Make alternative IO sets to Luck of the Gambler

[Galaxy Brain]

On some builds, hasten and a lot of + rech is not needed.

 

But I would argue that on most, recharge allows you to become multiplicatively stronger due to how it scales plus how many powers are on longish recharges to begin with. Hard hitting attacks, defensive clicks, reliable mez, summons, powerful support powers all usually have a recharge that prevents them from being used too often. But, since recharge is % based you get more bang out of all these types of powers the more rech you get as you shave tons of seconds off at a time to allow you to rotate the powers in more and more to allow you to defeat enemies faster or simply survive encounters more reliably.

 

I would argue that while yes,  lt every build needs recharge / hasten, it is always a fantastic option to gun for and that is indicative of the base gameplay being a bit rooted in time = money for some things (old mmo roots) as well as the recharge bonuses attainable having few rivals to compete with in terms of goals for slotting.

 

 

[Outrider_01]

What is just the recharge inside of the 120 duration?   #?/120, number crunching isn't my thing.   

 

• Can just reduce Hasten to 35%?  Free IO basically.
•  
• Move the +7.5% LoTG to the third bonus, instead of a single IO?  Kill all builds except Defense power sets. More so like all 5 slot bonus in may sets.
• Make it +7.5% LoTG. IO unique?  To powerful when it stacks, that one Dev was high when it slipped by.
• Maybe remove that Def/+7.5% to just 7.5% enhancementby itself?  Now you are giving up some Defense in exchange for plain recharge, just as much as Kismet has a +Acc by itself.  Need another Def enhancement to max out Maneuvers/Weave benefit or another deeply slotted 6 slot bonus to FoTM build.

 

When you get it down to to 120ish recharge 120 duration, its perma in a way that it is back up before it's done ( or three is a mechanicI don'tknow abou).  +recharge proc helps when it goes off in knock down powers.  This includes Incarnate, not sure if just normal powers is possible.

 

Also want to mention, highest I got in builds is 240%, don't think I can get it higher without compromises the entire build.  All my builds are paper Mids theory, but +Def 6 out of 7 type (mostly Energy Aura or lots of Winter sets any AT fits) fits my thoughts more then recharge.  If you need max recharge, you got to give something up. 

 

I am all for a revamp of IO bonuses, but too much bonus in a single plain Enhancement would not be the way.  2.5 recharge at slot 5 or .63 type Defense is useless in most cases, more rounded out slightly higher would be nice.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On some builds, hasten and a lot of + rech is not needed.

If min/maxing is your playstyle, I'd say yes, *for that,* and *for those builds,* it's "needed."

 

As a general rule, though, no, it is not, any more than all the costume slots are needed, or a purpled-out set of IOs is needed. It's a choice by the player. Lamenting (as was done earlier) how Hasten takes away choices or people "must" build for recharge is sitting there with your nose rubbed up right against the bark, ignoring all the other trees around you.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Greycat

[Zepp]

First off, I was an early adopter of Hasten (before power customization and when you had to have the yellow pompoms of death). However, I currently only have Hasten in two of my 19 active builds. Rule of thumb, most builds can meet their recharge needs with the same amount of recharge you need to get pre-Hasten for perma-Hasten... I need to review my Ice/Time Troller and see if I can shift my slots for perma-Chrono Shift sans Hasten (which means I will likely be down to just my Ill/SS Troller needing Hasten)... If you really look at your builds, most of them are better without Hasten...

[Haijinx]

Buried in a post above is a suggested  nerf to hasten.

 

Good luck everyone.  Save yourselves.  

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

If I have hasten, I want it to be perma.  Cause otherwise its annoying. 

If you have a  build that truly benefits from hasten sure. But also keep in mind the pre IO era concept of perma hasten was just having hastens 70% global recharge bonus. That is pretty easy to get in an end game build just from 5 purple sets and a few lotg specials without any real build sacrifice, Thats still like 2 free recharge SOs in every power which is more then enough for any offensive AT to easily have a full attack chain unless they are going for some build that only uses a few of their primary/2ndary attack powers for whatever reason( example my high recharge perma soul drain dark scrapper only uses 4 attacks from his dark melee pool so indeed does leverage his huge global recharge bonus to have a full attack chain and isnt exactly an exemplar friendly build).

