Time Manipulation/Dual Pistols/Soul Mastery ... Say Your Bullet Time Prayers

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Anytime. Let me know if you need any analysis done. I'm guessing I'll have to expand on my simulator program to incorporate additional procs, which sounds like a fun weekend project.

No rush.  It's nice to know, but not exactly necessary (or in high demand) to know to exhaustive depths of certainty like you're prone to providing.  ^_~

[Redlynne]

Prologue post updated again with the fungible exchange between Soul Drain and Dark Embrace.  I would honestly consider the Dark Embrace option more "viable" on a Superior/Purple 50 build, to be honest, since dropping Soul Drain for Dark Embrace will mean losing 5% of global recharge.

 

However, a cross-pollination side effect of doing this is that now I'm looking at my Peacebringer (and Warshade) build(s) and wondering what might be possible if attempting to leverage multiple sets of 2-slot Bombardment would do for them in terms of being able to outrange $Targets for hover blasting in Nova form.

[Redlynne]

Little bit of extra research here.

 

I was basically wondering how much extra damage the Fire DoT adds to raw (0% Resistances) base damage output so as to start figuring a baseline for how much of an advantage you (and your team) gets from Piercing Rounds.  So first I computed the multiplier/magnifier for Incendiary Ammo vs Standard Ammo using the 80% chance to proc the Fire DoT and got these results.

• Incendiary Ammo vs Standard Ammo
  • Pistols: (25.3+10.84+3*4.08*0.8)/(25.3+10.84) = 1.271x
  • Dual Wield: (33.4+14.31+4*4.08*0.8)/(33.4+14.31) = 1.274x
  • Empty Clips: (4*6.58+4*2.82+3*4.08*0.8)/(4*6.58+4*2.82) = 1.260x
  • Bullet Rain: (3*8.42+3*3.61+3*4.08*0.8)/(3*8.42+3*3.61) = 1.271x
  • Executioner's Shot: (53.64+22.99+4*6.11*0.8)/(53.64+22.99) = 1.255x
  • Piercing Rounds: (58.2+24.94+3*6.11*0.8)/(58.2+24.94) = 1.176x
  • Hail of Bullets: (12*11.49+12*4.92+5*7.23*0.8)/(12*11.49+12*4.92) = 1.147x

Suppressive Fire was "ignored" for this since it's basically a mez power that also happens to do a token (single digits) amount of damage, where "twice nothing is still nothing" as far as these other powers are concerned.

 

I then took those numbers and flipped them around (numerator/denominator on the division) so as to compute how much damage Standard Ammo produces against $Targets affected by the -20% Resistance to All except Toxic when using Piercing Rounds and got the following results (when doing a divide by 0.8 of the Lethal damage for Standard Ammo).

• Standard Ammo with Piercing Rounds -20% Resistance to All except Toxic for 10s vs Incendiary Ammo
  • Pistols: ((25.3+10.84)/0.8)/(25.3+10.84+3*4.08*0.8) = 0.984x
  • Dual Wield: ((33.4+14.31)/0.8)/(33.4+14.31+4*4.08*0.8) = 0.981x
  • Empty Clips: ((4*6.58+4*2.82)/0.8)/(4*6.58+4*2.82+3*4.08*0.8) = 0.992x and 0.793x
  • Bullet Rain: ((3*8.42+3*3.61)/0.8)/(3*8.42+3*3.61+3*4.08*0.8) = 0.983x and 0.787x
  • Executioner's Shot: ((53.64+22.99)/0.8)/(53.64+22.99+4*6.11*0.8) = 0.996x
  • Piercing Rounds: ((58.2+24.94)/0.8)/(58.2+24.94+3*6.11*0.8) = 1.063x
  • Hail of Bullets: ((12*11.49+12*4.92)/0.8)/(12*11.49+12*4.92+5*7.23*0.8) = 1.090x and 0.872x

The "and lower multiplier" number accounts for the differential in damage throughput onto $Targets in the respective AoE powers that have not been debuffed by Piercing Rounds (which has a Max Targets of 3 and is a 4º Cone, so very unlikely to aid damage throughput against plentiful $Targets).

 

What this research tells me is that against a single $Target, all else being equal (and assuming no additional damage procs) that when fighting single targets the benefit(s) of Standard Ammo versus Incendiary Ammo to derive benefit from the Resistance debuffing for 10s of Piercing Rounds (which can stack??) makes the damage production against a single target when solo "competitive" with the damage boost from Incendiary Ammo due to the Resistance debuffing.  The differential with an attack chain that features 2x Pistols, 1x Dual Wield, 1x Suppressive Fire and 1x Piercing Rounds (as detailed upthread) is almost a rounding error in terms of raw numbers (1.0097x) ... except for the effects of Resistance debuffing on damage procs (which this build loads up on in Suppressive Fire where the advantage clearly swings towards Standard Ammo over the alternative of Incendiary Ammo).

