The New Badge Conundrum: A Hopefully Peaceful Discussion

[Yomo Kimyata]

Pro New Badges:  They would be a simple way to add new shinies to the game that do not affect gameplay in any way.  They would be optional not mandatory*.  They could be a way to reward players for doing something unusual, or bragworthy, or even tedious.

 

Anti New Badges:  Collecting additional badges would put an onerous burden on people who feel they "gotta catch them all."

 

* I think that a lot of hardcore badgers might feel that, if it is available, then it is mandatory.  I'm trying to wrap my mind around that.

 

I'm pretty firmly on the Pro side.  I'd love to get new shinies and rewards of any sort that don't make the game easier, but particularly in association with some sort of influence sink.  I also love the idea of badges that are either impossible or nearly impossible to get, because if I'm able to "earn" one, I like the idea of patting myself on the back each time I look at it.

 

Let's see if we can come up with some sort of compromise here that the devs would be able to implement.  Please discuss your views pro and anti!

 

Happy hunting!

 

 

[justicebeliever]

Pro side - bring on the new Badges.  What fun is a collection if there is nothing left to collect.  The more challenging, the more rewarding it is to get the badge

[Rathulfr]

I'm also pro side, for the same reasons listed above.  But I can understand how some people might like the sense of accomplishment from being "finished", and might feel upset by that accomplishment being undone.

 

Is there a badge for earning all of the badges?  I'm thinking of the Loremaster achievement in WoW, which once earned, cannot be rescinded, even though every new expansion pushed the goal posts for that achievement further out for those who hadn't yet achieved it.

 

[Blastit]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I'm also pro side, for the same reasons listed above.  But I can understand how some people might like the sense of accomplishment from being "finished", and might feel upset by that accomplishment being undone.

That's not workable logic to maintain an MMO by, though. What about the people who get upset about new power sets, because they had already played all the power sets?

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Blastit said:

That's not workable logic to maintain an MMO by, though. What about the people who get upset about new power sets, because they had already played all the power sets?

Hey, I didn't say it was logical: I just said I could understand how some people might feel.  I don't agree with it: I just understand it as a possible phenomena.

[Troo]

19 minutes ago, Blastit said:

That's not workable logic to maintain an MMO by, though. What about the people who get upset about new power sets, because they had already played all the power sets?

That's kinda funny.

 

Why wouldn't there be more badges? Don't we already get new participation badges?

[ArchVileTerror]

More Badges is a good thing.

But as it was said in the official Badges topic for the Weekly Discussion, I strongly suggest that all future Badges be built with the design philosophy that they award behaviours that the Devs specifically want to encourage.

 

Grinding and AFK farming need not apply.

 

Another option is to further incentivize particular Badges by having them award Merits, like the Exploration Accolades do.  

Create new Badges such as:

"Collect # of Defeat Achievement Badges" Accomplishment Badges.  Values of 5, 10, 25, 50, 100.  Merits rewarded:  1, 3, 10, 0, 0

Front-loading the Merits like this is intended design to encourage players to reach out and obtain the first few, but not obsess about the rest.  This promotes teaming, choosing diverse content (different enemy groups), and Alt creation, but does not further incentivize long, drawn out grinds, beyond the normal "Badger" mindset (and as a "Badger" myself, I'm willing to give up rewards beyond the first few Badges in a category like this specifically for this design principle).

 

I believe this also addresses the idea discussed in another thread, about "Lateral Progression."  It offers a player the opportunity to achieve something and get rewarded for it, but does not require that they level up in the process.  THAT is ideal game design for City of Heroes:  City of Player Choice.

 

Also, Merits mean more goods, rather than Inf, yadda yadda Inflation argument.  And 14 Merits total for what would amount to at least a few hours of work is probably even too low, but I wanted to err on the side of promoting this idea, rather than making the Devs think of it as a greedy attempt to get more Merits.  I think they could safely scale up the rewards, but I also don't have access to the formulae they're using to determine player time investment.

[justicebeliever]

5 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Grinding and AFK farming need not apply.

Maybe you use Grinding differently than I have heard it used.  Isn't it's definition essentially, leveling up through by missions and street sweeping?  And if so, isn't that desired behavior?

[Greycat]

I think I'm missing something there. How would anyone expect a developing COH not to have more badges? Once Kallisti has content, I'd expect something like (say) new enemies to give defeat badges, for instance, or maybe a Kallisti TF/SF to have one, just because it's been the pattern for other content.

[Greycat]

Just now, justicebeliever said:

Maybe you use Grinding differently than I have heard it used.  Isn't it's definition essentially, leveling up through by missions and street sweeping?  And if so, isn't that desired behavior?