 

Also why is it so annoying? Before one can perma Hasten it gets used much like build up as a buff up before a fight. sure you wont have it every fight, but that is true for everyone for a fair few levels before ones build can fit in enough global recharge from sets to make it happen and in fact have to have more then hastens bonus inherently to make hasten perma.

 

I see builds all the time that have plenty of attack powers, and are toggle heavy that still wastefully burn an entire pool just for hasten, and these same players often chafe at the 4 pool limit. I chafe at it myself but far more due to RP reasons and wanting pools to be equal and viable powers alongside primary/secondary choices. I just simply think its poor design to try to make the pool powers inferior because then we end up with the disparity that leads to people seeing hasten as one of the handful of worthwhile powers to take.

 

To state my simple point again. If your build is toggle heavy, and has enough attacks to have a full attack chain, hasten really isnt adding enough to make it a must have, and one can likely find fun and flavorful alternatives for the pool slot freed by not taking hasten, unless ofcourse one really wants super speed as their travel power.

[MunkiLord]

13 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I think for this to work, the Bonus needs to sourced the same, so the two can't stack.  Otherwise you'd just end up with people Slotting five Gamblers, AND five of whatever else we make.

 

I think this is a good idea, with that limitation in mind.  I believe it would encourage more diverse Builds, allowing players to source the Bonuses from more Powers, and explore different options in the Powers they would have otherwise been using as mere "mules."

I agree with this. 

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hasten is so powerful that it invalidates other build choices even on a casual level, and often if you are looking for powers to pick it is a toss up between.... well you name it, and the best power in the game.

 

I cant tell you how often I sit on a character looking at pool powers and just not knowing wtf to take over it.

 

Hasten aside, an alternative to LotG would be nice if it were made exclusive to it as well somehow as @ArchVileTerrormentioned.

Combat Jumping is the best power in the game! Well it’s my favorite, and that’s basically the same thing since I’m everybody’s favorite, which makes me the best. Combat Jumping > Oxygen. 

[tidge]

On its face, it isn't unreasonable to ask for new Enhancement sets with improved procs, but I don't think Global Recharge is the place to look. As was pointed out, unless the name exactly the same as LotG, players will just add those new pieces to builds with NxLotG pieces (where N =< 5).

 

I'd prefer that new IO sets be considered for types that currently don't have PVP or Purple versions. I don't think that adding Global Recharge pieces to hypothetically new sets would be my first choice. For example:

 

Fear: I think Fear and Slow are the only Mez/Control set that don't have a fifth choice (either PVP or Purple). I want a Purple set with a sixth piece proc for "Contagious Fear" similar to the Coercive Persuasion set... In my experience one of the big advantages of the Contagious Confusion proc is that it keeps the single-target Confuses as a viable control when facing larger groups of enemies. Tight now, the single-target Fear attacks lose almost all of their viability against larger groups. Purple set bonuses for Fear would also be appreciated, not just for the improvement to stats, but to have a set that scales to all levels.

 

Taunt: Also only has 2-pairs of sets (uncommon/rare in 2 level ranges). There is no reason to not have a fifth set with "Purple-ish" set bonuses. My personal preference would be that one of the multi-slot bonuses from such a set would include bonuses to Ranged/AoE defense, to synergize with the role of Taunting. I know the mechanics of Taunt are subtly different than other effects, so a "contagious taunt" is probably not viable, but a 6th piece with something like %Knockdown might be fun, keeping in mind that "6th piece procs" are often considered to be slotted in other powers (attacks) to improve certain aspects of those powers. I wouldn't want to open any cans of worms by considering a PvP Taunt set. As with Fear, it would be nice to have a set whose bonuses scale across all (level) content.

 

Slow: The existing Slow IO sets offer variety in the bonuses that I don't see in the Fear set, so I am less personally invested in seeing a 5th set... but I am open to one. I will say that the market has pretty much identified a single piece (%Smashing Damage) as being much more desirable than all other Slow IO pieces, which is an indication that we probably deserve more choices. As with Fear and Taunt, I'd like a set that scales across all levels (as Slows are often very low tier powers). I'm not sure what kind of '6th piece proc' I'd want from such a set, but another choice of %Damage might be an option for those ATs that don't get a lot of raw damage.