 

However, in AoE damaging situations, Incendiary Ammo will remain the clear choice for dealing more damage per power activation over the alternative ammo types, barring vulnerabilities in Resistances of the $Targets being shot at.

 

 

 

So the research points to ... when soloing ... use Standard Ammo against single targets when you have access to Piercing Rounds, and use Incendiary Ammo against multiple targets when using Empty Clips+Bullet Rain (and Hail of Bullets) even when having access to Piercing Rounds if DPS is your primary consideration.

 

However, when teamed ... it becomes even more imperative to use Standard Ammo against (hard) single targets when you have access to Piercing Rounds, since the Resistance debuffing applied will magnify/multiply the damage throughput onto that $Target of everyone on the team, even if your own damage production remains "flat" relative to using Incendiary Ammo with Piercing Rounds.

 

Just one of those little quirks about Dual Pistols that makes you go, "Hmmmm ..."  🤔

[Bopper]

Something to remember about the ticks, they are cancel on miss (at least it says it is, I haven't tested to verify). For cancel on miss, the average number of ticks hitting is calculated as:

0.8+0.8^2+...+0.8^N, where N is the max number of ticks.

 

Fun fact, Mids actually calculates this correctly (although they do the math slightly odd, but it's correct), and the in game average damage calculation does it correct. You'd think with all the things that are bugged or done wrong, I would have thought it'd be this.

 

A second thing, I'm wondering why you're dividing by 0.8. If you're factoring in the 20% more damage, shouldn't you be multiplying by 1.2, or divide by 0.8333?

Edited April 17, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

While on the subject of mechanics, the Hail of Bullets is actually up to 12 ticks, each tick having 60% probability to tick. However, there is a bug posted here that shows the standard ammo is the only one that is applying its minor ticks of damage at 60% rate. Incendiary and Chemical are having 100% of their ticks firing and Cryo is having 0% of its ticks firing.

[Bopper]

Looks like they are already fixing the bug I found so you can now expect all 12 ticks from Hail of Bullets to have an expectation of 7.2 ticks hitting. Also all procs work in Hail of Bullets again, so that's nice.

 

A suggestion for your Piercing Rounds analysis, also look into what the effects would be when you include the resistance debuffs from Slowed Response. Your numbers will change from Piercing rounds providing a 20% damage boost to a 15.38% damage boost (150%/130%=15.38%)

[Redlynne]

50 minutes ago, Bopper said:

A suggestion for your Piercing Rounds analysis, also look into what the effects would be when you include the resistance debuffs from Slowed Response.

I was confining my analysis to Dual Pistols only so as to keep the findings generic enough to pair with any other powerset.  However, stacking Resistance debuffs is definitely going to be a feature of this build!

[Bopper]

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I was confining my analysis to Dual Pistols only so as to keep the findings generic enough to pair with any other powerset.  However, stacking Resistance debuffs is definitely going to be a feature of this build!

Fair enough. But since we're talking about this in a thread about Time/DP defenders, I went ahead and updated your analysis from above and included Slowed Response in the analysis. I also corrected the numbers to reflect expected value for Incendiary Ammo ticks and also Hail of Bullet's tick probability.

 

Since your numbers were a favorable benefit to the effects of the resistance debuff as well as the incendiary ticks, your ratios were not that far off (two wrongs can make a right). It's also worth keeping in mind that procs get buffed by the resistance debuffs, so if you incorporate procs, you will see the ratios favor standard ammo more so than what these numbers would indicate (but we are only talking single target, of course, and we're not analyzing the detriments of Piercing Round's slow animation for DPS attack chains). My take on Piercing Rounds...I use it only for team utility in boss fights (-res debuffs for a team is worth more than your lone DPS) and I only slot it as a 3-piece Defender ATO mule (+3.6% endurance and +10% recharge on the cheap).

 

[Redlynne]

46 minutes ago, Bopper said:

we are only talking single target

Interesting data.  It does however show that Standard Ammo can "keep pace" with Incendiary Ammo against a single target when doing a SF > P > DW > P > PR > repeat single target attack chain when accounting for the 20% Resistance debuff.