Grinding tends to be less "content focuses" and more "Ugh, I have to kill 1000 rats to do this." IOW, more time-sink (that generally is to encourage people to continue a sub to be able to finish it, or to sell a microtransaction to bypass it.)

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Greycat said:

Grinding tends to be less "content focuses" and more "Ugh, I have to kill 1000 rats to do this." IOW, more time-sink (that generally is to encourage people to continue a sub to be able to finish it, or to sell a microtransaction to bypass it.)

That makes sense.  But I still think there is a lot of space for defeat badges in the game, and wouldn't want them done away with.  Definitely a few that are set too high for the X number of defeats, but still I see their value.

[ArchVileTerror]

Exactly what Greycat said.  "The Grind," in this context, is synonymous with something unpleasant which sucks the fun out of doing a leisure activity.

 

I will never advocate for the removal of any existing content, even the stuff that is blatant examples of intentional time-sinks created to waste players' time.

I WILL advocate to have it tweaked to be more accessible and/or rewarding, though.  We're in the post-profit stage of this game's life.  Time to focus on undoing the mental mindfucks used to exploit human behaviour in regard to habit formation.

[justicebeliever]

6 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Time to focus on undoing the mental mindfucks used to exploit human behaviour in regard to habit formation.

I think this should be largely left to educators and parents.  I'm stuck with the mental habit formation I have, regardless of how it got there.  I want badges to totally cater to my mental behavior and cause me joy.  For me that means it's hard to do.  I'd agree that an excessive defeat all badge isn't helpful to anyone, just a test of someone's willingness to go the distance, but so's the case with running a marathon.  Make em hard.  Make em tedious but doable.  That's fine.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Just now, justicebeliever said:

I think this should be largely left to educators and parents.  I'm stuck with the mental habit formation I have, regardless of how it got there.  I want badges to totally cater to my mental behavior and cause me joy.  For me that means it's hard to do.  I'd agree that an excessive defeat all badge isn't helpful to anyone, just a test of someone's willingness to go the distance, but so's the case with running a marathon.  Make em hard.  Make em tedious but doable.  That's fine.

What a great reply.  I agree completely.  I don't think my desire for challenge or accomplishment or validation was put in place by manufacturers of video games, but that desire still exists, and dammit I'm going to feed that beast.

[ArchVileTerror]

Except Badges aren't just here for one particular player, AND any one who wants to challenge themself to "run a marathon" can do so by making their own personal rules and objectives.

This game is played by thousands of us.  We're definitely not all "marathon runners," but plenty of us are eager to go for a brisk jog from time to time.

This is the same issue that comes up with blanket statements requesting the difficulty of the game be increased, rather than implementing additional optional difficulty settings.

 

Your playstyle is fine, and you should be able to enjoy it.  But not to the clear exclusion of others' playstyle.

 

That's at least the driving force in my personal design philosophy.  We'll have to see where the Homecoming Team think the priorities lie and how to strike a balance.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Except Badges aren't just here for one particular player, AND any one who wants to challenge themself to "run a marathon" can do so by making their own personal rules and objectives.

This game is played by thousands of us.  We're definitely not all "marathon runners," but plenty of us are eager to go for a brisk jog from time to time.

This is the same issue that comes up with blanket statements requesting the difficulty of the game be increased, rather than implementing additional optional difficulty settings.

 

Your playstyle is fine, and you should be able to enjoy it.  But not to the clear exclusion of others' playstyle.

 

That's at least the driving force in my personal design philosophy.  We'll have to see where the Homecoming Team think the priorities lie and how to strike a balance.

Right, but since badges are optional (certainly the ones that don't provide tangible benefits), why not let others people "run the marathon" and get a participation trophy?  If you don't want to run a new marathon, by all means don't!  I'd certainly prefer to run a new marathon than to run a half-marathon blindfolded and hopping on one leg.

 

I guess I'm not seeing how a new optional badge in any way adversely affects anyone's playstyle.

[justicebeliever]

Just now, ArchVileTerror said:

Except Badges aren't just here for one particular player, AND any one who wants to challenge themself to "run a marathon" can do so by making their own personal rules and objectives.

This game is played by thousands of us.  We're definitely not all "marathon runners," but plenty of us are eager to go for a brisk jog from time to time.

This is the same issue that comes up with blanket statements requesting the difficulty of the game be increased, rather than implementing additional optional difficulty settings.

 

Your playstyle is fine, and you should be able to enjoy it.  But not to the clear exclusion of others' playstyle.