 

I don't have strong opinions on adding to the Buff/Debuff sets, except that the ability to cross-slot Accurate/Non-Accurate sets is appreciated.

[Heraclea]

It is probably too late to make the 7.5% recharge from the set unique.  Which probably should have been done from the get-go.   

 

I have plenty of characters that don't slot for recharge above all else.  An Invulnerability tanker, for instance, doesn't need all that recharge.   Easier ways to add survivability than having Dull Pain up most of the time.  Any character with a click mez protection power like shields or reflexes will have something else on autofire and will seldom actually use Hasten.  The only character I have with a recharge above all else build is a dominator.  I spent a shedload of inf and merits on that one and seldom play her.   Way too fiddly and fussy. 

[tidge]

11 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I'm no expert, Bent, but I'm pretty sure the point of focusing on Global Recharge is to make "Proc Monsters."

I almost never build to be a 'proc monster' (*1) but at high enough levels I almost always have multiple sets with a proc, and I absolutely want that proc firing as much as possible... and Global Recharge does help with that. Otherwise this is not the primary reason for me to chase Global Recharge (with or without Hasten). For me, its one of two reasons:

 

1) Having the long-recharge powers available more often. Could be attacks, could be pet summons, could be heals. Those powers are usually key to my character concept, and I want them available ASAP! As was expressed by others, there are many builds (in my mind) don't need that much Global recharge to match the play with the concept.

 

2) As an extension of the above, on a few of my toons I want certain Buffs to auto-fire on a reliable schedule (often incorporating a proc, as was mentioned). Tuning the amount of Global Recharge has been key for those toons, with or without Hasten.

 

(*1) I was going to make some observations about 'proc monster builds' but those are unnecessary.

Edited April 8, 2020 by tidge

[Yomo Kimyata]

18 hours ago, nyttyn said:

  

The current consequence of "you don't get to pick a fun power pool" kinda blows, since it's not really even a choice of "something fun you'll use maybe a few times a session vs 10% more global recharge" if you even somewhat care about a build. 

It's totally a choice.  Are you telling me that dropping 10% global recharge cripples your build to the point where it is unplayable?  Because I would give that up in a heartbeat if I wanted to use Jump Kick even once in a session.  

 

This chessboard of a universe is open to all kinds of games.  Make your choice and choose what kind of game you want to play.  If that's a min-max game, have at it!  If it's about having a more fun experience while still steamrolling your opponents at 0.1% less efficiency, that's good too!

[ShardWarrior]

18 hours ago, nyttyn said:

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have a choice

Of course you have choices.

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Combat Jumping > Oxygen.

Truth.

 

Fighting Darrin Wade on the moon? No biggie.

 

Playing without Combat Jumping? UUUUUUGH.

[MTeague]

55 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

It is probably too late to make the 7.5% recharge from the set unique.  Which probably should have been done from the get-go.

I'm not convinced it would be all that traumatic if they DID make it unique.

I mean, there would be many angry posts. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Some ragequits. 

 

But while it might make true perma HASTEN much more difficult without team buffs (note: pretty sure perma-Hasten would be still be very achieveable if you do include team buffs....), It would still be very doable to have perma-Domination without it (though, yes, there would be X seconds of cooldown on Hasten and you'd need to keep an eye on it).

 

I'm not really expecting any such changes to happen, of course. But I don't think the world would end.

[Monos King]

19 hours ago, nyttyn said:

Problem: Luck of the Gambler (LotG)'s Global Recharge Bonus constrains build slots because every competitively built set needs five mule slots for them, which constrains power pool picks. Already a big problem in that fighting, leaping/flying and super speed are core on most builds, LotG makes Leadership or Concealment core on most too. 

Are you saying LotG is a slot tax? Because I've been involved in a few slot tax discussions lately and I really don't think this meets the cut. It's only a tax if your performance is determined by the enhancements slotted; like it's necessary. Even base power recharges are manageable technically, once you get all the other recharge set bonuses and hasten, and whatever +rech powers you have, maybe even unrelent and adrenal booster...you can't really say LotG is a tax at all. You probably have other powers to use during whatever downtime exists after all that. It's like any other IO bonus; a benefit that you can decide if you want or not. If you're power panicking and recharge obsessed and comparing your personal rech to everyone else, then you'll probably want to invest in getting those entire pool powers just to slot LotG. But I definitely don't, that's a total waste of a pool pick. I suggest just not doing that. 

