So ultimately, this all comes back down to DPS.  People married to DPS checks are why they hate anything that stands in the path of DPS.  So this isn't really about "super heroic" vs other but rather DPS vs anything that gets in the way.

 

Frankly, I don't even want some sort of compromise or improvement that would bridge that gap.  I think KB is fine.  There is no need to appease the playerbase blinded by DPS.  Just enjoy the game.

[Galaxy Brain]

14 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Frankly, I don't even want some sort of compromise or improvement that would bridge that gap.  I think KB is fine.  There is no need to appease the playerbase blinded by DPS.  Just enjoy the game.

Its not just DPS. The way several powers work is to have enemies in certain locations for Control, Defense, etc, which KB can disrupt. Given it can be disruptive and there exist directly comparable mechanics that are not disruptive that hold the same benefits, normal KB should be brought up to par to where it is not seen as lesser but as a tactical trade off.

[Naraka]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Its not just DPS. The way several powers work is to have enemies in certain locations for Control, Defense, etc, which KB can disrupt. Given it can be disruptive and there exist directly comparable mechanics that are not disruptive that hold the same benefits, normal KB should be brought up to par to where it is not seen as lesser but as a tactical trade off.

I'm aware of AoE effects and knocking every or nearly all foes out of a designated choke point can be disheartening, but most KB won't do that.  With the exception of powers like Nova, you might knock a handful out of a specific point and regardless of the purpose of the AoE effects, those knocked back ARE controlled so that mostly leaves what actually is the most concern is.  It's DPS.

 

If you just so happened to drop down an AoE sleep patch and some someone knocks some of the foes out of it, does it matter that they are no longer asleep because of that? No it doesn't.

 

Does it matter that they aren't getting some of their endurance drained?  No, it doesn't.

 

Does it matter that now the tank is missing 3-4% defense because those foes aren't in their aura?  You can calculate the survival drop on paper but at the same time, those foes aren't doing anything for the time and if their survival was broken by that bit of defense then maybe that team needs MORE KB.

 

So what else do you have?  I'm willing to put my whole argument into the premise that, yes, this is all about DPS.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

I think Null the Gull should have an option "Turn all my character's knockback into knockdown"
Problem solved without wrecking the characters that WANT KB.
Just like he could have an option "Turn off my pet's bounding boxes'

so some sets,, like demons, would probably turn them off, while ninjas and thugs would probably keep them turned on.

Oh ... the ALL OR NOTHING plan.

 

Still amazed that it seems to be hard to comprehend that what is desired is Knockback ON DEMAND so that the Player can exercise a measure of control over their Knockback DEPENDING ON THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME ... because circumstances change from moment to moment ALL THE TIME.

 

The One Size Fits All Solution™ only satisfies the lazy who don't want to have to deal with it, not the actively engaged who want to be clever/intelligent with their use of the tool.

 

 

 

Come on, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out.