0.9833 * 0.9984 * 0.9833 * 1.0495 = 101.31%

 

But that's completely discounting the effect on the slotting of Suppressive Fire as a proc monster damage power (that also increases accuracy and mez duration!).  The increase in damage there is just going to swamp the rounding error of difference between Standard Ammo and Incendiary Ammo ... hence why I'm thinking it would be severely advantageous to switch to Standard Ammo for the single target rotation, but stick to Incendiary Ammo for the AoE target rotation, due to the debuffing multiplier effect on those damage procs in Suppressive Fire for the single target rotation (to say nothing of the team benefits).

 

Validation/verification appreciated.

[Redlynne]

Was able to buy both Defender ATOs off the market this past week and slot them into Pistols and Dual Wield ... and hoo boy do they make a difference!

 

The PBAoE Absorb shield sounds like a Force Fielder casting bubbles, but there are no visual FX (although there are sound FX) and there's no buff icon that appears, so it's not the easiest proc to trace in terms of effectiveness.  However, I know the Absorb shield is working because I've taken hits (from Clockwork, mainly) that yield no damage throughput.

 

The PBAoE Heal is more obvious, since there are visual FX to go with the sound FX, so that's easier to verify that it has happened.

 

And although the procs aren't happening on every attack (more like 1 per 3 or 1 per 4 on average), they still proc plenty often ... and have been making a difference for me while soloing the Power arc in Imperial City of Praetoria.  So a pricey investment, but well worth shelling out for as soon as you've got enough INF and slots invested into powers to acquire as early as you can while leveling.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Was able to buy both Defender ATOs off the market this past week and slot them into Pistols and Dual Wield ... and hoo boy do they make a difference!

 

The PBAoE Absorb shield sounds like a Force Fielder casting bubbles, but there are no visual FX (although there are sound FX) and there's no buff icon that appears, so it's not the easiest proc to trace in terms of effectiveness.  However, I know the Absorb shield is working because I've taken hits (from Clockwork, mainly) that yield no damage throughput.

 

The PBAoE Heal is more obvious, since there are visual FX to go with the sound FX, so that's easier to verify that it has happened.

 

And although the procs aren't happening on every attack (more like 1 per 3 or 1 per 4 on average), they still proc plenty often ... and have been making a difference for me while soloing the Power arc in Imperial City of Praetoria.  So a pricey investment, but well worth shelling out for as soon as you've got enough INF and slots invested into powers to acquire as early as you can while leveling.

I've always found the absorb proc to be uninspiring. Level 50, it grants a 7.5% absorb from base HP (80.3 HP shield for all) and you only get one per cast. It stacks on multiple casts though, so that's nice. Empty Clips does well with its fast recharge and AoE (for multiple proc chances) to keep it reliably firing.

 

The Heal Proc is nice though, especially because it can be power boosted. I think I've hit something like 387 Heals with it using Clarion and PB.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Bopper

[Redlynne]

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

I've always found the absorb proc to be uninspiring. Level 50, it grants a 7.5% absorb from base HP (80.3 HP shield for all) and you only get one per cast. It stacks on multiple casts though, so that's nice. Empty Clips does well with its fast recharge and AoE (for multiple proc chances) to keep it reliably firing.

Is that 7.5% for the base version or the Superior version?

I was not aware that it stacked.  Does each proc have a duration before it expires?  I've sometimes gotten 3 procs in a row of the Absorb shield from Pistols and was wondering whether they would overwrite each other or stack ... but since there's no buff icon that appears it's really hard to tell.  Which chat field (damage, healing, etc.) shows the procs happening for the Absorb and also the notation for when they expire?

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

The Heal Proc is nice though, especially because it can be power boosted. I think I've hit something like 387 Heals with it using Clarion and PB.

NICE.  😎

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Is that 7.5% for the base version or the Superior version?

I was not aware that it stacked.  Does each proc have a duration before it expires?  I've sometimes gotten 3 procs in a row of the Absorb shield from Pistols and was wondering whether they would overwrite each other or stack ... but since there's no buff icon that appears it's really hard to tell.  Which chat field (damage, healing, etc.) shows the procs happening for the Absorb and also the notation for when they expire?

NICE.  😎

the 7.5% is the Superior version.

 

I didn't know it stacked either, the only power I've ever used it in is Acid Arrow from TA (Which causes it to proc almost every time)  The only way to track it fires is the FF Bubble sound or looking at your health bar.  and yes, it expires, but I don't know the duration, somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds I believe.  I'm usually getting hit too much for it to matter 😛

[Redlynne]

Just now, Psyonico said:

the 7.5% is the Superior version.