 

That's at least the driving force in my personal design philosophy.  We'll have to see where the Homecoming Team think the priorities lie and how to strike a balance.

Here's my concern.  I don't want Badges sanitized down so that all players like them equally.  That's going to remove the challenge and fun for me, and I suspect, most other players.  Some Badges should be easy to get just by playing the game.  But some badges should be difficult to get and force players out of their comfort zone.  That's what makes the reward so special.

 

If every badge is a brisk jog, they will lose their appeal to me.  Badges shouldn't be impossible for a player to get, but they should stretch players into different arenas they don't like.

 

I can't stand PvP, but my badger is going to have to step up to do it, and I'll enjoy the reward I get for suffering through PvP to get the badges.  The same for Master of badges.  I know the badges are optionally and I don't have to get them, and it doesn't make me mad or frustrated that I have to do things I don't like to do normally, but will do them for a reward.  And who knows, maybe I'll like it more than I think.

[ArchVileTerror]

I should probably leave well-enough alone, but I think there's a disconnect happening here . . . 

 

When the word "marathon" comes up, my mind jumps to inane badges like:  https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Temporal_Soldier_Badge

Reduced to 50 on Homecoming, mind you, but it's still clearly the sort of Badge created with the express intent to just waste a player's time.

But even if someone is thinking of "marathon" in a milder context, I still want to emphasize that it's not just about limiting oneself to challenge oneself.

Someone can look down the street and say "the finish line is a block away, but screw that noise!  I'm going to keep running all the way down to the harbour!"

A person can assign their own goals.  The game doesn't restrict that.

 

And I'm not anyone's enemy here.  I do this myself:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/12631-packrat-at-17/

 

And so can you.  I believe in you.

[Doc_Scorpion]

12 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Here's my concern.  I don't want Badges sanitized down so that all players like them equally.  That's going to remove the challenge and fun for me, and I suspect, most other players.  Some Badges should be easy to get just by playing the game.  But some badges should be difficult to get and force players out of their comfort zone.  That's what makes the reward so special.

^^^ Quoted. For. Truth.

There's nothing wrong with making some badges a grind to get.  Contrary to ArchVile's oversimplified version of things, there's more to it that just "creating time sinks".  There's also "creating things the player values".  They're also wrong about the game being "post-profit".  Though the current setup doesn't require profit - it's still in the Dev's best financial interest to keep people engaged, coming back, and willing to donate.  If it goes legit, that applies even more so.  You have to keep 'em coming back.

To many people badges aren't just shinies - they're a measure of accomplishment.  New badges need to be designed with that consideration in mind.

 

[Greycat]

*To me* - a non badger -

- I like exploration badges. I think encouraging people *to* explore and learn some of the lore is great. Some easy, some should be a bit of a challenge to get to ("Destined for Valhalla" is a favourite of mine.)

- Defeat badges *in general* to me, if tied to a zone, should be something a player could reasonably get within spitting distance of through normal content. (For instance, play Croatoa's content, you should be able to get the defeat badges - even if running solo - without too much more work. Running with a full team of 8, you'll have it. Maybe run a Katie to mop up.)  There can be "reach further" badges (like we have for skulls and skull bosses.) But they shouldn't *feel* like a grind.

 

Onerous and ridiculous would be something like.... Defeat 50 Elite Bosses using nothing but Brawl. You might do it to challenge *yourself* but really...

[Obus Form]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Anti New Badges:  Collecting additional badges would put an onerous burden on people who feel they "gotta catch them all."

@Yomo Kimyata I've built up an image of you (complete with sound, facial hair, etc) in my head, so please please please!  Please say it correctly.

 

"Gotta Catch 'Em, All!  Badge-Hunter"

 

 

[Obus Form]

I'm a non-badger, but vote for pro-new-badges to give people something to do/the game alive.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Obus Form

[Yomo Kimyata]

9 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

@Yomo Kimyata I've built up an image of you (complete with sound, facial hair, etc) in my head, so please please please!  Please say it correctly.

 

"Gotta Catch 'Em, All!  Badge-Hunter"

 

 

I'm assuming that it's a Poke Man thing?  Meh.

 

As for me, the details of my life are quite, inconsequential:

 

 

[justicebeliever]

29 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Onerous and ridiculous would be something like.... Defeat 50 Elite Bosses using nothing but Brawl. You might do it to challenge *yourself* but really...

Let me at em...I'll splat em!

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Let me at em...I'll splat em!

With or without pets?  

 

6 slot brawl with 5x procs and an accuracy, use traps or poison for your debuff, Bob's your uncle!