 

You said you're competitively building, right? This isn't a problem then, competition already implies challenge and sacrifice. You guys are literally going down to the slot to get whatever edge you think will have over the next guy, testing the limits of build design. Doesn't asking to make it easier kind of defeat the purpose? 

 

I'm totally ok with just flat out adding like one or two new unique global rechs because extra recharge wouldn't hurt or cause any problems but LotG is totally auxiliary and not necessary. Making game changes to further optimize optimized performance just for the sake of it though? Can't say I agree with that reasoning.

[Heraclea]

22 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm not convinced it would be all that traumatic if they DID make it unique.

I mean, there would be many angry posts. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Some ragequits. 

 

But while it might make true perma HASTEN much more difficult without team buffs (note: pretty sure perma-Hasten would be still be very achieveable if you do include team buffs....), It would still be very doable to have perma-Domination without it (though, yes, there would be X seconds of cooldown on Hasten and you'd need to keep an eye on it).

I wouldn't want to pee in other people's cornflakes that way, that's for sure.  Having too many things to 'keep an eye on' simultaneously is the main reason I don't really enjoy playing that expensive Dominator.  Too many contradictory demands on your attention, too many things to keep track of: this is what turns a game from a pastime into a chore.  I say let other people build their fun the way they want. 

[Rathulfr]

 

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Combat Jumping > Oxygen.

 

38 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Playing without Combat Jumping? UUUUUUGH.

 

I feel the same way about Hover on my non-melee characters.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rathulfr

[MTeague]

4 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I feel the same way about Hover on my non-melee characters.

Hover got faster when I wasn't looking.  I mean, it's slower than Fly, sure, but I picked it up on a praetorian Grav / FF controller and he'll cross Imperial City with it pretty close to the amount of time it would take him to just run across the zone.  I probably missed an update or two late game in Live.

[Zepp]

Just now, MTeague said:

Hover got faster when I wasn't looking.  I mean, it's slower than Fly, sure, but I picked it up on a praetorian Grav / FF controller and he'll cross Imperial City with it pretty close to the amount of time it would take him to just run across the zone.  I probably missed an update or two late game in Live.

You can get Hover to cap...

[MunkiLord]

6 minutes ago, Zepp said:

You can get Hover to cap...

Wait, what? How do I do this?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Eldyem]

12 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I keep trying to explain this and will do so again. Plenty of builds simply do not benefit in a meaningful enough way to warrant a focus on global recharge, or need hasten.

 

For example A scrapper that takes most of his attack powers is going to have a full attack chain, and frankly I loathe spamming just the last couple attacks over and over as it makes for a very dull thing to watch. Take my STJ Stalker as an example he doesnt have hasten, he doesnt have an especially heavy set focus, I did fit in a few LOTG because he is ninjitsu, and he also for thematic reasons has the leadership pool and vengeance so fitting 5 lotg in was easy, but def not needed.

 

My Claw/WP scrapper, same thing dont bother with hasten he is toggle heavy and has a full attack chain without any extra recharge. It would benefit only a couple powers at most, so why bother with a huge investment for little return.

 

Now click heavy sets like Regen or sets with unique aspects taht really should be perma like Drain Psyche or Soul Drain do make perma hasten and all that extra recahrge very much a real want and maybe evena  need for high end play.

 

My point is, Hasten and a global recharge set focus is far from a must or even a want on a great many possible power build combos. And knowing how to optimize builds is part of being good at the game. Making it easier to do so doesnt really do other then make the game easier in general, and we all agree the game can be pretty easy if we want it to be by fine tuning builds to the Nth degree.

