Scrapper Tank? Utter nonsense or viable?

[Vulgaris]

I was sitting down thinking one day- comparing max HP values, resist, defenses...  Especially with brute. And scrapper shares a lot of defensive math with brutes. In fact- The exact damage +resist buff and +defense buff scaling. Down to the numbers 1:1 for the most part.

And sure- brute has more Max HP,  And their base HPs being 100 apart at most- but how many people are building for max HP?  Besides ice armor or regen is anyone hitting cap regularly? Please correct me this is a sincere question.
Sure- Brute has more of a defense cap. But is 225 really much different than 200? And does going over softcap matter?
Sure- Brute can hit higher cap resists, but how many people strive to hit 90 percent resist anyway given how strong defense is in the current meta?

Am I crazy for thinking you could just slather on presence, accuracy, some defensive incarnates and sets and call it a day and be a tank that can roll out crits?

[NEW DAWN]

The kind of fill in for tank role has always been viable right down to the blapper.

[Bopper]

A Bio Scrapper is very sturdy, even in offensive mode. You could tank with it in the sense you can stay upright. How well you hold aggro will depend.

[Vulgaris]

I think any set with a taunting aura like rad/bio would do in a pinch. Though bio does have the tools to sorta push the limits from what I can see.

[ninja surprise]

Basically you can be as unpunchable as a Tank but won't be able to take as many hits as a Tank. Can't hold aggro as well. 

But I've played Scrappers that survive as long as the team's tank. Occasionally outlast them because the Tank pulls the most aggro due to the inherent taunt mechanics.

[Redlynne]

Scrappers CAN be aggro mangets ... however the tools they have to do the job of being an aggro magnet aren't as good/efficient as the tools given to Brutes and Tankers (obviously).  At best you can be a "pocket tank" (or an off tank if that's your preferred terminology), but as a Scrapper your ability to "main tank" will be quite limited.

[nihilii]

Subjectively, I've noticed since the Gauntlet changes a few months ago (same time as Tanker buffs?) my /bio scrappers don't hold aggro as well as they used to. Some enemies run every now and then, despite being in melee. Which is not a bad thing, IMHO. It was always stupid that all it took for every enemy in the game to stick glued to you permanently was a single damage aura with taunt effect.

 

(I say "/bio" scrappers, but it's mostly a result of not playing anything on scrappers BUT /bio these days. Curious to know if /inv, /shield or /rad players have seen the same thing. /wp was always a bit weak, but the point of these Gauntlet changes was supposedly to put them up to par, so it'd be interesting to hear from WP scrappers as well.)

[RubyRed]

I've built a few scrappers that have capped or near-capped defenses/resists so they can tank, it's pretty fun. Dark/dark is probably my fave because of the added tools the sets offer. You're not gonna be quite as good as a real Tanker, especially against some AVs that hit ridiculously hard (like Bobcat) but overall it works. Hardest part is getting group aggro.. taunt auras only get you so far. Not having punchvoke makes things a bit more dicey. I sometimes use Provoke from the pool power but since it has an acc check unlike normal Taunt it can be a bit iffy.

[Sovera]

Things die too fast for prolonged agro holding to matter terribly. A Scrapper can off tank just as well as a Brute does because outside of spreadsheet situations things die fast and the same support that would support a Brute will support a Scrapper.

 

IF no one attacked AND the fight lasted for 30+ seconds, then yeah, death. But we go in at whatever level, team unleashes AoEs, most things are dead and that's the kind of support that does not require a support.

 

That said you're not going to out-tank a Brute or a Tanker, but why would you? It's not a competition, and if it really matters you should roll one. The only thing you should fuss about as a Scrapper is stealing the agro from and keeping your squishies safe (this can be read as your genitals or your support team members so take it as you will since both answers are correct) because nothing says you -need- to be hitting that boss over there while two lieutenants are hitting your low damage Controller buddy while he tries to whittle them down.

[VV]

On 4/13/2020 at 2:38 PM, Sovera said:

That said you're not going to out-tank a Brute or a Tanker, but why would you? It's not a competition, and if it really matters you should roll one. The only thing you should fuss about as a Scrapper is stealing the agro from and keeping your squishies safe (this can be read as your genitals or your support team members so take it as you will since both answers are correct) because nothing says you -need- to be hitting that boss over there while two lieutenants are hitting your low damage Controller buddy while he tries to whittle them down.