So 5% for non-Superior version and 7.5% for the Superior version then.

1 minute ago, Psyonico said:

I don't know the duration, somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds I believe.

The example of Spirit Ward in the Sorcery pool would be a 15 second duration.

I can easily imagine that 5-10 seconds feels about right when the "thickness" of the Absorb is so "thin" (5% to 7.5% of HP) and gets blown through so quickly.

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Is that 7.5% for the base version or the Superior version?

I was not aware that it stacked.  Does each proc have a duration before it expires?  I've sometimes gotten 3 procs in a row of the Absorb shield from Pistols and was wondering whether they would overwrite each other or stack ... but since there's no buff icon that appears it's really hard to tell.  Which chat field (damage, healing, etc.) shows the procs happening for the Absorb and also the notation for when they expire?

NICE.  😎

Superior, 7.5% of 1071 HP (80.3 HP). It is a 20s duration, I don't know the stack limit. It only does one Absorb for each cast.

 

To monitor you have to look at your health bar. On top of your green bar a gray bar will appear when you have the absorb. Hover over it to see the amount of absorb, it will be in parentheses (+80.3), (+160.6), etc.

 

Edit: I was responding to a notification. It looks like you already were given your answer.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Bopper

[bl4zzilla]

Hi there!

Do you maybe have am idea why i cant open your mids? the alt tab is empty and the normal one is 1/4 empty.

 

I got the 2.6.0.7 version.

Ty 🙂

 

EDIT: I'll answer that myself:

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by bl4zzilla

[Redlynne]

31 minutes ago, bl4zzilla said:

EDIT: I'll answer that myself:

That's the reason.  😇

[Cakes]

On 4/9/2020 at 1:44 PM, Bopper said:

Thank you, this is helpful

 

This was a concern I had too. With Tactics on, Time Crawl and Slowed Response had 95% chance to hit for +2, 89% for +3, and 82.5% chance at +4. That was good enough for me, but not for everyone. I probably would use Slowed Response first to improve my odds of Time Crawl hitting, but then I lose out on the extra benefits of Delay. 

 

You could try to move Tactics to earlier in the build and plug in a Kismet. That comes at a cost though as Assault also needs to move up. So either you can replace Hover with Maneuvers (and use a jet pack for your flying needs), then swap Tactics with Time Stop, or move Assault somewhere very early but you lose one of your better powers until late game (Distortion Field, Hover, Temporal Selection). But let's say you figure that out, and you put in a Kismet and run Tactics, you will then achieve 90% chance to hit at +4 and 95% chance to hit at +3.

 

True, but Executioner's Shot and maybe Piercing Rounds (if it's in your attack chain, I took it out of mine) are the only attacks that truly take advantage of that 15% chance at +80% damage. If you're firing it once every 5 seconds (not sure what your attack chain is, but let's say it's Pistols-DW-ES, then you could fire it every 4.884 seconds. In that case, using a simulator I built, you will see an average uptime of approximately 15.1% (15.3% with stacking)⁺.

 

If you are using a chain of ES - PR - Pistols - DW, then you would fire ES once every 7.524 seconds. In that case you will see an average uptime of approximately 9.85%⁺, however your chain is so long that ES would never benefit from the buff.

 

So basically, on average you are looking at boosting your damage by 12.24% with the first chain, and the second chain would average a 7.88% damage boost and none of that goes to your best DPA attack. Ultimately, there just isn't meat on the bone, so I went with an Apoc set that would boost the damage of all the powers by 4%, plus gives Executioner's Shot an extra 17% enhanced damage, and you get more recharge and HP out of your build. And a purple damage proc...almost forgot that.

⁺Full disclosure, I assume the boost works as a replacement, so I applied a 5.25s duration, but I did not provide a lockout of 4.75s afterwards. I assume if you get the proc again, it will refresh the 5.25s. I also stacked the buffs if it were to happen.

 

It does have great synergy, but the radius is fairly small so you're not looking at that much damage boost (maybe +50% on average?). If you want true synergy, put the Gaussian Proc in Soul Drain for a near guaranteed +80% damage for Hail of Bullets. However, due to the long animation, I recommend going Soul Drain -> Bullet Rain (make a PBAoE macro) -> Hail of Bullets.

 

Very true, the +2 HOs are superior, but while leveling up where are you getting them? You can't find them at the AH, so you have to run content that grants it and HOPE that you get the drop. And hope for that multiple times, and hope that you don't outlevel the HOs while doing so. Unless I'm completely wrong and the effects work like attuned enhancements, I don't see anyone actually trying to use HOs outside of strictly level 50 content builds.