Part of the purpose of recharge-heavy builds is to let you not have to take or use a "full" attack chain. There's inefficiencies in using powers that aren't your best. It's interesting that you specifically cite Claws because Claws is a huge offender in this regard; Follow Up and Focus are just so much better than the other attacks that, should you be looking to make a single target attack chain, you'd want to get it as close to Follow up > Focus > Follow Up as physically possible - procs notwithstanding. While we know this obviously isn't doable, stacking recharge on a Claws Scrapper, or any other powerset where some attacks are better than others, is hugely beneficial in terms of DPS.

One of the appeals of high recharge, perma-hasten builds is to have them only impact 2 - 3 powers because the overall impact of having extremely high recharge lets you fully stop caring about garbage powers you put in your tray to fill up time and space.

 

And if we're not arguing about top-tier, efficient builds, then who cares? This game is playable on SOs. There's no coherent "build" discussion that isn't based on maximizing either efficiency or value, and value has gotten so low as to be meaningless unless your build needs like six sets of Winter IOs or something wild. 

[Heraclea]

15 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

For example A scrapper that takes most of his attack powers is going to have a full attack chain, and frankly I loathe spamming just the last couple attacks over and over as it makes for a very dull thing to watch. Take my STJ Stalker as an example he doesnt have hasten, he doesnt have an especially heavy set focus, I did fit in a few LOTG because he is ninjitsu, and he also for thematic reasons has the leadership pool and vengeance so fitting 5 lotg in was easy, but def not needed.

 

My Claw/WP scrapper, same thing dont bother with hasten he is toggle heavy and has a full attack chain without any extra recharge. It would benefit only a couple powers at most, so why bother with a huge investment for little return.

I tend to strongly prefer 'whole game' characters to 'endgame' characters, which is another reason why I don't make characters that only have three or four attacks out of their attack set.  Blasters should have and slot up both the t1 and t2 attacks from their primary (as well as the t1 from their secondary); there's a discussion on the blaster forum about why this is so.  I enjoy running lower level task forces on fully built 50+ characters.  Some can solo them; an elite boss version of the AV does not faze them.  (They're still more fun on teams.) 

 

Characters that benefit from Hasten and +recharge tend to rely on click powers for survival (e.g. a Regen or Fire character) or have major offense powers that are slow in coming (e.g. Ice/Plants blaster).  Outside of those Hasten is by no means a necessity.  I do often take it as a 49 power when nothing else looks better.  But that's hardly necessary. 

[Zepp]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:41 AM, MunkiLord said:

Wait, what? How do I do this?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

10ish global movement speed +flight speed in Swift +flight speed in Hover

or

20ish global movement speed +flight speed in Swift +flight speed & flight speed/endurance in Hover

 

Don't have the exact numbers worked out, but something around that will get you there. Hell, with a little work you can make Afterburner worthwhile with Hover...

Oops, found out it was a mistake with Mids.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Zepp

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Zepp said:

10ish global movement speed +flight speed in Swift +flight speed in Hover

or

20ish global movement speed +flight speed in Swift +flight speed & flight speed/endurance in Hover

 

Don't have the exact numbers worked out, but something around that will get you there. Hell, with a little work you can make Afterburner worthwhile with Hover...

Well, this means I’m going to give Hover another chance. 

[Chris24601]

My opinion?

 

1) Make Hasten’s recharge timer immune to all buffs and enhancements.

2) give the LotG recharge buff the same name as the other +7.5% recharge buffs.

3) ???

4) Profit!

 

Alternately... reduce all recharge timers by a third, then remove Hasten from the game.

 

Option 3... make Hasten an Auto power in line with the various “reaction time” powers found in certain powersets (ex. Tac arrow or Night Widow training); ie. +20% recharge, +X% run speed. This would actually be in line with the philosophy of pool powers not exceeding the capacity of primary/secondary set powers that do similar things.

 

~~~~~~

 

The thing is... once the carrot of making the horribly overpowered Hasten permanent becomes impossible, a lot of the meta for pushing the +recharge you need to achieve permanent Hasten will melt away.

 

That said; I suspect 90% of the playbase wouldn’t even notice because they aren’t optimization-builders who tweak their pre-planned builds on Pines to eke out every ounce of recharge in pursuit of some platonic ideal of recharge.

 

Honestly, I suspect if the devs just removed recharge from the t1 attacks so it could spammed to the limits of endurance; roughly half the playerbase would just spam that attack and be done with it.