This is the most sensible answer. Why take a square scrapper and try to hammer it into a round hole? Scrapper is for DPS and a little bit of sweeping. You *can* do other things, but at what point do you hamstring your primary role to do so?

 

The other thing to think about when teaming is that nobody is thinking, "Oh, I'll invite this Scrapper and they will fill the Tank hole." No, they are thinking, "I'll invite this scrapper and it will up our kill speed with their great damage output."

 

Certainly, do not neglect your armors, but focusing on them at the expense of your damage just seems to say maybe just play a tanker.

[Heraclea]

On Victory I had a spines/willpower scrapper that made an adequate tank for most ordinary circumstances.  I slotted up the slows in everything, especially Quills.  Once mobs got into the briar patch they found it hard to leave. 

[Rathulfr]

Maybe I'm missing something but... Isn't "tanking scrapper" (or "scrapping tanker") kind of the definition of Brute?  Why settle for RNG crits when you have more consistent DPS with Fury?  A Brute is truly the best of both worlds, isn't it?

 

[Vulgaris]

Well it's not just "crits VS no crits" but you have to remember brutes ability base damage is lower,  which doesn't seem like a big deal- But might actually be more important than their fury mechanic as a whole once you start factoring in extreme cases. And the RNG become a little less RNG with ATOs does it not? But I might be basing this off of flawed research.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/caqiei/differences_between_brutes_and_scrappers_numbers/

And this is honestly just a thought experiment in general given the current meta of softcap  defense being king, and scrapper and brutes objectively getting the same values out of the box from their defensive secondaries. It's all really just more of a thought experiment at the end of the day and an exploration of a concept using the numbers at hand more than taking the role as described.
Ultimately from what I can see- The only differences between scrapper and brute survivability seems to rely on two questions

1) Are you running a set that buffs your max HP and or regen immensely?
2) Are you playing a hardcore resist only set that depends on being 90% capped?

If you answered yes to either or both- Brute wins, If you didn't- Well maybe that's when the lines get blurrier.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Vulgaris

[Haijinx]

If you just want to break alphas, any Melee class will be fine.   

 

Scrappers can sometimes tank, but not as well as a Brute or Tanker.  No Taunt, less threat, Some Secondaries without Taunt Auras, and all that.  

 

But its an aggro thing.  Not a Survival thing.  

 

[VV]

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

If you just want to break alphas, any Melee class will be fine.

 

Fixed that for ya. But, your point is dead on.

 

16 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Maybe I'm missing something but... Isn't "tanking scrapper" (or "scrapping tanker") kind of the definition of Brute?  Why settle for RNG crits when you have more consistent DPS with Fury?  A Brute is truly the best of both worlds, isn't it?

More like worst of both, but yeah.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, VV said:

Fixed that for ya. But, your point is dead on.

 

More like worst of both, but yeah.

True.  Just easier on melee classes to get there.

[Haijinx]

For example .. even exemped down to 15 for Posi 1, my stalker can break Alphas no problem.

 

But aggro sheds of me like the tide.  A brute would do better there.

 

 

 

 

[Ironscarlet]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

For example .. even exemped down to 15 for Posi 1, my stalker can break Alphas no problem.

 

But aggro sheds of me like the tide.  A brute would do better there.

 

 

 

 

You can't compare a scrapper aggro to a stalkers.

 

A scrapper has a higher threat level than a stalker. A stalker has one of the lowest threat levels especially when hide is active. 

 

After Tank and brute, scrapper and sentinels have the highest threat.

 

I have a spine/ice which can steal aggro from a brute but not from a Tank. Can I tank for a team yes because of slows and ALOT of aoe damage. Is it as good at holding aggro compare to my Tank no. Does it have cap def and res as my Tank No. Can it live threw 90% of content and take 17 enemies ( aggro cap) on at once easily heck Yes. My recomdation for scrapper tank concept wise build for threat, aoe and aggro management. You want 2 damage aura because scrappers lost most of the aura taunts in powers like chilling embrace which  had 300%taunt in brutes and Tanks but nothing in scrappers.

 

For example

Rad/bio

Spine/ice

Rad/shield

Rad/elec

Spine/elec

Spine/bio

Ice/shield 

Spine/Dark

Rad/dark

 

Also I learned this over the years put knockdown IO proc in each damage aura it helps preventing them from running.

 

Also  is someone wants to list the armors that still have taunt aura on scrappers. I think it might help the op figure out a concept.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Ironscarlet