 

 

 

Made a forum handle just to ask, but what does your build look like?

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Cakes said:

Made a forum handle just to ask, but what does your build look like?

I have a few builds, I don't think I've shared any in awhile, except with my SG. I have Time/DP/Soul and Time/DP/Power builds. Which are you looking for? AoE damage, ST damage?

[Cakes]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

I have a few builds, I don't think I've shared any in awhile, except with my SG. I have Time/DP/Soul and Time/DP/Power builds. Which are you looking for? AoE damage, ST damage?

Both maybe?

 

As of now, I use Red's old build but noticed this was gaining some traction and would like to try it out, even tho the old build still does wonders!

 

Instead of Hover, I went with teleport for rp purposes, but id be interested to see how it all is layed out. You mentioned not using DW and made me curious for a lvl 50 set up (I personally rarely exemplar under 24ish, nor hard sold on Soul)

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Cakes said:

Both maybe?

 

As of now, I use Red's old build but noticed this was gaining some traction and would like to try it out, even tho the old build still does wonders!

 

Instead of Hover, I went with teleport for rp purposes, but id be interested to see how it all is layed out. You mentioned not using DW and made me curious for a lvl 50 set up (I personally rarely exemplar under 24ish, nor hard sold on Soul)

I'll PM you tonight. My soul build is slightly outdated. I'll want to triple check it before I show it off

[Redlynne]

44 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Time/DP/Power

Wait ... Power Mastery ...?

 

/em ducks out to check build planner

 

Oh.

Oh my ...

 

 

So with Power Mastery instead of Soul Mastery, a pre-req power (Soul Drain) doesn't need to be taken ... freeing up that power pick (and all of the slots associated with it) for being put into Executioner's Shot (the one Dual Pistols power I didn't have the slots for).  It would mean dropping Soul Storm from the build, but that would open up a slot for taking Stealth out of the Concealment pool for stealthy positioning into the center of a spawn for optimal positioning for Hail of Bullets as an opening attack, which with Standard Ammo is a 100% Knockdown (against $Targets that do not have Knock Protection).

 

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Wait ... Power Mastery ...?

It does two nice things. You get Power Buildup at level 35, allowing for PBU+Farsight combo at exemplar level 30. Plus, you gain Conserve Power which allows for full Proc builds, as not slotting endurance can be draining, even with Chronoshift.

 

I still take Stealth because it's good utility and a LotG mule, plus PBU+Grant Invis is more defense to the team than Maneuvers.

 

However, it's less fun. The damage boost gained from Soul Drain is fun, and jumping into the middle of mobs is fun to use it. So although my build of Time/DP/Power is technically stronger on paper, /Soul is more enjoyable for me. Plus, Clarion+PB+Farsight is stronger than Clarion+PBU+Farsight.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

It does two nice things. You get Power Buildup at level 35, allowing for PBU+Farsight combo at exemplar level 30. Plus, you gain Conserve Power which allows for full Proc builds, as not slotting endurance can be draining, even with Chronoshift.

 

I still take Stealth because it's good utility and a LotG mule, plus PBU+Grant Invis is more defense to the team than Maneuvers.

 

However, it's less fun. The damage boost gained from Soul Drain is fun, and jumping into the middle of mobs is fun to use it. So although my build of Time/DP/Power is technically stronger on paper, /Soul is more enjoyable for me. Plus, Clarion+PB+Farsight is stronger than Clarion+PBU+Farsight.

Yeah, that's definitely a case of needing to match the playstyle preferences of the Player than something you can necessarily "optimize" for in the build planner and get the same (universally positive) reaction out of everybody.  And yes, this isn't the first time I've run into the situation of seeing something in the build planner that "ought to be weaker" than the alternative, when simply looking at the info in the build planner (ie. in a vacuum) ... but then when you actually start playing it the supposedly "weaker" build winds up being more fun to play and more rewarding to play despite being "objectively weaker" when looking at it in the build planner.  That's part of the reason why I get so detailed in my explanations of my builds, so that people can start to get their hands (and minds) around ideas, concepts and strategies that at first glance look like a detriment when in fact they really aren't in actual gameplay conditions.

 

Which is another way of saying that FUN rarely yields all that well to (mere) spreadsheet analysis.

[Bopper]

18 hours ago, Cakes said:

Made a forum handle just to ask, but what does your build look like?

Sent you some builds